New migration map of haplogroup R1a1a

[Fire Haired]

i looked at eupedia all they mentioned was diversity they ignored the fact that the oldest from what i have seen are almost always found in Europe. Also the west asian they used kurds who are indo Iranian as their example for R1a diversity well of course their indo European plus they have indo european subclades from what i know. They say indus valley but do they realize indus valley was dominated by indo Europeans for 3,500ybp they keep ignoring those facts.

 

[Fire Haired]

Dude, are you in denial? Gobekli Tepe is a ritual BURIAL made with an intention = KURGAN. It predates all another Kurgans = ritual BURIALS made with an intention by at least 7000 years. Ofcourse unsophisticated burials/Kurgans in the steppes differ a little bit with ancient Kurgans in West Asia.

Foragers were influenced by a highculture from West Asia, but even 8000 years later they couldn’t improve Kurgans in Gobekli Tepe!

a indo european krugen is diff. those are not like indo european kurgen.

Burial mounds are complex structures with internal chambers. Within the burial chamber at the heart of the kurgan, elite individuals were buried with grave goods and sacrificial offerings, sometimes including horses and chariots. Kurgans were used in the Ukrainian and Russian Steppes but spread into eastern, central, and northern Europe in the 3rd millennium BC.

u war the only one saying its a kurgen non of those experts said that i would know the world would know that there is a 12,000 year old kurgen in turkey. thatwowuld change the whole idea of indo europeans. on wikpedia but of course this time u will say it is not a good source it says the oldest krugens are 6,000 years old one in the north caucus one in southeastern poland. ur picture is not a kurgen.

 

[Fire Haired]

dude, light blue line is the OLDEST.

i know but the red is R1a1a proto Indo European had R1a1a1b so this is its grandpapa and its in europe. also what suprises me what the heck is it doing in spain. look at what maciamo says and other people the oldest are found in Europe i trust thyat it totally makes sense with the indo europeans in the steppes. r1b went through the caucus from the mid east and r1a was already in the steppes.

 

[Goga]

i know but the red is R1a1a proto Indo European had R1a1a1b so this is its grandpapa and its in europe. also what suprises me what the heck is it doing in spain. look at what maciamo says and other people the oldest are found in Europe i trust thyat it totally makes sense with the indo europeans in the steppes. r1b went through the caucus from the mid east and r1a was already in the steppes.

First of all R1a islike R1b from Central Asia OR the maybe the Iranian Plateau. Because the ancestor and sister clade R2* also have been found in that area. Eupedia doesn't deny that the orginal R1a is from that area. The point is that according to Eupedia a specific clade of R1a, R-M17 was evolved somewhere in the Steppes. But Eurpedia seems to forget that they're also other 4 theories about the origin of that subclade. Eupedia doesn't know that Later (Bronze age) Steppe culture hypothesis of R-M17 is no longer incompatible with other theories.

About Later (Bronze age) Steppe culturehypothesis: "However, in recent discussions of this theory it isconsidered only to apply to a part of R-M17, making this theory no longerincompatible with other origins theories for R1a more broadly defined (Underhill 2009)." : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA)

About West Asian origin: "A Middle Eastern origin for R-M17 has long beenconsidered a possibility, and is still considered to be consistent withknown data (Underhill 2009, Regueiro 2006, Kivisild 2003, and Semino2000)" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA)


Light hair can be also come from mtDNA (females) and NOT Y-DNA at all. My uncle (full Kurdish) is married 2 times. He has got brown hair. Children from his first wife all have brown to dark blond hair, but the son from his second wife has got RED hair.

 

[Fire Haired]

i do agree it seems to that one source r1a* is in the mid east. I defintley consider its origin there it posibly migrated there with r1b to the steppes juust other stuff i have looked at says it is from Europe. The iNDo European language though spred out of the steppes throughout Europe and asia.

 

[Goga]

a indo european krugen is diff. those are not like indo european kurgen.

Kurgans in the Steppes are different because another a less sophisticated ethnic group (foragers) build those Kurgans.

 

[Goga]

i do agree it seems to that one source r1a* is in the mid east. I defintley consider its origin there it posibly migrated there with r1b to the steppes juust other stuff i have looked at says it is from Europe. The iNDo European language though spred out of the steppes throughout Europe and asia.

R1a subcladesin Europe are MUCH older than subclades of R1b. According to me it's possible that some ancient R1a in Europe arrived in Europe with the Neolithic farmers.
Also, it's possible that SouthAsia (North India) was Indo Europized by tribes from CentralAsia, but my point is that we still don't know by whom those (R1a) Central Asians were Indo-Europized.
PS, you can have the last word. Such discussions are exausting!

 

[Yetos]

ur article never mentions a kurgen burail trust me maciamo the head of this website and a complete generous would know about this he would be huge news. there is no 12,000 year old kurgen in Anatolia. a kurgen is a special type of burail not just a burial the oldest human remains are buried but not in a kurgen.

first you must answer this 4 questions,

1) Layla teppe is the mother civilisation of Maykop?
2) Tocharians were they Anatolians?
3) why in IE we find Summerian vocabulary similar to most IE languages? (even in Irish)
4) In Varna we find the first Gold Mettalurgy and burial rituals much before than in Kurgans? why?

The suggestion of Macciamo that R1b enter Eurasian steppe from Anatolia solves many questions, but still lucks in Balkans.

 

[Fire Haired]

First of all R1a islike R1b from Central Asia OR the maybe the Iranian Plateau. Because the ancestorsand sister clade R2* also have been found in that area. Eupedia dean;t denythat the orginal r1a os from that are. The point is that according to Eupedia aspecific clade of r1a, R-M17 was evolved somewhere in the Steppes. But Eurpediaseems to forget that they’re also other 4 theories about the origin of thatsubclade. Eupedia doesn’t know that Later (Bronze age) Steppe culture hypothesis of R-M17 is no longer incompatible with other theories.

Ur right R2 is in around pakistan and iran. R1 seems to have originated there. U know R1* today is still found in native Americans and siberians it is in the mongloid family Caucasins got it through inter marriage probably 25,000ybp. Eupedia say orignal proto Indo European R1a1a1 M417 is in northeast Europe also that German speakers have a son R1a1a1a which spread there from the steppes while Balto Slavs and Indo iraniens have R1a1a1b which also spread there from the steppe.

also there is about 5% north euro aust DNA in indo iranien spekers that non Indo Iranien speakers around them dont have. Also the oldest indo Iranian remains where european.

About Later (Bronze age) Steppe culturehypothesis: "However, in recent discussions of this theory it isconsidered only to apply to a part of R-M17, making this theory no longerincompatible with other origins theories for R1a more broadly defined (Underhill 2009)." : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA)

there only evidence is diversty we have ancient DNA modenrn DAn in indo european speakers they for some reason ignore our evidence.honestly it is like those guys like to be boring and agree with whatever seems most unlikley.

About West Asian origin: "A Middle Eastern origin for R-M17 has long beenconsidered a possibility, and is still considered to be consistent withknown data (Underhill 2009, Regueiro 2006, Kivisild 2003, and Semino2000)" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA)

Light hair can be also come from mtDNA (females) and NOT Y-DNA at all. My uncle (full Kurdish) is married 2 times. He has got brown hair. Children from his first wife all have brown to dark blond hair, but the son from his second wife has got RED hair.

light hair and eyes is not passed down through mtdna or y dna. also Kurdish having red hair is huge evidence of european origin of the indo Iranian language also i told u about 3,800 year old indo Iranians they mainly had light hair and eyes which is why it exists in modern indo irniens in Asia. also indo Iranians like Sytheins where known for red hair and we have two over 3,000 year old indo Iranian redhead mummies in west china.

Herodotus wrote about an enormous city, Gelonus, in the northern part of Scythia^[49]
The Budini are a large and powerful nation: they have all deep blue eyes, and bright red hair

chinese paintgs of tocherian buddhist monk in 6 century ad we have tocherian writting they where for a fact indo iranien.

tocherians where conquered by a turkish tribe in 700ad but still many people from that trukish tribe today look european here is a example

kalalsh redhead pakistan

 

[Fire Haired]

first you must answer this 4 questions,

1) Layla teppe is the mother civilisation of Maykop?
2) Tocharians were they Anatolians?
3) why in IE we find Summerian vocabulary similar to most IE languages? (even in Irish)
4) In Varna we find the first Gold Mettalurgy and burial rituals much before than in Kurgans? why?

The suggestion of Macciamo that R1b enter Eurasian steppe from Anatolia solves many questions, but still lucks in Balkans.

1. Layla teppe was made by hunter gathers in central trukey 11,000-12,000ybp. maykop where farmers and bronze makers in the north caucus many miles away and existed from 5,700-4,500ybp after the being of indo european languages and way way after Layla teppe no way can u assume they are related they are not.

2. There is no evidence of Tocherians being Antolian they where very well known for red hair and light eyes.
tocherian buddhist monk 600ad he is the one with red hair

Also Indo Iranian languages culture ancestral culture is Yamna which was in the steppes we have 6,000 year old DNA from yamna scientist have not released full results all they said is they where white and had mainly brown eyes. also 3,800 year old indo Iranian remains had mainly light hair and eyes there is no doubt geneticalley they had a European origin meaning they came from the steppe not Anatolia. Also there is a trace of European aust dna in indo Iranian speakers that does not exist in their neighbors like Kurdish have 5% north euro in globe13 aust dna test Assyrians who live right next to them have 0%.

3.I dont know how true what ur saying is but i wonder if that mean sumerian is related to Indo European. Because they did not speak a semetic language possibly they came north from there near the caucus where R1b spread to the steppes from. Possibly this also means Indo European language began around the caucus with R1b P297.

4. so what it is still not a kugren.

no maciamos new map makes alot more sense it swent through the southern steppe to the balkens to western europe and turkey which is where hittites come from.

also the strong connection with red hair and r1b l11.p310 in western europe points to a european origin not antolian. also since red hair was popular in indo iraniens who migrted from the steppe. also red hair today is 15-20% in udmurts who live in volga Russia a area where yamna culture existed. also udmurts speak a uralic language yamna culture was conquered by uralic cultures 5,000-4,000ybp their remains ahd mainly brown eyes just like udmurt so they most likely mainly decend from very early indo european yamna culture and steppe people spread red hair with indo european languages.

also maciamo oriignally said it went from the steppe to turkey but it first came from the steppe.

 

[Yetos]

1. Layla teppe was made by hunter gathers in central trukey 11,000-12,000ybp. maykop where farmers and bronze makers in the north caucus many miles away and existed from 5,700-4,500ybp after the being of indo european languages and way way after Layla teppe no way can u assume they are related they are not.

2. There is no evidence of Tocherians being Antolian they where very well known for red hair and light eyes.
tocherian buddhist monk 600ad he is the one with red hair

Also Indo Iranian languages culture ancestral culture is Yamna which was in the steppes we have 6,000 year old DNA from yamna scientist have not released full results all they said is they where white and had mainly brown eyes. also 3,800 year old indo Iranian remains had mainly light hair and eyes there is no doubt geneticalley they had a European origin meaning they came from the steppe not Anatolia. Also there is a trace of European aust dna in indo Iranian speakers that does not exist in their neighbors like Kurdish have 5% north euro in globe13 aust dna test Assyrians who live right next to them have 0%.

3.I dont know how true what ur saying is but i wonder if that mean sumerian is related to Indo European. Because they did not speak a semetic language possibly they came north from there near the caucus where R1b spread to the steppes from. Possibly this also means Indo European language began around the caucus with R1b P297.

4. so what it is still not a kugren.

no maciamos new map makes alot more sense it swent through the southern steppe to the balkens to western europe and turkey which is where hittites come from.

also the strong connection with red hair and r1b l11.p310 in western europe points to a european origin not antolian. also since red hair was popular in indo iraniens who migrted from the steppe. also red hair today is 15-20% in udmurts who live in volga Russia a area where yamna culture existed. also udmurts speak a uralic language yamna culture was conquered by uralic cultures 5,000-4,000ybp their remains ahd mainly brown eyes just like udmurt so they most likely mainly decend from very early indo european yamna culture and steppe people spread red hair with indo european languages.

also maciamo oriignally said it went from the steppe to turkey but it first came from the steppe.

1) Leyla teppe in arts , technology, burial rituals is considered as mother of Maykop.
Leyla teppe people moved to Maykop, is a fact.

2) I speak about Tocharian Mummies, they were R1a, but Tocharian language belongs to the Anatolian branch with Hettit. Tocharians were an Anatolian/ minor-Asian south-West of Layla teppe population that moved to Steppe, is a Fact. just search the time.

3) Summerian is an isolated language, probably a language of farmers. yet in IE, even in far enough we see some connectivity, that is either cause due to farming Booming in Neolithic times, either cause IE before the entrance to Maykop pass from fertile crescent, (combine it with Gedrosian component,)

4) Burring the dead with Arms, daily things, in position with crossed hands is a Varna culture, a balkanic one,
the Gold in Tomps starts from Varna/Vinca passes to Anatolia / minor Asia. and passes to steppe.
Before 10 years we all believe that Golden burial masks was an Egyprian custom, and Myceneans took it from them today we know that went from Balkans (Vinca/Varna) to Egypt. is a fact


As you see the only evidence of IE language being a North of Caucasos steppe language is just the arsenic bronze road. is a fact, that passes from Caucas to North of Black sea to Cotofeni Vatin Vucocar.
But the fracture does not quide us in Steppe of Eurasia, but in Maykop Caucasos (Gibutas).
but considering Maykop as a Layla teppe colony we solve all previous questions even the Gedrosian component, in far away IE speaking populations.

your only answer is that if IE speakers were steppe people, they learn all their techonology, rituals, way of life and took Gedrosian comp. from Maykop and spread it to Europe and India, meaning that kurgans is not a IE culture mark, but only Arsenic bronze.


BESIDES IE WERE NOT HUNTERS GATHERRERS, BUT ROAMING STOCK BREEDERS.

A good spark to start thinking is R1a diversities in Aimos peninsula (Balkans),
We all admit that is sink phenomenon,
but if it is not? how many scenarios can be done, and how many collapse?

things are more simple, yet more complicated,
after the discoveries of leyla teppe, varna, and linguistics of tocharian, Kurgan theory is not enough, to find the origin of IE speakers, and Arsenic bronze road is just an indicator of Europe's comquer by IE speakers.

Yet we do not know the language of Vinca or varna speakers, we asume that did not spoke IE by working the changes of IE language, (glottochronology)

 

[Fire Haired]

1) Leyla teppe in arts , technology, burial rituals is considered as mother of Maykop.

Leyla teppe people moved to Maykop, is a fact.

Leyla teppe culture existed 6,350-6,000 years ago in the central caucus many Russian archilogist have suggested it is ancestral to maykop culture. Indo European like cultures where in the steppes by that time like i said 6,000 year old kurgen in southeast poland.

2) I speak about Tocharian Mummies, they were R1a, but Tocharian language belongs to the Anatolian branch with Hettit. Tocharians were an Anatolian/ minor-Asian population that moved to Steppe, is a Fact. just search the time.

then why where the tarium mummies a mix of white european and east asian. they had no signs of a west asian origin. also the indo european kurgen cultures that migrated to asiai 5,000-4,000ybp which they came from came from Russia not antolia. Sinishta culture or Afanasevo culture

the full blooded European R1a people from near by south Siberia and from a similar culture had mainly light hair and eyes proving they are not Anatolian also they had specifcalley european mtdna haplogroups like U5 and U2(found in 31,155ybp remains czech republic, U2 found in 37,985ybp remains russia). plus how much r1a is there in Anatolia anyways.

No one knows what language family their in they may be more related to Anatolian languages. also they where known for red hair just like Indo Iranians in Asia like Sycthiens also there where heavy Indo iranien settlements in that area for about 4,000-4,500y years. they where most likely indo Iranian or a brother language to indo iranien.

3) Summerian is an isolated language, probably a language of farmers. yet in IE, even in far enough we see some connectivity, that is either cause due to farming Booming in Neolithic times, either cause IE before the entrance to Maykop pass from fertile crescent, (combine it with Gedrosian component,)

i have heard about this Gedrosian component i would like to learn more. Indo Iranien language and Balto Slavic languages are traced from Yamna culture which could expplain why they have brother R1a subclades also why Cporded ware culture remains had R1a and why early Indo iranien cultures remains had R1a they did not come from antolia or west asia they came from russia.

4) Burring the dead with Arms, daily things, in position with crossed hands is a Varna culture, a balkanic one,
the Gold in Tomps starts from Varna/Vinca passes to Anatolia / minor Asia. and passes to steppe.

As you see the only evidence of IE language being a North of caucas steppe language is just the arsenic bronze road. is a fact, that passes from Caucas to North of Black sea to Cotofeni Vatin Vucocar.
But the fracture does not quide us in Steppe of Eurasia, but in Maykop (Gibutas).
but considering Maykop as a Layla teppe colony we solve all previous questions even the Gedrosian component, in far away IE speaking populations

can u explain more

 

[zanipolo]

i have heard about this Gedrosian component i would like to learn more. Indo Iranien language and Balto Slavic languages are traced from Yamna culture which could expplain why they have brother R1a subclades also why Cporded ware culture remains had R1a and why early Indo iranien cultures remains had R1a they did not come from antolia or west asia they came from russia.

Gedrosian is eastern Iran ( Persia) on the coast..............part of west-asian admixture

 

[Fire Haired]

Gedrosian is eastern Iran ( Persia) on the coast..............part of west-asian admixture

how is it connected with indo europeans

 

[Maciamo]

It's really remarkable that a large amount of Indians are part of such a subbranch.

And it's not remarkable that over 80% of Irish, ancient Britons (before the Germanic migrations), Atlantic French and northeast Spaniards descend from an even deeper branch of R1b ?

 

[Sennevini]

And it's not remarkable that over 80% of Irish, ancient Britons (before the Germanic migrations), Atlantic French and northeast Spaniards descend from an even deeper branch of R1b ?

That's even more awesome ;p

 

[MOESAN]

But there's no EVIDENCE for it, that S224 is from Europe at all! Taranis meant L664...

I am tempted to follow the thesis of a central asian origin of the most modern R1a at calcholithical times (at that time, but not the last SNPs born later) and a split among descendants of this stage, a Eastern Europe branch and a South Asian branch, brothers spite of that - the high variance among S-Asiatics R1a could very well be explained (as already said) by demic explosion, so by number and not by old age (the very very downstream position of the majority of S-Asiatics ones points at that too) - very hard to be sure but I think for now that AND geography AND /history linguistic point at this direction...
I would be very glad if someone could tell me the comparative diversity of R1a in Europe and central-south asia locations (Indies-Pakistan-Afghanistan-Kirghizistan etc...) CONCERNING SNPSs and NOT STR VARIANCE ONLY

 

[MOESAN]

GOGA
by the way, Caucase populations are on the dark side for pigmentation, even if variable (no dominantly fair population, rather dark ones, but as a whole not as dark as some mediterranean populations -
some females exchanges having taken place between neighbouring population at old times, autosomals cannot check to closely the Y-DNA distributions, but autosomals poolings show something as 7-8% of northern europe component in Georgians and 30-34% of northern europe componant among Lezghins, so... (I believe that as a whole, this component is in reality stronger among Georgians: (what sample from where?) -I think first Caucase populations were not that fair pigmented...
Armenians show differences in pigmentation according to region(I have not the DNA distribution corresponding to these regions, helas)

 

[Yetos]

Leyla teppe people moved to Maykop, is a fact.

Leyla teppe culture existed 6,350-6,000 years ago in the central caucus many Russian archilogist have suggested it is ancestral to maykop culture. Indo European like cultures where in the steppes by that time like i said 6,000 year old kurgen in southeast poland.



then why where the tarium mummies a mix of white european and east asian. they had no signs of a west asian origin. also the indo european kurgen cultures that migrated to asiai 5,000-4,000ybp which they came from came from Russia not antolia. Sinishta culture or Afanasevo culture

the full blooded European R1a people from near by south Siberia and from a similar culture had mainly light hair and eyes proving they are not Anatolian also they had specifcalley european mtdna haplogroups like U5 and U2(found in 31,155ybp remains czech republic, U2 found in 37,985ybp remains russia). plus how much r1a is there in Anatolia anyways.

No one knows what language family their in they may be more related to Anatolian languages. also they where known for red hair just like Indo Iranians in Asia like Sycthiens also there where heavy Indo iranien settlements in that area for about 4,000-4,500y years. they where most likely indo Iranian or a brother language to indo iranien.



i have heard about this Gedrosian component i would like to learn more. Indo Iranien language and Balto Slavic languages are traced from Yamna culture which could expplain why they have brother R1a subclades also why Cporded ware culture remains had R1a and why early Indo iranien cultures remains had R1a they did not come from antolia or west asia they came from russia.



can u explain more

for first there is a thread in forum,

Gedrosian component is something found in high numbers in most R1b populations with IE origin,
while lucks in R1a population


for second find the Varna Necropolis archaiology founds and results,

Vinca/ Varna is the place that Gold mettalurgy started ever,
Vinca/Varna/Mycenae (pre IE) burial ritual is the first who used golden mask to cover face (Not Egyprtians) and the first who put dead with crosshands and burry him with his arms,

It was from Balkans that went to Egypt and Anatolia, meaning that some rituals in Kurgans in Asia were not steppe culture but transmited by Vinca to Anatolia to Kurgans


to conclude,

Tocharian R1a carriers spoke Anatolian IE (Indo-Hettit theory? not Greco-Aryan, neither Armenian hypothesis)
IE R1b carriers carry also Gedrosian component,
means Yamnaa is not the homeland of IE languages.

in an ancient post before start to think like today,
I said that only by watching the map of IE speakers, and concerning that Tocharians were R1a, what we need R1b?

but after Gedrosian component, seems like R1b's role is important, while we can speak also about J2 HG.

From Ireland to East parts of Iran in IE R1b populations we find gedrosian, but not in r1a.
the role of J2 is under search and discuss.

Just imagine an Irish with R1b to have Gedrosian while a R1a from geographical of Yamnaa to have not,
would you still be so fanatic with Yamnaa as homeland of IE language? when Gedroian component road to Europe passes from Leyla teppe?

 

[Vedun]

It is clearly visible from genetic maps (i can not post any links yet on this forum), how the western R1b population literally wiped out / stopped spread of Slavic Y patrimonial haplogroup R1a and its subclade R1a1a, which is today mostly frequent among current Russians, Polish, Slovak, Slovene men (Slavs). The same thing happened in Germany under the Teuronic Christian Ordo, which started a genocide against all old Slavs. The only remain, memory from the old past are current Sorbs. The rest of the men were assimilated (Gothicized) into the new community.