Iosif Lazaridis: Proto-Indo-Europeans had dark hair, brown eyes, and an intermed‌iate skin tone

Granzon said:
From using Vahaduo population averages, it is clear that Italians are more related to their European brethren than they are to Iranians, whom are not European/White. Below are a few examples of indigenous European ethnic groups and their genetic compositional proximity to various Italian regions compared to Iranians. We can see that generally, Germans are much closer in terms of genetic compositional proximity to Italians than are Iranians. Even Swedes, all the way up north in Europe, are somewhat closer to Italians than are Iranians.

Europeans are related to one-another in that they are primarily made of the same unique principal genetic ancestries (European-related hunter gatherers, European/Anatolian-related farmers and Indo-Europeans). These ancestries might exist in Iran, and other regions proximal to Europe to some extent, but Iranians have significantly different principal genetic ancestries that are generally absent among Europeans.

There are some instances in which hunter gatherers and farmer populations CHG/Iran/Levantine farmers that are generally not found amongst the average European are seen in small amount amongst Europeans like Greeks/Southern Italians. That has more to do with Minoans (who had minor CHG) and a mass migration of middle-easterners into Italy/Balkans during the Imperial Roman era/alongside other instances of incursions into Europe by outsiders from the middle east. It is unrelated to Indo-Europeans.

I used the Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran because that was the most generous data point that could be used (when using other Iranian data points, they were even further from Italians than the cosmopolitan data point).

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We can see that, generally, Italians are more close to other Europeans than to Iranians. There may be some regions of Italy, more so to the south, that plot close to cosmopolitan Iranians due to historical reasons mentioned above (ex: Greek colonization of Mediterranean and carrying with them CHG/Iran_Neolithic ancestry).


The oldest known Indo-European culture was the Yamnaya. We can see that Northern Europeans are more related to them than Iranians. Greeks and Romans are unrelated to Iranians. The only relation that can be drawn is some religious/cultural practices that were brought into Iran by way of Europe by Indo-Europeans, not vice-versa.

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I take back what I had said previously regarding these types of people suffering from an inferiority complex and self-hatred. I think they just have a general animosity towards Europeans/White people that stem from rejection/jealousy/envy.
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agree at almost100% - just this: don't use the not true and not significative term of "white" -
 
Moja said:
As ancient Greek historian Herodotus mentioned in the 5th century BC, both Greeks and Persians knew about their common origin, for example he says Xerxes believed that Greek hero Perseus was the forefather of the Persians or Greeks believed that Susa, the oldest known city in Iran, was built by their ancestors.

About Parhasi people in the east of Susa, Strabo mentions the Parrhasii as the most ancient people of Greece (Book 8, Chapter 8), he also says the same Parrhasii people lived in Iran (Book 11, chapter 7).
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The only connection Herodotus makes between the Persians and the Greeks is that he claims the former took up the latter's "unnatural lust" by which he meant that Greek men had many wives and concubines. This is written within the context of Herodotus' claim that the Persians were quick to adopt foreign customs. I'm not aware of any passage where it is claimed that Xerxes himself believed that Perseus is the forefather of the Persians. It was Herodotus who made this claim, obviously inspired by Greek myths. The Greeks made up similar myths about other peoples.
 
Moja said:
The fact is that the people who really suffer from inferiority complex are South Europeans, especially Italians, I have myself said that the majority of Iranians have dark hair, brown eyes, and an intermed‌iate skin tone, like what Lazaridis said about the original Indo-Europeans, but it seems some Italians don't like to believe this thing about the people of their country and tried to prove they have a bit lighter skin color!
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The vast majority of Italians do not have an intermediate skin color. Some do and that does not exclude them from being ethnically Italian in any sense, but amongst ethnic Italians a truly intermediate skin coloration such as that commonly found in middle eastern countries is a minority and rather atypical. Most Italians are typically fair and another minority are also very fair.
 
Both ancient Greek and Iranian sources talk about a dragon who lived in the rock of Scilla/Saqila in the south of Italy, Greek hero Odysseus saved his ship by choosing to sail closer to Scylla and Iranian hero Gushtasp slayed the dragon. https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/452649

Genetic history of Calabrian Greeks reveals ancient events and long term isolation in the Aspromonte area of Southern Italy: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-82591-9 (while Steppe ancestry is greater in North Italy (~ 27%), the Iran_N/CHG-related source is more present in South Italy with the highest values (~ 29%) observed in the populations from the Aspromonte area.)

Scilla.jpg
 
Vitruvius said:
The vast majority of Italians do not have an intermediate skin color. Some do and that does not exclude them from being ethnically Italian in any sense, but amongst ethnic Italians a truly intermediate skin coloration such as that commonly found in middle eastern countries is a minority and rather atypical. Most Italians are typically fair and another minority are also very fair.
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Agreed. Just the same as any other Southern European country so, again, I can't understand this fixation with Italy.
 
I was in Turin and Milan just a couple of weeks ago and have not seen one person that could be mistaken for an Iranian. Granted, people in the Italian north tend to look more central European than their southern compatriots but even in the south, where people tend to look darker, nobody looks Iranian or Middle Eastern. I'm trying to convey my observations as objective as I can because I have a very soft spot for Italy.
 
Sure, central and southern Italy have less blue and green eyes than the Lebanese and the Moroccans (who in turn are in the same ballpark as the Northern Italians my god)... :ROFLMAO:

Anyone who's been anywhere in Italy can see those percentages are rubbish. In Italy no one considers light eyes as something unusual let alone extraordinary... Not even in the south.

Besides I've seen a ton of those maps and rarely they are in agreement. Congrats for picking the most ridiculous of them all though. Here's another one which is a synthesis of a bunch of studies possibly carried out with different methods anyway. For Italy around 30% as national average sounds spot on.

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This thread is still alive?

Awesome.
 
HereToLearn said:
Sure, central and southern Italy have less blue and green eyes than the Lebanese and the Moroccans (who in turn are in the same ballpark as the Northern Italians my god)... :ROFLMAO:
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Moroccans and Lebanese on par with half Britain as well if you notice, if the similar ratio with North Italy and South France was not already an amusing sight to die of laughters . 😂
 
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Some folks are chronically online and need to go touch grass and get real. SMH.:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 
HereToLearn said:
Agreed. Just the same as any other Southern European country so, again, I can't understand this fixation with Italy.
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The fixation is due to the fact that Italy is the father of western civilization from the influence of the Roman Empire, and since then has still yet maintained a large population and large influence on scientific and technological innovations through the rinascimento and scientific age coupled with the expansion of the culturally influential Catholic church.

Many associate Italian history with high culture and civilizational prowess, so Italy in particular often times becomes a target for individuals of MENA or Nordic extraction to coopt as if the accomplishments of the Italian people are somehow owed to these foreign/exotic population genetics. You see some of this nonsense with Greece as well, but less so with Spain or Portugal.

The reality that aDNA so far presents is that Italy's historic admixture with foreign populations is limited to ancient Greece and Anatolia which is a much different tale than many would like to acknowledge.
 
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Vitruvius said:
The reality that aDNA so far presents is that Italy's historic admixture with foreign populations is limited to ancient Greece and Anatolia which is a much different tale than many would like to acknowledge.
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Besides correct me if I'm wrong but the Anatolian Neolithic Farmers ancestral component is something shared by nearly all of Europe anyway so there's nothing peculiar in that either.
 
norbert said:
I was in Turin and Milan just a couple of weeks ago and have not seen one person that could be mistaken for an Iranian. Granted, people in the Italian north tend to look more central European than their southern compatriots but even in the south, where people tend to look darker, nobody looks Iranian or Middle Eastern. I'm trying to convey my observations as objective as I can because I have a very soft spot for Italy.
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i've been to northern italy many times, mostly the alps, and i don't particularly agree with your observation. but that aside, why would your perception of phenotypes change depending on whether or not you have a soft spot for the country?
 
HereToLearn said:
That's where you've seen Iranian-looking Italians, my "Swiss" friend? In the friggin' Alps?? :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
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not necessarily iranian but middle eastern. if you think there are literally no italians in the north that could pass as middle eastern, you have either no idea about the wide range of middle eastern phenotypes or the wide range of italian phenotypes in the north. and what is so friggin' about the Alps?

and here is an example. a peasant from the italian alps.
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You are an utter clown. The guy could pass in Central Europe, even in Switzerland (you are Swiss so you must know right :ROFLMAO:)? Go back to the Apricity and take the Iranian fool with you, fake European.
 
HereToLearn said:
You are an utter clown. The guy could pass in Central Europe, even in Switzerland (you are Swiss so you must know right :ROFLMAO:)? Go back to the Apricity and take the Iranian fool with you, fake European.
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In fact this guy might very well be a Swiss since it's in the cover of a book from Swiss authors :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

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Now go hide again New World clown.
 
HereToLearn said:
You are an utter clown. The guy could pass in Central Europe, even in Switzerland (you are Swiss so you must know right :ROFLMAO:)? Go back to the Apricity and take the Iranian fool with you, fake European.
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sure he could pass in switzerland. this guy lives almost right next to the swiss border. never said otherwise. but this was a counterexample against norberts comment. perhaps he never saw people like him or perhaps he closed his eyes because he has a soft spot for italy:ROFLMAO:

"fake european".... what is a "true european"?
 
HereToLearn said:
In fact this guy might very well be a Swiss since it's in the cover of a book from Swiss authors :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

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Now go hide again New World clown.
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it's a book from swiss authors about food/agriculture/peasants in the alps, including but not only, the italian alps. clown. his name is Ruben Lazzoni and he is from Saint Marcel as you would have found yourself if you actually tried.
 
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