Religion Jesus could not be the SOG(Son of God)

[Pachipro]

Who listens to Pat Robertson? Pat Robertson is not my God and he does not represent me, my way of thinking or any rational human I know.

You may not heed his word, but countless thousands of "Christians" the world over do and believe every word he says as the word of "god". Or else he would not be in business hawking his lies to this day.

Therefore, I ask you, who is to be believed? He claims to be a scholor of the bible and to truly know the word of "god" and have his ear. If he is not to believed then why are we (no criticism of you intended here sabro as I believe you are a true spiritual person) to believe that you or your church or the catholic church, or the protestant church, or the church of England, or even, the King James' version of the bible is correct? (And why is it "his" version? What makes him so correct and others wrong?)

If one man (Pat Robertson), who claims to have god's ear is wrong, why not all? If you say he is wrong and no one listens to him why is he so popular? Does your church have a worldwide TV audience? Why are there so many preachers and evangelists today saying that they are right and every one else wrong? That is what drove me from organized religion. I have heard Christians say, trying to get me into their church, that those who belong to such and such church are "not true christians". Then, damit, (no offense to you sabro) tell me who is a true christian and what really is the word of god? No one has been able to satisfactorily answer me. They just gloss over it with rhetoric and tell me I need to have faith.

Well I may have faith if all were on the same page, but they are not and are all in competition to get your money first. "Send me money and I will heal you and put in a good word to God. Buy my water as it is blessed by God." I hear it every week while scanning the stations on TV. All are liars IMO. Jim and Tammy Fay Baker convinced me of that.

(I think he is an alien in disguise.)

:bravo: :note: :lol: :evil:

 

[No-name]

I don't know much about the TV crowd. I try to ignore them. People with loud voices and polyester suits...I don't really trust, but nor do I waste my time with it. Up here on my mountain, there are at least a dozen good churches- Evangelical, Lutheran, Catholic-- big and small churches-- each with its own women's groups and prayer chains and food ministries- with its own way of meeting and music and teaching styles-- I would say that these are the true Christians. If you want to find Christians, look for those who are doing the work and reflecting the character of Christ. (Or at least seem to be trying.)

Like I said before, if you don't like organized religion, you are in good company. Either did Jesus. (Come to my church one Sunday, nobody ever accused us of being organized.)

 

[PRIZMATIC]

P.S. :angel: All this dispute - between "believers" and "realists" - only superfluous reminder about " our Babylon "... The God comes at times not there where him "search"... and there, where in him require... The God does not require our "Belief", not our "Souls"... We are free in it... It we require "Him"... If " to clean verbal vanity ", all we (both believers and realists) search for "belief"... And so " zealous worry of texts of the Bible " - only " the latent pray " our souls to the God (for realists - to the Universe...) that "He" has opened to us himself... I and would like to tell: " listen the sound of clap one palm ....................................................................... And having heard " greatness of silence ", you will understand why " the God " is keep silent ...:angel:

 

[Mars Man]

Splitting Off

Of course I will follow, and may post at times, here, on this thread, but will split off my #76 and points related to the comments and further clarification that it drew to the 'Bible not the word of god' thread; a more proper alignment of it than on this 'Jesus not son of god' thread.

See you all !:wave:

 

[strongvoicesforward]

I took the verse on face value.

So, when Jesus speaks to her, you think there are really children with litteral bread in their hands and dogs milling around (or something like that), right?

And does that mean you also view her answer as her seeing dogs at that moment jump on bread that has been dropped on the floor from the table?

You don`t see any metaphores or analogies in this verse? All that which is described is happening in the real time at the moment???

 

[Tsuyoiko]

So, when Jesus speaks to her, you think there are really children with litteral bread in their hands and dogs milling around (or something like that), right?
And does that mean you also view her answer as her seeing dogs at that moment jump on bread that has been dropped on the floor from the table?
You don`t see any metaphores or analogies in this verse? All that which is described is happening in the real time at the moment???

Are you suggesting that there is one correct way to interpret that verse?

 

[strongvoicesforward]

Are you suggesting that there is one correct way to interpret that verse?

There are many ways to interpret it. Whether that way one chooses is correct or not is a different matter.

I was just trying to clarify your view of the verse with my questions to you above.

So, are you answering "yes," or "no," to the questions above?

 

[Tsuyoiko]

There are many ways to interpret it. Whether that way one chooses is correct or not is a different matter.

So you are suggesting that there is one correct way to interpret it?

 

[strongvoicesforward]

So you are suggesting that there is one correct way to interpret it?

Is there only one answer to 2+2?

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Is there only one answer to 2+2?

Are you implying that interpretation of the Bible has the same standards of true and false as mathematical axioms?

 

[strongvoicesforward]

Are you implying that interpretation of the Bible has the same standards of true and false as mathematical axioms?

At any point in time, something is true or not true. A person is either pregnant or not pregnant. 2+2 has either one answer or several. The Bible is either the WOG or not. A thing is either a metaphore or real.

Interpretations can be divorced from the truth. The truth is not dependent on interpretations. Do you think it is?

Tsuyoiko, I know you think I am trying to trap you with those questions above about the dogs and bread -- but really, I am not. I am just wondering if you were taking even the dogs and bread as actually happening and not as a metaphore since you stated that you took it at "face value." I was just trying to confirm a statement that you said.

I would venture to say, though, that probably most, even biblicists would view Jesus' words posed to her as metaphores and analogies. I have never read any interpretation that said children were around and dogs were trying to get bread dropped on the ground. I just think you are in a very small minority if that is how you are reading it. But, I will leave you to that interpretation if you will. However, it is by far viewed by most as a metaphore or an analogy -- much like Jesus' "cup" (fate) he prayed to pass from him. Everyone knows he wasn`t holding a real cup and hoping that it would pass away from him. Do you take that scene as face value, too? -- that he is actually holding a cup?

 

[No-name]

http://www.psybersquare.com/me/me_back_white.html

"When small children are learning to use words and organize their thoughts, it is normal and expected for them to see and express their world in very black and white terms. When a young child feels they are not loved, they feel they must be hated. When a child feels his or her parents don't pay enough attention to them, that child will say, "You never pay attention to me." Developmental psychologists call this primitive thinking."

 

[strongvoicesforward]

Developmental psychologists call th...o swallow "fish stories" for a rational mind.

 

[No-name]

Trip...
lol! I would call "primitive thinking" believing in superstitions such as the Bible as the WOG.
Yes, primitive books based on a man made god of primitive thinking has a person staying alive for 3 days in a big fish and a number of other hard to swallow "fish stories" for a rational mind.

Does this merit a response?

 

[Tsuyoiko]

At any point in time, something is true or not true. A person is either pregnant or not pregnant. 2+2 has either one answer or several. The Bible is either the WOG or not. A thing is either a metaphore or real.

That's very simplistic. Ask the question early enough and there's no way to determine if a person is pregnant or not pregnant - for the first few days after the egg is fertilised I would argue they are neither, at least until the egg has implanted. 2+2 has several answers, depending on which base you are working in - for example, in base 3, 2+2=11 (I think. Bases make my brain ache). The Bible may or may not be the word of god, depending on what you mean by god - but that's already been done to death. A thing may be a metaphor, or real, or a bit of both at the same time - but only really clever poets can do that.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

That's very simplistic. Ask the question early enough and there's no way to determine if a person is pregnant or not pregnant - for the first few days after the egg is fertilised I would argue they are neither, at least until the egg has implanted.

It is simple, Tsuyoiko. Whether you want to play with semantics and call it "pregnancy" or "fertilized" then so be it. All you have done is rewritten the question without providing a way out. It then becomes: Is an egg fertilized or not? Whether we can determine it or not is independent of the truth. The truth does not hinge on our knowledge of it. It is or it is not.

2+2 has several answers, depending on which base you are working in - for example, in base 3, 2+2=11 (I think. Bases make my brain ache).

Clever. Well, the base is in this universe where we reside. If you want the base to be 3 in a different universe in a multiverse, then fine. However, we only know for certain that the Bible exists in our universe. In that base 2+2=4

The Bible may or may not be the word of god, depending on what you mean by god - but that's already been done to death. A thing may be a metaphor, or real, or a bit of both at the same time - but only really clever poets can do that.

Well, I am arguing what the common perception of God is meant by from the Xtian perception. Perhaps brother Sabro would like to define God -- or give us his perception or what he thinks most Xtians mean by God when the word is employed.

 

[No-name]

I can't possibly define God. Theologians debate and write huge books about this, and there is no way I could fit this in a post.

I don't know any Xtians,and I have never been to Xtia, so I couldn't possibly tell you what they percieve or what they mean by God when the word is employed. Perhaps a field trip to that land is in order.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

Why should you have faith in BGod? His Book lies and breaks the promises it offers.

Mark 9:23
'If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes."

Mark 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

The BWOG is telling you that everything is possible for the believer and that what you ask for will be given to you.

Jesus prayed and asked that the fate he knew was in store for him would not come to pass:

Matt 26:39
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

Jesus was crucified. His request, the one he most hoped for by showing a need to overtly request it be granted, was not answered. Sure, he hedged and said, "as you will," but He still asked if it were possible to get out of his duty.

Here we have God praying to God knowing the reason why he was sent in the first place, knowing the outcome already, and already existing in a state of it having been done, praying for something that he hopes will not be done -- all this with the future of billions of souls on line depending on him doing exactly what he was sent to do.

Remember, God is omnipotent. He exists everywhere at all times -- past, present, and future. How could God be constrained? Why would he even consider, knowing his mission and the result, thinking about asking his ?ecup?f to pass from him? Doesn`t he know that our souls were all depending on his sacrifice? If he loved us so much, why would he try to weasel his way out of it? Surely billions of souls were more important than a few hours of hanging on tree, nailed to it --- errrr ---- or was it a cross (the bible is not clear on that either). He should have gone gladly with a smile on his face.

I would guess that there have been some people throughout history who have faced an execution with a smile or faced their death with focused determination as they defended a loved one or children. If they knew that that is what must be done to protect their loved one, they wouldn`t try and weasel their way out of it if it meant death for their loved ones.

Now, if mere mortal men can fight resolutely without wimpering and trying to weasel their way out, or face an execution with a smile, knowing they are dieing for the better good, why couldn`t the alleged SOG do the same?

The point is, Jesus is allegedly God, He knew there was no other way. Why the dramatics and hoping for a way out? Everything was not possible for Him -- eventhough his book tells us it is. If so, then Jesus could have been spared the suffering and execution and at the same time all could be redeemed through another less violent way. But, that was not possible because the Bible God, eventhough trying to turn over a new leaf in the Hijacked version -- is nonetheless still Angry Bible God who lusts for blood.

Obviously, he was not God -- just merely a poor Jew man about to be executed for being a trouble maker.

Why have faith in a trouble maker, loser, and a book of false promises and lies?

 

[Sensuikan San]

Slightly off-topic. Aside.

Obviously, he was not God -- just merely a poor Jew man about to be executed for being a trouble maker.
Why have faith in a trouble maker, loser, and a book of false promises and lies?

Why indeed! And I totally agree.

But I am intrigued ... and extremely interested ... in just why it should be of (what seems to be) so much importance to you, SVF.

... If you're not offended ... it's just a straight question, to satisfy my own interest.

Is it a philosophcal question to you, or something of a more personal nature?

We're all family here.

?W????

 

[strongvoicesforward]

Why indeed! And I totally agree.
But I am intrigued ... and extremely interested ... in just why it should be of (what seems to be) so much importance to you, SVF.
... If you're not offended ... it's just a straight question, to satisfy my own interest.
Is it a philosophcal question to you, or something of a more personal nature?
We're all family here.
?W????

Hi John,

Like you are intrigued about my reasons, I, too, am intrigued that people could subvert their reasons. You were intrigued enough to ask me, right? Well, that is almost parallel of my same thoughts; I am so intrigued by people who see an oasis in a desert when one doesn`t exist, I feel compelled to inquire about it. But, knowing that it does not exist, I feel it a duty to go a step further and try to point out to them that it does not exist -- rather than just asking them why they believe it there.

There is nothing personal about it -- other than I just personally do not like fraud. I also do not like favoritism. I don`t see why a particular money making org not required to show proof of what they offer should be given a non-taxable status.

I look at history and I see the terrible things done by religion and the coercion it forces people into. Just look at some of the Islamic countries and see how whole parts of society are forced to lead lives based on some interpretation of the Koran. Do you think a lady in Kandahar is free to stop wearing all Islamic dress and strike up conversations with strangers on the street of the opposite sex?

Some may say, "well, that is in Islamic societies and in the West or democracies and Xtian societies, such things do not happen." Well, my answer to that is: Not now -- because the pendulum has swung and religion has lost a lot of its political power. But, who is to say that the pendulum could never swing back? It most certainly could. I don`t think it prudent to be so naive to the possibility. Why not knock the legs out of the Book that supports such superstitious beliefs while we have the freedom to do so? If the pendulum did swing back, do you think we would be able to criticise the bible then? I don`t think so. Look what happened to Salmon Rushdie for saying some unflattery things about Islam?

Wherever there is superstition that can be interpreted any way by any one to support their own motives, there will always be the possibility for violence and suppression of freedom based on and justified by those beliefs. If we can throw those things decidedly into the trash while we have the chance, it would be much better. Don`t you think it better to be pro-active rather than reactive. It is always easier to get the momentum when one is pro-active taking the fight to the opposition rather than waiting to react all the time in the defensive position. One just does not win in the defense. The offense is what carries the victory.

I doubt if any wars will ever be based on beliefs or stories from Zeus and the greek pantheon of gods. That is because they have been assigned to myth. It would serve all if these other religions which can`t prove what they offer are also set in the library shelves right next to those other ancient myths.

FYI, I was raised a Xtian. My whole family is Xtian. It is not a rebellious thing against my family. It is just a pure interest in truth and exposing falsehood and getting satisfaction in moving people along the spectrum of their beliefs. I guess that could be considered personal in some aspect -- but it is not based on a grudge for some wrong or something like that.

I wasn`t offended by your question. Have I satisfied your interest in asking for my reasons?