Iosif Lazaridis: Proto-Indo-Europeans had dark hair, brown eyes, and an intermed‌iate skin tone

[MOESAN]

Inferiority complex is not a myth, it exists in some people and even populations. It could the explanation of some deportments on line, but we may not use this concept with too much certainty when we think to some people pny hypothesize it. So a '?' is welcome then. Sometimes, History can explain it.
I'm often against Moja interpretations but he furnishes often some docs of worth (not only pic's but ancient names, &...); I don't speak here of some pic's without too much importance.
Concerning phoenotypes (and stereotypes, often neighbours) I think, despite some closeness with Near-East, Iranians as a whole show a bit more often individuals with something "Europeanlike" in features, or something we can consider as "Europeanlike"; where from? And what about the ANE input? -
But Iran is very wide with large regions and in some parts of it we can see a trend towards a slightly darker complexion with features evoking a southern Asia input. BTW Italy regions offers differences too, as well in their localizations on PCA's, PCA's which I consider more accurate than our features and colours estimations.
+: Here we speak of today features, are they the same ones as in ancient times? Drift can occur regionally as we know.
&: even PCA's have to be looked at from farther: the "big" distances we can see in some times on Great Europe scales are very tiny (even for Southwestern Asia) when compared to East-Asians and SSA people at a world scale.

 

[HereToLearn]

^ Iranians overlapping with Northern Italians and Spaniards... The height of absurdity we are forced to endure in this thread has reached unimaginable levels

 

[Tautalus]

View attachment 17976

You can't read and interpret a PCA, what you say is an Iranian is actually a French, Iranians have a darker blue and are situated higher up on the plot, along with the Turks.

 

[Tautalus]

Moja, I see you deleted the post, however for future reference I saved the image of the PCA you posted, here it is.

 

[Moja]

Genetic relationships of European, Mediterranean, and SW Asian populations using a panel of 55 AISNPs: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-019-0466-6

PCA results on 76 reference populations:

As you see Iranians/Kurds, Greeks, Italians, ... are in the Southwest Asia (North) and Mediterranean Europe group and Hungarians, Russians, Danes, ... are in North Europe group. Southwest Asia (South), South Central Asia, North Africa, ... are other groups.

 

[HereToLearn]

Who's drawing those arbitrary "groups", you?

Even in this crackpot PCA of yours can't you see that all the Southern Europeans are much closer to the other Europeans than to Iran?

Like Tautalus said, you can't read and interpret a PCA and it's the same as the pictures that you keep posting, you are making yourself more harm than good in posting this stuff. Just give up man.

 

[Moja]

Who's drawing those arbitrary "groups", you?

Even in this crackpot PCA of yours can't you see that all the Southern Europeans are much closer to the other Europeans than to Iran?

Like Tautalus said, you can't read and interpret a PCA and it's the same as the pictures that you keep posting, you are making yourself more harm than good in posting this stuff. Just give up man.

I didn't draw anything, this is exactly the same figure as shown in a scholarly, peer-reviewed article in Nature: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-019-0466-6/figures/1

 

[Moja]

Even in this crackpot PCA of yours can't you see that all the Southern Europeans are much closer to the other Europeans than to Iran?

Look at fig.2: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-019-0466-6/figures/2

Compare Southern Europeans, like Sardinians, to the other Europeans, like Danes:

Don't fool yourself.

 

[Vallicanus]

Look at fig.2: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-019-0466-6/figures/2

Compare Southern Europeans, like Sardinians, to the other Europeans, like Danes:

View attachment 17978

Don't fool yourself.

So?

Iran doesn't need nuclear weapons...just clowns like you to melt sane people's brains.

 

[Moja]

So?

Iran doesn't need nuclear weapons...just clowns like you to melt sane people's brains.

It is clear that you are more involved in political issues than scientific issues, for this reason you actually don't like to believe that the Southern Europeans are closer to the West Asians than the Northern Europeans.

 

[Vallicanus]

It is clear that you are more involved in political issues than scientific issues, for this reason you actually don't like to believe that the Southern Europeans are closer to the West Asians than the Northern Europeans.

Southern Europeans are still distinct from West Asians. Check mate.

 

[real expert]

This thread is kinda hilarious.

 

[HereToLearn]

the Southern Europeans are closer to the West Asians than the Northern Europeans.

You don't say... Of course the Southern Europeans are closer than the Northern Europeans to the West Asians. Give this man a Nobel prize already.

Still far enough.

 

[Pax Augusta]

The Neapolitans have a saying that well describes what you are doing Moja, 'chiagne e fotte'.

On the one hand you accuse anyone who doesn't think like you of Eurocentrism, on the other hand you are trying to pass Iranians off as Europeans.

A bit pathetic, and completely off topic.

 

[Moja]

The Neapolitans have a saying that well describes what you are doing Moja, 'chiagne e fotte'.

On the one hand you accuse anyone who doesn't think like you of Eurocentrism, on the other hand you are trying to pass Iranians off as Europeans.

A bit pathetic, and completely off topic.

Europeans were/are Basques, Etruscans, Hungarians, Finns, Estonians, ... I have never said that Iranians relate to them, I'm talking about Indo-Europeans, the fact is that the oldest known Indo-European people were Hittites, Greeks, Persians, Romans, ... who lived in the West Asia and South of Europe and we know both genetically and culturally they related to each other, the problem is that you don't like to believe this thing.

 

[norbert]

How are Greeks, Romans and Persians culturally related? They aren't even the oldest Indo-European peoples. Their languages were already so far apart, they were unintelligible subbranches of IE, a progenitor already ancient from their perspective and one of which they weren't even aware of. As for culture, let's just take the Persians as an example. Even the name isn't Iranian or Indo-European for that matter. It was adopted by some nomadic Iranian peoples who invaded the area surrounding Lake Urmia, imposing their language on the natives and assimilating into them culturally and ethnically. The Persian name is derived from parahse which the Assyrians associated with the Sumerians and possibly the Urartians. Culturally all those civilisations of ancient Mesopotamia (Akkadians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Persians) are the descendants of the Sumerians. Where is the connection with the Greeks and Romans?

 

[Granzon]

From using Vahaduo population averages, it is clear that Italians are more related to their European brethren than they are to Iranians, whom are not European/White. Below are a few examples of indigenous European ethnic groups and their genetic compositional proximity to various Italian regions compared to Iranians. We can see that generally, Germans are much closer in terms of genetic compositional proximity to Italians than are Iranians. Even Swedes, all the way up north in Europe, are somewhat closer to Italians than are Iranians.

Europeans are related to one-another in that they are primarily made of the same unique principal genetic ancestries (European-related hunter gatherers, European/Anatolian-related farmers and Indo-Europeans). These ancestries might exist in Iran, and other regions proximal to Europe to some extent, but Iranians have significantly different principal genetic ancestries that are generally absent among Europeans.

There are some instances in which hunter gatherers and farmer populations CHG/Iran/Levantine farmers that are generally not found amongst the average European are seen in small amount amongst Europeans like Greeks/Southern Italians. That has more to do with Minoans (who had minor CHG) and a mass migration of middle-easterners into Italy/Balkans during the Imperial Roman era/alongside other instances of incursions into Europe by outsiders from the middle east. It is unrelated to Indo-Europeans.

I used the Iranian_Cosmopolitan_Tehran because that was the most generous data point that could be used (when using other Iranian data points, they were even further from Italians than the cosmopolitan data point).

We can see that, generally, Italians are more close to other Europeans than to Iranians. There may be some regions of Italy, more so to the south, that plot close to cosmopolitan Iranians due to historical reasons mentioned above (ex: Greek colonization of Mediterranean and carrying with them CHG/Iran_Neolithic ancestry).

Europeans were/are Basques, Etruscans, Hungarians, Finns, Estonians, ... I have never said that Iranians relate to them, I'm talking about Indo-Europeans, the fact is that the oldest known Indo-European people were Hittites, Greeks, Persians, Romans, ... who lived in the West Asia and South of Europe and we know both genetically and culturally they related to each other, the problem is that you don't like to believe this thing.

The oldest known Indo-European culture was the Yamnaya. We can see that Northern Europeans are more related to them than Iranians. Greeks and Romans are unrelated to Iranians. The only relation that can be drawn is some religious/cultural practices that were brought into Iran by way of Europe by Indo-Europeans, not vice-versa.

I take back what I had said previously regarding these types of people suffering from an inferiority complex and self-hatred. I think they just have a general animosity towards Europeans/White people that stem from rejection/jealousy/envy.

 

[Power]

i have read the thread a little and want to give my 2 cents and also would like to say some things about my people the Kurds additionally

iranians are diverse . it is a huge country after all

the problem is that iranians can have elevated south asian . like on harappaworld persians are often 6-8% s.indian (which peaks in tribals from india who are basically dark brown to black skinned and heavily non west eurasian) and some can go up to 14% !

a forum friend and me analysed the s.indian component from harappaworld and came to the conclusion that when you have more than 5% it will not rarely have an effect on phenotype while below 5% especially below 3% will most of the time not have any effect

the reason why there are south asian looking iranians is this reason . they have elevated south asian in them

but many iranians at the same time are not like that . i have met many iranians in my life and they are a lot "whiter" than many of you would think . so it really depends on the iranian ....some are exotic looking others are not .

anyway we Kurds we are not like Iranians . we dont have south asian admix . our average s.indian score is 2.22% . so basically nothing . i have calculated this with 66 Kurdish kit numbers

thats one of the reasons why it is wrong to say "kUrDs AnD iRaNiAns" because we are different . in fact many iranians look different from Kurds . this is the truth . i have often been hated on for saying this but it is the truth .

and this is how Kurds look like :

DNA tested Kurdish faces . basically DNA CONFIRMED Kurds :

thread on Eupedia :

DNA tested Kurdish faces


please also check out these :

Italic Roots-FACES OF DNA TESTED / DNA CONFIRMED KURDS . this is how real / actual Kurds look like . non gypsy . passify us pls

allright so now : as you know i have posted THOUSANDS of Kurds already in the Kurdish gallery thread . to see them click here : kurdish-people-t762

www.tapatalk.com

full gallery with THOUSANDS of Kurds :

Italic Roots-The Kurds . Kurdish people gallery

hi . this is a kurdish gallery thread I will post a lot of photos and videos of kurds . most are kurmanji kurds and some are zaza people . they are

www.tapatalk.com

regarding the overlap with europeans . when you look into the threads about Kurds i just linked you you will notice that Kurds have a pretty decent overlap with europeans . and no i didnt cherrypick anything . i have posted thousands of Kurds and even dna confirmed Kurdish faces . so if you have the smallest thought of accusing me of cherrypicking just keep it to yourself please because it is bs

that being said we are still as groups distinguishable from europeans . and we are uniformly darker than any place in europe even the most fringe regions .

oh and before i forget . we have a lot of gypsies and arabs in Kurdish regions who larp as Kurds . and there are also Kurdish + Gypsy and Kurdish + Arab , Kurdish + Turkmen etc. mixes in Kurdish regions . real / actual Kurds who dont have such admix look like what you see in the threads i provided . if you want to know more about gypsies in Kurdish regions etc. then ask me if you want but i will not say much more about it in this post to not make the post unneccesarily longer than it already is

Kurds have been very misportrayed and also darkwashed for a long time and people have a wrong idea / image of Kurds in their heads .

please leave us out if you talk about iranians . we are not the same . it is a myth that "Kurds and Iranians" are very similar

 

[Moja]

How are Greeks, Romans and Persians culturally related? They aren't even the oldest Indo-European peoples. Their languages were already so far apart, they were unintelligible subbranches of IE, a progenitor already ancient from their perspective and one of which they weren't even aware of. As for culture, let's just take the Persians as an example. Even the name isn't Iranian or Indo-European for that matter. It was adopted by some nomadic Iranian peoples who invaded the area surrounding Lake Urmia, imposing their language on the natives and but assimilating into them culturally and ethnically. The Persian name is derived from parahse which the Assyrians associated with the Sumerians and possibly the Urartians. Culturally all those civilisations of ancient Mesopotamia (Akkadians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Persians) are the descendants of the Sumerians. Where is the connection with the Greeks and Romans?

As ancient Greek historian Herodotus mentioned in the 5th century BC, both Greeks and Persians knew about their common origin, for example he says Xerxes believed that Greek hero Perseus was the forefather of the Persians or Greeks believed that Susa, the oldest known city in Iran, was built by their ancestors.

About Parhasi people in the east of Susa, Strabo mentions the Parrhasii as the most ancient people of Greece (Book 8, Chapter 8), he also says the same Parrhasii people lived in Iran (Book 11, chapter 7).

 

[Moja]

The oldest known Indo-European culture was the Yamnaya. We can see that Northern Europeans are more related to them than Iranians. Greeks and Romans are unrelated to Iranians. The only relation that can be drawn is some religious/cultural practices that were brought into Iran by way of Europe by Indo-Europeans, not vice-versa.

View attachment 18003

As Dr. Paul Heggarty said those who themselves proposed the Steppe hypothesis and believed Yamnaya was the oldest Indo-European culture have retreated from this hypothesis.