J-L70 - a much needed update

[SUPREEEEEME]

This is the other dude
From moots paper
1480-1490 Ad renaissance :cool-v:
He cluster with south french provence autosomally

That branch, J-FGC32147, wouldn't surprise me if it were early Arab. As mentioned in my first post, it's presence in Sicily could easily be attributable to the Aghlabid Dynasty. Perhaps this Roman is paternally descended from a Nabatean or an Aramean?

 

[kingdavid]

To which branch of j2 the neolithic italian(from moots paper)
Belong ?
Is he that distant branch from j-L70?

 

[SUPREEEEEME]

To which branch of j2 the neolithic italian(from moots paper)
Belong ?
Is he that distant branch from j-L70?

There were only 3 samples from Antonio et al that were J-L70 - 2 from the Middle Ages, and one from Late Antiquity. This admittedly doesn't tell us much.

 

[kingdavid]

There were only 3 samples from Antonio et al that were J-L70 - 2 from the Middle Ages, and one from Late Antiquity. This admittedly doesn't tell us much.

I am speaking about R19 from moots paper
It is a neolithic dude
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17947*/

Since i am not familier with j2 tree structure
I am asking how distant R19 branch
From j-L70 branch in the j2 tree ?


P.s
There was even neolithic LbK austrian j2 remain
So it look to me that some j2 branches were present in europe for a long time

 

[SUPREEEEEME]

I am speaking about R19 from moots paper
It is a neolithic dude
Since i am not familier with j2 tree structure
I am asking how distant R19 branch
From j-L70 branch in the j2 tree ?

Ah okay! This branch is very far from J-L70. The most recent shared marker between the two is J-PF5087 - with a TMRCA of 15 700 ybp.

P.s
There was even neolithic LbK austrian j2 remain
So it look to me that some j2 branches were present in europe for a long time

For sure, there are branches of J2 that have an old presence in Europe - it's just that J-L70 isn't one of them (at least not as old as Neolithic - in any case, J-L70 is too young). As Azzurro suggests, there exists the possibility that J-L70 may have been present amongst Iron Age Greeks (I assume picked up in Anatolia), which would probably be the earliest case of J-L70 in Europe. Either that or via the Phoenicians.

 

[kingdavid]

15,700 ybp thats very old connection
Indeed...
What is your thought about this
https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y24651*/
Sardinia and albania tmrca 900bc maybe
Iron age migration ?

P.s
There also 2 other sardinians in other branches
Under j-L70....
What is the source in your opinion greeks, pheonicians ?

 

[Azzurro]

15,700 ybp thats very old connection
Indeed...
What is your thought about this
https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y24651*/
Sardinia and albania tmrca 900bc maybe
Iron age migration ?

P.s
There also 2 other sardinians in other branches
Under j-L70....
What is the source in your opinion greeks, pheonicians ?

Currently the 2 J2a samples found in Neolithic Italy, are the one you posted and J-Y29673 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y29677/. If you look at https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17947/ the downstream clade has been found in Hittite/Hattian samples, so the one from Ripabianca di Monterado could be a dead end, the other J2a branch is still currently found in Italians and seems to even have a hot spot near le Marche and Abruzzo so not far from its Neolithic ancestor. J-SK1336 can be broadly associated as an Aegean marker, we’ll see if some survival branches exist from R19.

As for L70, it is widely expanded, the Greek source if native would likely be a late Bronze Age Anatolian influx. Ultimately based on its spread it can almost be assumed that it existed in and was native to several cultures from the Levant to the Aegean imho.

 

[kingdavid]

Some j-L70 cases from albanian dna project
Rrenjet ::cool-v:
Tiranë Tiranë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70
Tiranë Tiranë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70
Korçë Korçë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70
Pogradec Korçë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70
Korçë Korçë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148
Tiranë Tiranë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148
Fan Mirditë Lezhë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148>Y24651
Fan Mirditë Lezhë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148>Y24651
Fan Mirditë Lezhë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148>Y24651
Fan Mirditë Lezhë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148>Y24651
Fan Mirditë Lezhë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148>Y24651
Dibër Rajoni jugp. Maqedoni J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148>Y2
PROJEKTI RRËNJËT

 

[SUPREEEEEME]

Some j-L70 cases from albanian dna project
Rrenjet ::cool-v:
Tiranë Tiranë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70
Tiranë Tiranë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70
Korçë Korçë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70
Pogradec Korçë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70
Korçë Korçë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148
Tiranë Tiranë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148
Fan Mirditë Lezhë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148>Y24651
Fan Mirditë Lezhë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148>Y24651
Fan Mirditë Lezhë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148>Y24651
Fan Mirditë Lezhë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148>Y24651
Fan Mirditë Lezhë Shqipëri J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148>Y24651
Dibër Rajoni jugp. Maqedoni J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70>Z2148>Y2
PROJEKTI RRËNJËT

Thanks for this! This is far better data for Albanians than that available from FTDNA - Albanians appear to have 1.1% J-L70. I imagine some of it could be Greek (?) and some is likely via Syrian Auxiliaries - several of those units were in the Balkans from Antioch, Hem, Itura, and Tyre.

 

[Jovialis]

Currently the 2 J2a samples found in Neolithic Italy, are the one you posted and J-Y29673 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y29677/. If you look at https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17947/ the downstream clade has been found in Hittite/Hattian samples, so the one from Ripabianca di Monterado could be a dead end, the other J2a branch is still currently found in Italians and seems to even have a hot spot near le Marche and Abruzzo so not far from its Neolithic ancestor. J-SK1336 can be broadly associated as an Aegean marker, we’ll see if some survival branches exist from R19.

As for L70, it is widely expanded, the Greek source if native would likely be a late Bronze Age Anatolian influx. Ultimately based on its spread it can almost be assumed that it existed in and was native to several cultures from the Levant to the Aegean imho.

I think it ultimately came from the Caucasus region, into Anatolian, not the Levant into Anatolia. If so, it probably came by way of the Bronze Age pulse of Iran_N-like ancestry.

Part of my reasoning:

Only about 5% of LBA Anatolian autosomal DNA is attributed to Levantine Farmers, while over 1/3rd is attributed to Iran/Caucasus.

 

[Azzurro]

I think it ultimately came from the Caucasus region, into Anatolian, not the Levant into Anatolia. If so, it probably came by way of the Bronze Age pulse of Iran_N-like ancestry.

Part of my reasoning:

Only about 5% of LBA Anatolian autosomal DNA is attributed to Levantine Farmers, while over 1/3rd is attributed to Iran/Caucasus.

I personally doubt it, there are several other J2a branches which fit the Caucasus origin, L70 does not. Most diversity of this clade started in LBA and EIA, so it to be very common and diverse one of the Classic civilizations from the Mediterranean or adjacent region.

Don’t understand why you keep on posting the same exact charts, its not relevant to this exact discussion.

The 5% Levantine Farmer dna in Anatolian BA is not the ‘source’ of Levantine in Italians and Greeks, probably accounts for a little bit.

 

[Jovialis]

I personally doubt it, there are several other J2a branches which fit the Caucasus origin, L70 does not. Most diversity of this clade started in LBA and EIA, so it to be very common and diverse one of the Classic civilizations from the Mediterranean or adjacent region.

Don’t understand why you keep on posting the same exact charts, its not relevant to this exact discussion.

The 5% Levantine Farmer dna in Anatolian BA is not the ‘source’ of Levantine in Italians and Greeks, probably accounts for a little bit.

Excuse me, this is pertinent to the opinion that you had stated :


Azzurro: "As for L70, it is widely expanded, the Greek source if native would likely be a late Bronze Age Anatolian influx. Ultimately based on its spread it can almost be assumed that it existed in and was native to several cultures from the Levant to the Aegean imho"


The facts remain the same, so the charts remain the same I guess. You are trying to say it came from Anatolia, so I am point out that it is most likely not the case, and a non-starter.

 

[Jovialis]

Excuse me again, but Southern Italians, and Greeks are not modeled with Levantine from what I see. Could you please clarify which study proposes this, and how much of it exists?:

Sarno et al. 2021

 

[Azzurro]

Excuse me, this is pertinent to the opinion that you had stated :


Azzurro: "As for L70, it is widely expanded, the Greek source if native would likely be a late Bronze Age Anatolian influx. Ultimately based on its spread it can almost be assumed that it existed in and was native to several cultures from the Levant to the Aegean imho"


The facts remain the same, so the charts remain the same I guess. You are trying to say it came from Anatolia, so I am point out that it is most likely not the case, and a non-starter.

How is it a non starter? The Anatolian theory covers its spread moving in both directions? There is an entire scientific paper on this. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5945646/

J-L70 is equivalent to J-L397

“Finally, we explored the distribution of J2a-L397 and three derived lineages within it. J2a-L397 is tightly associated with a typical DYS445 6-repeat allele. This has been hypothesized as a marker of the Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean55, based on its presence in Greek Anatolia and Provence (France), a region with attested Iron Age Greek contribution. All of our chromosomes in this clade were characterized also by DYS391(9), confirming their Anatolian Greek signature.”

This was a good paper overall, provided many NGS samples that made their way to Yfull, Phoenician markers were also discussed in here.

And it gets deeper too, if you look at the Big Block Tree from ftdna, the three most basal clades are from Jordan, Sicily and Turkey.

 

[Jovialis]

How is it a non starter? The Anatolian theory covers its spread moving in both directions? There is an entire scientific paper on this. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5945646/

J-L70 is equivalent to J-L397

“Finally, we explored the distribution of J2a-L397 and three derived lineages within it. J2a-L397 is tightly associated with a typical DYS445 6-repeat allele. This has been hypothesized as a marker of the Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean55, based on its presence in Greek Anatolia and Provence (France), a region with attested Iron Age Greek contribution. All of our chromosomes in this clade were characterized also by DYS391(9), confirming their Anatolian Greek signature.”

This was a good paper overall, provided many NGS samples that made their way to Yfull, Phoenician markers were also discussed in here.

I think it was likely spread to Greece via Anatolia, originating from the Caucasus region. The paternal lineage could have been spread also to the Levant from Anatolia, rather than the other way around. We can see by looking at different time periods that there was an Anatolian/Iran_N intrusion into the levant. Just look at Levant_N vs Levant_BA:

 

[Azzurro]

I think it was likely spread to Greece via Anatolia, originating from the Caucasus region. The paternal lineage could have been spread also to the Levant from Anatolia, rather than the other way around. We can see by looking at different time periods that there was an Anatolian/Iran_N intrusion into the levant. Just look at Levant_N vs Levant_BA:

That’s more or less what I was suggesting that it spread from Anatolia to Greece, so no disagreement there. There is no indication of it coming from the Caucasus it is out of the range for what is typical or suggestive of Caucasian J2a branches, the 6000-4400 ybp range on Yfull. And so far the J2a in the Caucasus has been mostly under J2a-M67, J2a-Z6048 and J2b-L283. The spread of L70 is going to be MBA at the earliest, way pasted all the Neolithic your suggesting. Ugarit and Assyria were on the border of the Hittite Empires, the former even established trading colonies there. Even if we have 3 distinct founder affects in Greece, Turkey and the Levant, it doesn’t really change anything.

J-L70 spread mostly during the Classical era, and I don't know if you read OP's post where he listed its frequency per country.

 

[Azzurro]

Excuse me again, but Southern Italians, and Greeks are not modeled with Levantine from what I see. Could you please clarify which study proposes this, and how much of it exists?:

Sarno et al. 2021

We have different sets of facts what do you want me to tell you.

 

[Jovialis]

You have a different set of facts from Sarno et al. 2021?

 

[Azzurro]

You have a different set of facts from Sarno et al. 2021?

For me Levantine in Italians and Greece is not negotiable, you can post whatever you want, there are other studies which do in fact show you need Natufian to model. The Uniparental evidence is strong plus amateur modelling. G25 is a professional tool, and it shows exactly what I am referring too.

 

[Azzurro]

Anyways this talk is about J-L70, we should stick to Y dna for this to be productive.