Religion Jesus could not be the SOG(Son of God)

[Tsuyoiko]

Whether we can determine it or not is independent of the truth. The truth does not hinge on our knowledge of it. It is or it is not.

That's true of some knowledge, but not all. The Earth would orbit the sun whether we knew it or not. But what about at the quantum level? Our search for knowledge on that realm certainly interferes with 'truth'. What about subjectivity? Is there a 'correct' way to read a novel, or view a painting, or understand a Zen koan? If we do not grasp the artist's intention, does that make us wrong?

On the subject of metaphors. What is the purpose of a metaphor? Aside from aesthetics, isn't it either to elucidate or obscure meaning? Can we perceive that meaning without apprehending the metaphor? If so, the question of whether a metaphor was intended or not is moot. Can I empathise with Kafka's bug-boy without understanding that Metamorphosis is a metaphor for alienation? Is that even the metaphor? Some critics claim that it is a metaphor for the concept of metaphor. Who is right? Does it matter? I can enjoy the story, and understand Gregor's situation just by taking the story at face value.

@ Matthew 7 - is this passage a metaphor? Very probably, although we can't know absolutely for certain. Is seeing the metaphor necessary for understanding the underlying message? Almost certainly not. We have three opinions here on what the passage means:

Tsuyoiko: I didn't know about the metaphor. I understood the passage to mean that Jesus wanted to determine the moral character of the Gentile woman, on which his decision to help would depend.

Sabro: He knew about the metaphor. He understood the passage to mean that Jesus wanted to determine if the Gentile woman was worthy of his attention.

SVF: You knew about the metaphor. You understood the passage to mean that Jesus was harsh, unfeeling, uncompassionate and a poor role model.

Which of these meanings are similar? Which of these meanings is correct? Is the meaning dependent on the metaphor?

 

[Mycernius]

Is there only one answer to 2+2?

No, there isn't. Tsuyoiko used bases to prove that 2+2=4. Whatever base you use the value is still the same, so it isn't a good example ie 100=4 in bianry, but there is still only 4 items. A better example where the value changes is in physics and pulling forces. If 2N (Newton) and 2N are pulling in the same dirction the answer is 4, but if 2N is pulling opposite to 2N then the answer is 0. If they are pulling at 90 degrees to each other the answer is 2.83 (Trig). So in that case 2+2=2.83. Basic physics I learnt at school proving that 2+2 doesn't always equal 4.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Just another thought:

He who asserts has the burden of proof. One does not prove a negative. One proves a positive. If someone thinks that an autographa existed, then they are under the obligation to prove it.

SVF, replace the word 'autographa' above with the word 'metaphor'. Can you prove it?

 

[strongvoicesforward]

Our search for knowledge on that realm[quantum] certainly interferes with 'truth'.

Could you give me an example?

What about subjectivity? Is there a 'correct' way to read a novel, or view a painting, or understand a Zen koan? If we do not grasp the artist's intention, does that make us wrong?

Subjectivity would not determine the truth. That is just a perception of something.

With your thought on that point, Tsuyoiko, Nazis could say it was Truthful or right that they exterminated the Jews. Why not? It is subjective, isn`t it.

Sorry, but the Truth is independent of subjectivity and perception. The world exists whether someone is there to observe it or not.

Would you say that my refusing to admit the Grand Canyon exists would make that True in some real aspect? Sure, in my mind. But, if someone were to guide me to its edge and told me to walk -- I would kill all truth with my death as I hit the bottom of a very real canyon.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

Just another thought:
SVF, replace the word 'autographa' above with the word 'metaphor'. Can you prove it?

I can`t prove it because a "metaphor" exists as a mental construct. It is not something we can touch or feel. The only way we could prove it were a metaphore would be if we had Jesus in front of us to ask him if it was.

Admittedly, I have to leave it there for readers themselves to decide if the story in which Jesus is talking about "bread and dogs" is a metaphore. Most skeptics and even most Biblicists accept that it is given metaphorically to the woman so that she would either stop bothering Jesus, or in order to coax an answer or understanding of something that Jesus was trying to get across to her.

Skeptics seem to think he we engaging in some verbal jousting with her on semantics and metaphors but then finally gave in to her logic which convinced him. But, that episode, to us, outlines his racism and favoritism.

Brother Sabro and other Xtians have a different view.

However, you are the first I have seen to suggest all that was said then was in fact litteral.

Let the reader decide. My not being able to prove that it was a metaphor does not rescue the verse or the Bible from the image it is portraying itself to be.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

The world exists whether someone is there to observe it or not.

I already said that in post #121 - that the Earth would orbit the Sun whether we knew it or not. I'm not saying there is no objective reality. I am saying that whether or not there is an objective reality is sometimes subjective. You are asserting a positive, so the burden of proof is on you

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Skeptics seem to think he we engaging in some verbal jousting with her on semantics and metaphors but then finally gave in to her logic which convinced him. But, that episode, to us, outlines his racism and favoritism.
Brother Sabro and other Xtians have a different view.
However, you are the first I have seen to suggest all that was said then was in fact litteral.
Let the reader decide.

Exactly! You finally understand what I have been trying to say! There is no objective truth about what that passage means - it is up to each individual to take their own meaning from it.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

Exactly! You finally understand what I have been trying to say! There is no objective truth about what that passage means - it is up to each individual to take their own meaning from it.

Of course you are right technically, Tsuyoiko.

The majority of people however do not believe it as you see it. Like the majority of people no longer believe in Zeus. That is what skeptics are trying to do. To get the majority of people to move on the spectrum of their beliefs -- away from what we see and feel to know as myth.

I will leave open a one and 10 trillion google possibility that the Bible could be the WOG. But, I would not live my life or hold my beliefs on what is highly improbable. Until Jesus comes down a smotes my hiney or does a miracle in front of my face in all his glory, I am quite right and reasonable to say he does not exist or in all likelihood does not exist.

Like you and I agree -- it is all up to the reader. But don`t forget, it is not only the skeptic who are championing their view and interpretation of the bible to the undecided masses -- it is also the biblicists. We are locked into a battle of persuading the other side. After a long time of researching and hearing the arguments, few still say they are undecided. Eventually, most people will say they either believe in the Bible or not. Sure, some will say they believe in some of it, but not all -- but many do completely reject it.

I was one of those. I read the Bible, read apologist literature, went to church, even at a few points in my life considered myself to be a Xtian -- but in the end, after also reading Freethinking literature, rejected it.

Yes, it is up to the reader. But, the reader is moved by those on the different ends of the spectrum.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" -- Thomas Jefferson (Works, Vol. iv, p. 365).

Yes, a fable indeed. Thank you, Tom, for weighing in on the matter a couple hundred years prior.

 

[No-name]

Thomas Jefferson created a version of the bible with all the miracles edited out. It may fit your 'theology" and it is still available.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

Yes, I know. And I also know that the Bible has some harsh words for those who add or subtract things from it.

Thomas Jefferson admits to the virtuous teachings of many things in the Bible. However, he seems to rail at the thought of the fable stories of Jesus coming from God and all that superstion which is wrapped up in something like a Zeus or Fairy God King.

Then again, many other individuals had good teachings, too. Bhudda comes to mind at the top of my head. Again, just men with good ideas but not being conceived by virgins and ghosts that knock girls up while they are asleep.

That reminds me of date rape with knocking someone out with some powerful affect. What? Mary just wouldn`t be able to handle the Holy Ghost in a waking state?

Why do so many of these ancient people have so many dillusional messages come to them while they were in dreams? Perhaps the superstitions of dreams held too much power over them. They just couldn`t rationally explain what dreams were. Best to explain it someway rather than just admitting they don`t know what it is or honestly observing a dog moving its leg in its sleep and concluding it must be dreaming like I do. Surely God isn`t talking to a dog. Perhaps my dreams are similar -- of my self and not of something else.

Probably the ego got in the way of that thought. Afterall, in all probability, man created God in his image rather than the opposite.

 

[No-name]

It seems as if your major disappointment with God is that he is not more in your image. When you find a religion that does meet your expectations and standards...stick with it.


And again you show some crude misunderstanding of scripture. Perhaps you should switch to the Koran for a while. Since the Koran is in its original Arabic, you need not worry about translations.

 

[Sensuikan San]

....... I wasn`t offended by your question. Have I satisfied your interest in asking for my reasons?

Fair enough. A straight question ... and a straight answer.

... and yes, ... I see it as a reasonable answer.

Thank you for your candour.

?W????

 

[strongvoicesforward]

Perhaps you should switch to the Koran for a while.

lol. Perhaps, brother Sabro, you should "switch" on your reason. It does have a purpose, you know.

Mine told me a long time ago the Tooth Fairy, Santa Clause, and the Easter Bunny were not real -- as is the Fairy God King of the Bible also is not real.

Rip off the bag that has been pulled over your eyes. You are in the grown-up version of believing in a 'Santa Clause.'

Yes, indeed -- "Switch" is a good thing -- so long as it is towards reality.

 

[No-name]

Actually I have no problem with my Bible and my God. I have to say that I am 100% satisfied with my relationship with the creator.

I probably have you to thank in part. I'm going through a difficult stretch right now that I couldn't imagine enduring without my faith. Normally just the sheer weight of such junk would make me question God, but arguing with you has solved that: You are unhappy and disatisfied because you question God- the way scriptures are, the way they don't measure up to your expectations, the way they don't fit your reality. But with me I have discovered the opposite. How could I believe and follow and be content when things are good and then questions and doubt when times get tough. He is still God. He has not forgotten me, nor has he fallen asleep. I would pray that you find some contentment and peace in your life, but I gather you are not the praying type.

 

[PRIZMATIC]

P.S.....Now many stays in "movement"... And "Belief" a haven of our souls in these future changes...:angel:

 

[strongvoicesforward]

Actually I have no problem with my Bible and my God. I have to say that I am 100% satisfied with my relationship with the creator.

A lot of people throughout history have been satisfied with the wrongs they supported and found "no problem" with despotic regimes they were apart of, no matter what atrocities they were committing.

I probably have you to thank in part.

You`re welcome, brother Sabro.

I'm going through a difficult stretch right now that I couldn't imagine enduring without my faith. Normally just the sheer weight of such junk would make me question God, but arguing with you has solved that:

How?

You are unhappy and disatisfied because you question God- the way scriptures are, the way they don't measure up to your expectations, the way they don't fit your reality.

I am quite happy and satisfied, brother Sabro. I have a beautiful wife, care for wonderful dogs, paint, write, am healthy, a world view based on reality, a respect for all life that leads me to not oppress any of it, etc...

Xtians, such as what you are doing now, like to charge that and think others are unhappy just because they aren`t deluded like themselves. It is hard for them to imagine anyone could be happy without having a "personal" relationship with a dead Jew from 2000 years ago. Get over it. We can and are happy without all the weight of the dogmatic beliefs that Xtians carry around. I WOULD BE unhappy if I had to carry around all that dogma.

By God, you mean Bible God, right? I am not questioning BGOD, because BGOD does not exist. If he did exist, then I might question him. But, I would no more question him than I would a wall.

But with me I have discovered the opposite.

Yes, those not grounded in reality do often see the opposite of us who are. Many psycologists will tell you that.

How could I believe and follow and be content when things are good and then questions and doubt when times get tough?

Delusion is a strong force to overcome. Many just can`t, no matter how many times they get hit over the head. But gratefully, some do get cured of delusion and move away from the thing which had caused them. On the internet you can find some testimonies of ex-Xtrians and see how they came to move away from the delusions. Very interesting, indeed. If you get the time, do a search and find some. Could help you.

He is still God. He has not forgotten me, nor has he fallen asleep.

Of course he hasn`t forgotten you or fallen asleep. BECAUSE -- Bible God does not exist. It takes a living thing of sorts to "forget" or "fall asleep."

Does Santa Clause forget who is good or naughty? Does Santa Clause fall asleep? Only between the covers of fictional books.

I would pray that you find some contentment and peace in your life, but I gather you are not the praying type.

I am content, but admittedly, there are more things in life I would like to do and obtain to help friends and family and to improve my life.

"Peace?" hmmm...well, I do wish my dogs would stop barking at almost every truck that drives by our house. That could make things more peaceful around here. But, they are getting better at that; before it was every truck -- now, every other truck.

"Prayer?" Sometimes in my inner voice, a dialogue runs with me praying my wife doesn`t see the Starbaks cup in the RAV4, because she will know I went there and didn`t bring her back a coffee.

 

[No-name]

Well I haven't supported any despotic regimes that I know of.

And I am happy that you say you are happy. It just seem like from the posts you are angry and bitter. I would also say that your posts show a large degree of black and white thinking and a high degree of intolerance for ambiguity and uncertainty. I have found people with these traits often tend to be frustrated and are occasionally obsessive perfectionsists. But you can't really tell from a few posts. I don't tend to go around attacking people and their personal beliefs, but some people get off on that kind of stuff.

I don't carry around much dogma at all, and it doesn't weigh on me at all. Perhaps the hatred and bitterness you carry for Christianity is far heavier than any dogma.

I am certain your Bible god does not exists. I checked my Bible, and he's not in there. I have spoken to the real God about him, and he assures me that your construct is absolutely fictitious.

Your dogs are doing a wonderful job. They believe they have protected you from all sorts of horrors. Perhaps one day the trucks will realize they are wrong and will stop passing by.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

Well I haven't supported any despotic regimes that I know of.

Do you give money Christian orgs? Angry Bible God seems pretty despotic to me. Supporting orgs that base their beliefs on his Kingdom in Heaven doesn`t seem to be supporting democracy.

BTW, why doesn`t Bible God believe in democracy? Why does he have to rule heaven as a king? Why not throw it open for democratic elections? If he is so great, then he would have nothing to fear about re-election all the time.

And I am happy that you say you are happy.

And I am sorry for all those who say they are not being duped by charletons and delusion based on superstition.

It just seem like from the posts you are angry and bitter.

Yes, I know. Internet text can lead people to "seem" things that aren`t really how they are. For example: It just seems like from your posts you are delusional and into superstition with fear from the real world.

I would also say that your posts show a large degree of black and white thinking and a high degree of intolerance for ambiguity and uncertainty.

You are right in that I don`t like people who worm and weasel their way out of corners by giving meanings to words that are not the norm (miracle = overcoming the odds of 80% against something).

Black and White exist, as well as grey. However, trying to cause black and white to be grey is deceptive.

I have found people with these traits often tend to be frustrated and are occasionally obsessive perfectionsists.

I find honest people who call things for what they are to be calm and well adjusted. I find people who believe in fiction as reality disappointed and frustrated.

But you can't really tell from a few posts. I don't tend to go around attacking people and their personal beliefs, but some people get off on that kind of stuff.

First of all, I am not "attacking." Are you going to start up with that again? I am discussing and debating against what I see as fraud. You might want to consider it "prosecuting." There is a difference and I would accept the latter description of what I am doing.

It does give me satisfaction to know I am exposing lies, deception and falshoods. Though, it isn`t all fun. Deprogramming is hard work. And, I do it for free!

I don't carry around much dogma at all, and it doesn't weigh on me at all. Perhaps the hatred and bitterness you carry for Christianity is far heavier than any dogma.

I am sure that when we burden others with our weight, it takes some of the load off of us. Pitty the children indoctrinated into their parents' superstitions.

I don`t hate believers in superstitions and cults. I pitty them. I do, however, hate the lies that trap them.

I am certain your Bible god does not exists. I checked my Bible, and he's not in there.

Yes, I don`t have a Bible. It doesn`t exist. Yours does. And in the covers of your Bible you will find a Devil God that created evil -- albeit, all fictional. Belief does not make it real.

I have spoken to the real God about him, and he assures me that your construct is absolutely fictitious.

So, now you are having conversations with him, huh? Why don`t you record some of them or invite a TV crew to tape these conversations? Of course, you know as well as we do, that is just your inner voice in an ongoing running self conversation.

Are you saying the God of Muslims is a false god? Are you saying all are false except for yours? Yours condemns all others for their beliefs in false gods.

Your dogs are doing a wonderful job. They believe they have protected you from all sorts of horrors. Perhaps one day the trucks will realize they are wrong and will stop passing by.

I hope not -- because I need the garbage trucks to come and pick up the garbage. I also like hot showers supplied from the trucks that bring the propane gas tanks.

 

[No-name]

I am unfamiliar with any of the organizations you seem to be refering to. My church has not to my knowlege supported any monarchies in Redlands as of late. And the god you describe bears no resemblence to the one I worship.

Again, I won't pretend to be some sort of pop internet psychologist, but clearly a person does not wake up every morning to endeavor to disprove another's faith due to some inherent benevolence. Happy people don't waste energy in such hobbies. It seems like the pursuit of a sad and bitter person. And if it is not some piteous journey borne out of a deep-seated pain, then it must be out of a dark malevolence. And regardless of what you call it, or how feeble it is, it is an attack nonetheless.

Aren't you saying the Christian God is a false god? It doesn't go for the Muslim god or the Hindu or the anamist gods? or is your painful hatred reserved only for Christians. As for declaring gods false or not, it isn't my job.

As long as I am in the pop psychologist mode: Is your forum handle an effort to compensate for something?