Religion Jesus could not be the SOG(Son of God)

[Tsuyoiko]

I am 100% satisfied with my relationship with the creator.

This is important, although it can be difficult for a non-believer to grasp. I don't believe in your god, Sabro, but I believe in your relationship with him. Whether the person (being, whatever) exists has no bearing on the reality and quality of that relationship. Any attempts to prove that god doesn't exist or isn't responsible for the Bible, creation, whatever, aren't going to work until that relationship comes into question. If the relationship is fulfilling you are going to doubt anything negative said about that god, in the same way someone in a fulfilling marriage would doubt someone who criticised their spouse - and even if they accepted the criticisms it wouldn't always harm the relationship.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

This is important, although it can be difficult for a non-believer to grasp. I don't believe in your god, Sabro, but I believe in your relationship with him. Whether the person (being, whatever) exists has no bearing on the reality and quality of that relationship. Any attempts to prove that god doesn't exist or isn't responsible for the Bible, creation, whatever, aren't going to work until that relationship comes into question. If the relationship is fulfilling you are going to doubt anything negative said about that god, in the same way someone in a fulfilling marriage would doubt someone who criticised their spouse - and even if they accepted the criticisms it wouldn't always harm the relationship.

Well said, Tsuyoiko! Even persons in the Nazi regime felt they had great relationships with their higher ups and even with Adolf himself. Convincing them is often futile. The best one can hope for is that those who are on the fence of falling their way are swayed by the opposing view that their belief is True or even good. However, like you hinted at, when these people through something like a personal crises or when they feel like their God has let them down, that is the time that some arguments they hear against their belief may come gnawing back and nudge them even further. If and when all that comes to fruition just depends on how deeply indoctrinated they are. Some are just tough nuts to crack.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Convincing them is often futile.

Exactly. If someone is in a relationship that has a positive effect on their life, it is not going to benefit anyone to try to persuade them otherwise. We should respect their right to enjoy that relationship, and mind our own business!

 

[strongvoicesforward]

Exactly. If someone is in a relationship that has a positive effect on their life, it is not going to benefit anyone to try to persuade them otherwise. We should respect their right to enjoy that relationship, and mind our own business!

Minding our own business would be easy if they minded their own business. But, they actively proselytise. Can`t even tell you how many times I've been accosted on the street by Christians or while sipping some tea or coffee at an outdoor cafe. Doesn`t look like they are minding their own business. They actively recruit.

Besides, there are many on the fence who have not made up their minds and like to hear the different sides of the argument either for or against the Bible. Many enjoy to hear the two sides going at it directly and brother Sabro types are the perfect sounding boards. It really is much bigger than brother Sabro.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Minding our own business would be easy if they minded their own business. But, they actively proselytise.

I think you are very much coming at this from personal experience. Since in your experience Christians proselytise more often than not, you seem to assume that that is the case in general. In my experience it is not the case. The last time I was approached by a Christian in the street was about six weeks ago. I simply said "No thank you" and he smiled and walked away. Before that it was months ago. In the UK, I find that most often, evangelists are not persistent. If you make it clear you are not interested they move on, rather than 'flog a dead horse'. I get much more annoyed by mobile phone companies or market researchers ringing me or giving me leaflets in the street - that happens at least once a week, usually twice or three times - and they are much harder to get rid of.

 

[Mycernius]

I think you are very much coming at this from personal experience. Since in your experience Christians proselytise more often than not, you seem to assume that that is the case in general. In my experience it is not the case. The last time I was approached by a Christian in the street was about six weeks ago. I simply said "No thank you" and he smiled and walked away. Before that it was months ago. In the UK, I find that most often, evangelists are not persistent. If you make it clear you are not interested they move on, rather than 'flog a dead horse'. I get much more annoyed by mobile phone companies or market researchers ringing me or giving me leaflets in the street - that happens at least once a week, usually twice or three times - and they are much harder to get rid of.

I have a feeling that the approach of Christianity within Europe compared to the US and to some part Canada are different. Tell an English JW or Mormon you do not believe and they will ask a few question, but invarible leave you to your own beliefs and usually part on best of terms. There have been occassions when I have met with American JWs and Mormons that have come to the UK and they seem to be more fanatical about their religion. Woe be tide anyone who criticises their God or they Bible. You also get the impression that Christianity is taken more seriously within North America. TV evangelists with their huge rallies, a conservative christian in the Whiteshouse and the division of State and Church becoming more blurred. Thing that do not really happen in Europe. Fair enough we do have a God channel on cable, but it is pay for view, and the odd evangelist, but on the most part they are ignored or left to their own little worlds of meglomania. Sometimes I can see why strongvoicesforward is so vehement in his criticism of Christianity. The society is more agressively christian and anyone who rejects it is probably more aggresive in his views against christianity. If it was Islam he would probably attack it in much them same way, but seeing that Islam is not agressive in the US the way that Christianity is then he will not attack the Quran as he wasn't exposed to it on a regular basis. Just a theory, but it makes sense to me.:wave:

@Tsuyoiko: You want to get BT to screen your calls against phone selling. We did and the amount of telesale calls went down dramatically.

 

[No-name]

Thanks guys, I appreciate what you are saying and I don't like to be harassed any more than the next guy. And for the "prosletizing" I'm certain that every Christian has some natural reticence about approaching strangers. But a lot of us go through a "tell everyone" phase and some churches require it. I just got a TIVO and I want to tell everyone how good it is, but I will avoid trying to sell that message to total strangers. If you guys are happy being godless athiests, more power to you. I haven't bugged you about it and I won't unless you ask.

Tsuyoiko, I think I understand what you are saying and I appreciate that.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

I think you are very much coming at this from personal experience. Since in your experience Christians proselytise more often than not, you seem to assume that that is the case in general. In my experience it is not the case.

Tsuyoiko, of course it is from a personal experience as to how I handle it and my life. It is also from observation and hearing the many same kind of experiences from others I know and have met. Surely, my life and experiences are not yours.

Are you implying I should come at it from your experience?

If you make it clear you are not interested they move on, rather than 'flog a dead horse'.

In my experience that is not often the case. Often, they have been and are rather persistant.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

Yes, Mycernius -- you hit the nail on the head. All obvious observations and good analysis of it all.

There have been occassions when I have met with American JWs and Mormons that have come to the UK and they seem to be more fanatical about their religion. Woe be tide anyone who criticises their God or they Bible.

That is right! Now, atheists or agnostics, or anyone who doesn`t like this can all just sit back, suck it up and let the cult get stronger and stronger or one can resist it actively. Just smiling and saying no thanks and walking away is no victory. That is just defense. ONe never winds on defense. And, if you are on defense all the time with regards to Ancient Cult Superstitions, they will grow because they are proselytising in nature.

Mycernius pointed out how the bluring of State and religion is underway -- well that would increase even more as the Cult spreads to more and more people.

... the division of State and Church becoming more blurred.

I agree. We now even have the X Cult trying to get Intelligent Design in public schools. Nice to have judges logically knocking that down. But, don`t think it could always be such.

... or left to their own little worlds of meglomania.

And if they got stronger, they would become bolder and their meglomania could easily touch us all. History is not sealed off from the future.

Sometimes I can see why strongvoicesforward is so vehement in his criticism of Christianity. The society is more agressively christian and anyone who rejects it is probably more aggresive in his views against christianity.

Good observation.

If it was Islam he would probably attack it in much them same way, but seeing that Islam is not agressive in the US the way that Christianity is then he will not attack the Quran as he wasn't exposed to it on a regular basis.

Exactly! Well said.

Just a theory, but it makes sense to me.

Indeed. If I though the Koran and Islam were inching its way into our culture and laws and belief systems, and I grew up in an environment that caused me to be quite familiar with that book thus giving me the intimate knowledge and ammunition to knock it down for the falsehood and superstition that it is, I would target that one. Most indeed.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Tsuyoiko, of course it is from a personal experience as to how I handle it and my life. It is also from observation and hearing the many same kind of experiences from others I know and have met. Surely, my life and experiences are not yours.
Are you implying I should come at it from your experience?
In my experience that is not often the case. Often, they have been and are rather persistant.

Speaking for myself, I try to approach things from as objective a viewpoint as possible. I recognise that my own point of view does not represent reality as a whole, so I try to look at all the different viewpoints and take an average. I think that is the best way to avoid bias and improve accuracy.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

Speaking for myself, I try to approach things from as objective a viewpoint as possible. I recognise that my own point of view does not represent reality as a whole, so I try to look at all the different viewpoints and take an average. I think that is the best way to avoid bias and improve accuracy.

I do, too. But, then after that I am decisive and can decide, not sitting on the fence forever and can call fraud for what it is without worrying about being politically correct or hurting someone's sensitive feelings.

However, a person's life will always affect their view. It might not affect their actions -- something they can forcibly control, but the inner voice will dance with their views based on their life`s experiences. You seem to admit that and that is why you insert "try," into your reply. Correct me if I am wrong if my saying your use of the word "try" admits that there is that pulling from experiences that can influence how we come at things.

 

[No-name]

So, do you "try?"...are you objective or not? Do you try to see the viewpoints of others and can you see your own objectively OR are you stuck with your own strong voices? Which is it? You can't be both. You can't sit on the fence with this one.

 

[Kinsao]

Wow. I just read through this whole thread, and now my eyes are going round, like that mad smiley that I'm not going to use because such things are not appropriate to serious discussion threads.
*lowers nose*

I would love to comment, and I feel somehow that I have things to say, but to be completely honest with you, a lot of this discussion has gone totally over my head. Because I can't shut up, I'm checking in (not that anyone is interested in whether or not I'm reading this thread <<), but, well, I'm thick, OK?

Why is Sabro san the only Christian currently defending his views on these various religious threads? Surely there must be some others that can put there points over.

I would have gotten involved at the beginning, but I was away from the forum, and am now proceeding to jump in at the deep end and sink without trace.

To take something right from SVF's original post:

John 18:23 "If I said something wrong," Jesus replied, "testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?"

Why does Jesus object to being struck? Why didn`t he accept it happily and offer the other cheek to be struck?

I agree with the answer Sabro had given. He was asking the question to make the man think about why he had done that. Isn't it a more effective technique to make someone think about their own words/thoughts/actions, than just to oppose them with saying 'you're wrong!' or to say nothing?

The only way you get blood and water as described is if the person were dead for a bit and the blood had began to settle and separate.

I know the blood and water thing is a bit of a while ago now (and not wanting to flog a dead horse) but one thing that occurred to me is that Jesus' lungs would probably have filled with fluid after hanging on the cross for several hours in that position. That is something that could have accounted for 'blood and water' that come out of the wound.

Perhaps the preaching of fear of going to hell is a strong inducement to ancient people to believe something. It still is today. I would guess it would have been amplified back then. Sometimes fear just over rides reason.

It is something I often hear said, that many people are only 'religious' because they have been told to fear going to hell. This is rubbish. Surely the best way to avoid a fear of hell is to decide that hell (and hence heaven, God, etc. etc.) doesn't exist at all. Hey presto! Problem solved. The idea of believing in something because it promises the chance of forgiveness and new starts is a lot more appealing than believing in something because of fear of hell. If anything, I think hell is a pretty big inducement not to believe!

Xtians indoctrinate (a polite word for brainwash) their children from a very early age.

Not true, period.

Sorry this isn't more intelligent, but I don't have the capacity for better debatement, so that's all you're going to get from me. Deal with it.

 

[No-name]

Ooooooh. We stand in the presence of greatness.
I believe Mr.Forward has been school yet again.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

Ooooooh. We stand in the presence of greatness.
I believe Mr.Forward has been school yet again.

Yes, yes, yes, ...we know. I am "rebuked" again.

No, I am not great. Just someone who is trying to crack a tough nut. Deprogramming is hard, you know.

 

[No-name]

Could you try to answer my questions from #152?

The greatness was in reference to Kinsao- who among others, has seen through you thin, bitter tirade.

 

[kumo]

It is something I often hear said, that many people are only 'religious' because they have been told to fear going to hell. This is rubbish.

It's certainly not rubbish for many christians, especially fundamentalists.

Surely the best way to avoid a fear of hell is to decide that hell (and hence heaven, God, etc. etc.) doesn't exist at all. Hey presto! Problem solved.

Yes, just like christians don't believe in the islamic and ancient greek hell so they don't have to be afraid of it. Suuuure...kashii:

The idea of believing in something because it promises the chance of forgiveness and new starts is a lot more appealing than believing in something because of fear of hell.

Indeed. Christians like to play the "traumatized life" card™ a lot when explaining why they believe, but for some reason they "forget" to say a few things: most times their story is either a huge exaggeration or simply lies; they already were christians before their "trauma", and most times before they even knew how to speak.

If anything, I think hell is a pretty big inducement not to believe!

After all, we all want to be tortured for eternity for not believing, right?

Not true, period.

True, period.

 

[No-name]

Before I crossed the line of faith, I was a straight "A" student, a young Republican....no drugs, no trauma, didn't kill anyone... I was only 15 at the time, and I had been considering and thinking and debating my waning atheism for about two years. I'm not sure fear of hell played much of a part at all.

 

[kumo]

Before I crossed the line of faith, I was a straight "A" student, a young Republican....no drugs, no trauma, didn't kill anyone... I was only 15 at the time, and I had been considering and thinking and debating my waning atheism for about two years. I'm not sure fear of hell played much of a part at all.

So why exactly did you become a christian? Weren't you happy before that? And if not, why did you think the solution was religion and not a more "conventional" treatment (a psychologist, for instance).

Sorry if this is too personal..

 

[No-name]

Thanks for the question kumo.

I don't know if I had a problem that I wanted solved-- I guess asside from being poor and a band geek, I really wasn't terribly unhappy. I never even considered a psychologist. I was however overcome by a real sense that there was more than my dialectical materialistic existence- that the God that created me was real. Regardless of how I examined my existential question- the answers I kept arriving at contained a supreme being. It was something true that I had denied and tried to supress, but I had to admit in the end that I believed. My family at this time was split between socialists and conservatives-- none of whom are remotely religious, so it was a quest for answers that I was free to pursue on my own.I found my answers in the Bible. Christianity became the avenue that I used to meet this God.