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Ancient DNA, admx. history and endogamy in the prehistoricAegean Skourtaniotietal2022

Angela said:
Well, what do you know? J1-P58 made it from Southern Anatolia presumably into Crete by the Bronze Age. I did tell everyone we'd be bound to find it given the location not only of the early farmers, but the documented movement from Anatolia west during the Bronze Age. I always said there wasn't some Game of Thrones like WALL keeping all the J1 men out of Anatolia.
Click to expand...

it for sure made it ;-)
the map where the cave site is
it is in modern day lasithi plateau

41467_2013_Article_BFncomms2871_Fig1_HTML.jpg
 
ihype02 said:
Northern mainland Greece was historically less populated and most of Epirus by the Roman era became empty. So even if the northerns turn out to be different from southern Greeks I doubt it will change much.
Click to expand...

Macedon spawned a global empire and Epirus mounted offensives against Rome itself, which means they had enough manpower and they also were initially both separate Provinces under Rome. Eventually Epirus was rolled into Achaea but Macedonia remained a province. That been said, Greeks from antiquity have always occupied an extended territory (from south Italy to east antolia and from Macedonia to Cyprus) which means they were never totally homogeneous genetically.
 
Kuivamaa said:
Macedon spawned a global empire and Epirus mounted offensives against Rome itself, which means they had enough manpower and they also were initially both separate Provinces under Rome. Eventually Epirus was rolled into Achaea but Macedonia remained a province. That been said, Greeks from antiquity have always occupied an extended territory (from south Italy to east antolia and from Macedonia to Cyprus) which means they were never totally homogeneous genetically.
Click to expand...
Southern Greece was technologically more advanced thus having a higher population and most city-states outside of Greece originated from the South.
Epirus was heavily emptied due to the Roman invasion.
So around 80% of Greek admixture in modern Greeks is bound to be Mycenaean-like, even if Northerns plot north of Thracians IMO.
 
for people interested to see and compare to the ancient y results from crete
here is
the frequency of some y haplogroups
in modern day crete ;-)
( i know the samples here were from east and central crete and not the west crete
so it doesn't cover chania region unfortunately )

41431_2007_Article_BF5201769_Fig1_HTML.gif




41431_2007_Article_BF5201769_Fig2_HTML.gif




source paper from back in the day :

https://www.nature.com/articles/5201769
 
I recall very heated arguments being made of distances higher than 3, far too great, and that the "Eastern" ancestry had to come during Roman times, with these new samples the goal post has been moved once again. I'm intrigued at what the presenter on the youtube video meant when he implied Sardinians and Southern Italians colonized Crete.
 
Kuivamaa said:
The starting point of this topic (the further away from the sea you go the higher the steppe admixture) was Dinatomia’s observation which raised my eyebrow because it is consistent with what happened during the arrival of Slavs in Greece. I am not sure if the feelings of rich farmers are relevant to this but plains and coastal areas have many advantages (access to food, trade, produce, milder climate for the most part) and one disadvantage (more vulnerable to sea raids). The scale is always in favor of the former. If you are a settler and don’t go there, there must be good reasons.
Slavs arrived in clans and avoided conflict with locals or the Roman military. By most accords it was a seemingly peaceful entry of people that were looking not for conquest or plunder but for a new home and picked remote and presumably mostly unclaimed areas.
Click to expand...



The people higher in Steppe who entered Greece during the BA through the Balkan route settled in areas away from the sea, because that environment was familiar to them. They knew how to survive in that kind of habitat. They were Balkan folks who eventually descended from Eastern Europe. They likely had little knowledge of fishing, sailing, cultivating foods such as olives, make wine etc. They probably were nomands who owned lifestock and were looking for land to settle on. But as the centuries passed, they learned and intermixed with the maritime people who probably originally came from Anatolia.

As a comparison, think of the Turkic tribes who conquered parts of the Byzantine Empire and settled in central Anatolia. That's because that kind of enviroment was more similar to the one they were used to in Central Asia.

In comparison to the initial arrival of IE speakers in what is today Greece, the Slavic migration probably happened at a much faster pace. While it is unclear when exactly yamnaya reached the Proto-Greek area (Roughly Haliacmon probably), scholars put the linguistic osmosis between 2200-1900BCE which hints at 2300BCE as the earliest point yamnaya appeared. By 1600BCE we have archaeological proof that a cultural shift has happened throughout the Helladic mainland with Chamber tombs found all the way to the extreme southwest (Thouria in Messenia, full juxtaposition to the northeastern point of entry of yamnaya).It took a further century or two for Crete to follow suit. This new culture coincides with a new language and a new dna signal albeit a weak one further south. That being said it is clear these three conditions are directly linked with one another and is also clear the transition from pre-IE languages to Greek took several centuries.
We do not know how it exactly happened and how it was even possible for a minority to pull that off (the Slavs for example adopted the Greek language instead of spreading their own tongue). But we do know it was a slow process and we have initial data that points toward steppe signal getting weaker down south so this hypothesis isn’t just conjecture.
Click to expand...

Ancient historians mentioned that during the Iron Age different languages were spoken in the island of Crete. This is perhaps the key in understanding why other languages did not survive. There was perhaps no dominant language prior to the arrival of the IE speakers. The Minoans lost power after the volcano eruption in Santorini and the proto-Greek speakers slowly spread throughout a region were more than one language was spoken. So the language which was spoken everywhere, alongside other languages, eventually dominated. Ofcourse, they intermixed linguistically and culturally. We shouldn't discard that 30-40% of the Ancient Greek vocabulary is pre-Greek. The amagalm of that process were to become the Mycenaeans. Further inland and further North however, more of this Balkan element remained.

When the Slavs settled in Greece, the Greek language was lingua franca. It had a very rich litterary tradition and it was the language of the New Testament and the Church. The Slavic minority in Greece was not capable of absorbing the Greek speakers. Further North however there were more Slavs. So the Greeks, or rather East Romans, were more focused in converting the newcomers to Christianity rather than to Hellenise them. So the East Romans took initiatives in creating an appropriate alphabet (Cyrilic) in order to spread the gospels in the Slavic languages.
 
Last edited:
Dianatomia said:
When the Slavs settled in Greece, the Greek language was lingua franca. It had a very rich litterary tradition and it was the language of the modern testament and the Church. The Slavic minority in Greece was not capable of absorbing the Greek speakers. Further North however there were more Slavs. So the Greeks, or rather East Romans, were more focused in converting the newcomers to Christianity rather than to Hellenise them. So the East Romans took initiatives in creating an appropriate alphabet (Cyrilic) in order to spread the gospels in the Slavic languages.
Click to expand...
Latin was also lingua franca of high prestige above the Jiricek line yet the Slavic descent wiped it out from huge parts of its Balkan territory, leaving behind only Romanian and niches of Aromanian, supposedly because this zone took the brunt of Slavic speakers. So you need more than prestige to keep your language. There is also a clear distinction between Slavic speakers inside the imperial borders and nascent slavic states outside of it. The empire absolutely tried to Hellenize/Romanize the settlers. Not in the nationalistic sense of 19th-20th century, it was an effort to actually incorporate those populations up in the mountains in everyday life, up until they became Christians they weren’t participating or mixing. Afterwards they were fully absorbed.
The Cyrillic script is a different story as it originated from the Glagolitic which was an attempt of Constantinople to Christianize the slavic state of Moravia in Central Europe. Eastern Rome was in geopolitical competition with Carolingians back then and the script was a tool, albeit one that didn’t work. However it was welcomed in the Bulgarian state and became the blueprint for Cyrillic. The point is that the whole process that gave rise to Cyrillic, happened outside the territory ERE controlled. Slavs within were being Hellenized.

I agree that pre-IE Greece was probably fragmented politically and linguistically which made the language shift easier, especially if the process was gradual.
 
ihype02 said:
Southern Greece was technologically more advanced thus having a higher population and most city-states outside of Greece originated from the South.
Epirus was heavily emptied due to the Roman invasion.
So around 80% of Greek admixture in modern Greeks is bound to be Mycenaean-like, even if Northerns plot north of Thracians IMO.
Click to expand...

Macedon modified the Greek Phalanx and by late 4th century BC had a more technologically advanced war machine in general, involving ancient artillery. That being said you simply don’t get my point. Modern Greek populations are distinct from on another just like the ancients. You can tell a Cypriot a Griko and Epirotan apart easily. At no point in history did the Greek speakers have a single autosomal profile. Cypriots will have a significant Levantine element and Epirotans will have more steppe than Mycenaeans.
 
Kuivamaa said:
Macedon modified the Greek Phalanx and by late 4th century BC had a more technologically advanced war machine in general, involving ancient artillery. That being said you simply don’t get my point. Modern Greek populations are distinct from on another just like the ancients. You can tell a Cypriot a Griko and Epirotan apart easily. At no point in history did the Greek speakers have a single autosomal profile. Cypriots will have a significant Levantine element and Epirotans will have more steppe than Mycenaeans.
Click to expand...

The making of Greeks is like the making of British,different people came from different places at different times. But one question still remains not very clear, from where the proto - Greeks came from, what was their genetic composition. What was their path through the Balkans.


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Hahaha...I go away for couple of months and all hell breaks loose. This latest paper throws another money wrench to pretty much settled orthodoxy. It seems that the Greeks were not homogenous at all and it really matters where they settled. Mountain people different than the city folk and different than the seafaring people. There were probably 230 different Greek tribes like the ancient authors proposed. Hmmmm...Anatolians mixing with Greeks and Thracians and Cetina people. One big cauldron of a melting pot. I would love to see a lot of samples from Athens of the 5th and 4th centuries BC both from the elite but also from the poets, the sculptors, the painters and other specialized artisans. We know that there was a two way exchange between Athens and Anatolia particularly the Ionian Cities of Western Anatolia which themselves were already melting pots of Carians, Lydians, and Greeks. Can't wait!
 
Thus far, also for those who want to keep track of the nomenclatures:

[TABLE="class: t1"]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]Sample n (Y-DNA)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Site[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Date[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Y-DNA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]J1a-P58
Sample (n=5)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC001[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]2300-1900 BC[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J1a-P58 (xZ643,Y4067,ZS12454,Y205364)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC002[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J1a-P58[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC005[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J1a-P58[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC013[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J1a-P58[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC063[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J1a-P58[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]J1b-ZS50
Sample (n=2)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID LAZ017[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Lazarides, Aegina[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J1b-ZS50[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID NST012[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Nea Styra, Euboea[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J1b-ZS50>ZS5071[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a1-M319
Sample (n=4)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC037[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]2400-1800 BC[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a1-M319[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC015[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]2400-1800 BC[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a1-M319>Y151557[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC018[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]2400-1800 BC[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a1-M319>Y151557[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC031[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]2400-1800 BC[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a1-M319>Y151557[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a1a1-Y6240
Sample (n=3)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC006[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a1a1-Y6240>BY82631[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC009[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a1a1-Y6240>BY82631[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC017[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a1a1-Y6240>BY82631[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a-Z7671
Sample (n=3)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID APO025[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Aposelemis, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a-Z7671[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID XAN041[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Chania, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a-Z7671[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID TIR010[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Tiryns, Argolis[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a-Z7671[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a-Y17002
Sample (n=1)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID XAN031[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Chania, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a-Y17002[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a1a2-Y13128
Sample (n=1)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID XAN029[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Chania, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a1a2-Y13128>Z36829[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a-PF5252
Sample (n=1)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID GLI003[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Glika Nera, Attica[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a-PF5252*[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a2-PF5008
Sample (n=3)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID AID007[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Aidonia, Corinthia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a2-PF5008>Y24510[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID AID008[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Aidonia, Corinthia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a2-PF5008>Y24510[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID XAN024[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Chania, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a2-PF5008>MF10501*[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]G2a2a-PF3147
Sample (n=3)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID LAZ018[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Lazarides, Aegina[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]G2a2a-PF3147>FGC55322[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID XAN051[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Chania, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]G2a2a-PF3147>L91>Y130324[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID MYG004[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]G2a2a-PF3147>L91>Y130324[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]G2a2b2-F872
Sample (n=1)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID NST005[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Nea Styra, Euboea[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]G2a2b2-F872>PF3378[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]C1a2-V20
Sample (n=2)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID XAN035[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Chania, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]C1a2-V20>V3918[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID AID002[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Aidonia, Corinthia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]C1a2-V20>F16270[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]E1b-CTS10912
Sample (n=1)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID XAN016[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Chania, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]E1b-CTS10912>BY6578[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]R1b-PF7562
Sample (n=1)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID XAN030[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Chania, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]R1b-PF7562[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]T1a3b2-Y11151
Sample (n=2)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC010[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]T1a3b2-Y11151>BY59831[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC055[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]T1a3b2-Y11151>BY59831[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283
Sample (n=4)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID MYG001[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>Z615*[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID MYG008[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>Z615*[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID MYG006[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>Z615*[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID MYG005[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>Z615*[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
mount123 said:
Thus far, also for those who want to keep track of the nomenclatures:

[TABLE="class: t1"]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]Sample n (Y-DNA)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Site[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Date[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Y-DNA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]J1a-P58
Sample (n=5)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC001[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]2300-1900 BC[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J1a-P58 (xZ643,Y4067,ZS12454,Y205364)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC002[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J1a-P58[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC005[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J1a-P58[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC013[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J1a-P58[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC063[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J1a-P58[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]J1b-ZS50
Sample (n=2)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID LAZ017[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Lazarides, Aegina[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J1b-ZS50[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID NST012[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Nea Styra, Euboea[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J1b-ZS50>ZS5071[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a1-M319
Sample (n=4)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC037[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]2400-1800 BC[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a1-M319[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC015[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]2400-1800 BC[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a1-M319>Y151557[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC018[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]2400-1800 BC[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a1-M319>Y151557[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC031[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]2400-1800 BC[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a1-M319>Y151557[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a1a1-Y6240
Sample (n=3)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC006[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a1a1-Y6240>BY82631[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC009[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a1a1-Y6240>BY82631[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC017[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a1a1-Y6240>BY82631[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a-Z7671
Sample (n=3)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID APO025[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Aposelemis, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a-Z7671[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID XAN041[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Chania, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a-Z7671[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID TIR010[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Tiryns, Argolis[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a-Z7671[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a-Y17002
Sample (n=1)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID XAN031[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Chania, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a-Y17002[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a1a2-Y13128
Sample (n=1)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID XAN029[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Chania, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a1a2-Y13128>Z36829[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a-PF5252
Sample (n=1)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID GLI003[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Glika Nera, Attica[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a-PF5252*[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a2-PF5008
Sample (n=3)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID AID007[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Aidonia, Corinthia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a2-PF5008>Y24510[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID AID008[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Aidonia, Corinthia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a2-PF5008>Y24510[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID XAN024[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Chania, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2a2-PF5008>MF10501*[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]G2a2a-PF3147
Sample (n=3)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID LAZ018[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Lazarides, Aegina[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]G2a2a-PF3147>FGC55322[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID XAN051[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Chania, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]G2a2a-PF3147>L91>Y130324[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID MYG004[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]G2a2a-PF3147>L91>Y130324[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]G2a2b2-F872
Sample (n=1)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID NST005[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Nea Styra, Euboea[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]G2a2b2-F872>PF3378[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]C1a2-V20
Sample (n=2)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID XAN035[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Chania, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]C1a2-V20>V3918[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID AID002[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Aidonia, Corinthia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]C1a2-V20>F16270[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]E1b-CTS10912
Sample (n=1)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID XAN016[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Chania, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]E1b-CTS10912>BY6578[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]R1b-PF7562
Sample (n=1)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID XAN030[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Chania, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]R1b-PF7562[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]T1a3b2-Y11151
Sample (n=2)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC010[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]T1a3b2-Y11151>BY59831[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID HGC055[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]T1a3b2-Y11151>BY59831[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283
Sample (n=4)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID MYG001[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>Z615*[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID MYG008[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>Z615*[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID MYG006[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>Z615*[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID MYG005[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>Z615*[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...


great work ;-)
also this dude
GLI002- Glika Nera Attica - ( according to the ytree site he is E-S9621 an upstream branch to e-m84)
https://www.theytree.com/usersample/1e27887ee0abb47a9d5bcdaa9f987013.html

P.s
I don't know why pribislav don't analaysed it yet in anthrogenica
i know its not the best coverage but still it is in the same coverage as XAN016 e-L618 dude :wondering:
anyway i am counting on theytree site
they proved to be good and i have all the calls of this individual they sent it to me so its real deal here
would be interesting to see his date probably iron age
 
bigsnake49 said:
Hahaha...I go away for couple of months and all hell breaks loose. This latest paper throws another money wrench to pretty much settled orthodoxy. It seems that the Greeks were not homogenous at all and it really matters where they settled. Mountain people different than the city folk and different than the seafaring people. There were probably 230 different Greek tribes like the ancient authors proposed. Hmmmm...Anatolians mixing with Greeks and Thracians and Cetina people. One big cauldron of a melting pot. I would love to see a lot of samples from Athens of the 5th and 4th centuries BC both from the elite but also from the poets, the sculptors, the painters and other specialized artisans. We know that there was a two way exchange between Athens and Anatolia particularly the Ionian Cities of Western Anatolia which themselves were already melting pots of Carians, Lydians, and Greeks. Can't wait!
Click to expand...
Paper hasn't been published yet but somehow you have already made your conclusions about it.
-Different tribes doesn't mean that they're genetically distant.(Btw they're 4 main tribes)
-"We know that there was a two way exchange between Athens and Anatolia particularly the Ionian Cities of Western Anatolia which themselves were already melting pots of Carians, Lydians, and Greeks. Can't wait"
Anatolians were genetically homogeneous
 
Omino said:
You shouldn't mix your wishful thinking with actual data.Paper hasn't been published yet but somehow you have already made your conclusions about it.
-Different tribes doesn't mean that they're genetically distant.(Btw they're 4 main tribes)
-"We know that there was a two way exchange between Athens and Anatolia particularly the Ionian Cities of Western Anatolia which themselves were already melting pots of Carians, Lydians, and Greeks. Can't wait"
Anatolians were genetically homogenous
Typical Balkan nationalist delusions
Click to expand...

Anatolians were about as homogeneous as the Greeks. Anatolia besides the areas near the shore is very mountainous leading to genetic isolation and drift. Just like the mountainous Greek mainland. I am sure the people near the Black Sea are the same genetically as the Hittites the Lucian's, the Lydians and the Carians and the ancestors of the Kurds. Maybe the ancestors of the EEF migrating west and settling in the fertile valleys and flatlands near the sea might have been genetically similar, I am sure that the mountain folk might not have been.

While I was born in Western Thrace and my people came from Eastern Thrace and I appreciate Thracian music and customs, I am Greek through and through so whatever... I am not in the mood to cuss you out.
 
bigsnake49 said:
Anatolians were about as homogeneous as the Greeks. Anatolia besides the areas near the shore is very mountainous leading to genetic isolation and drift. Just like the mountainous Greek mainland. I am sure the people near the Black Sea are the same genetically as the Hittites the Lucian's, the Lydians and the Carians and the ancestors of the Kurds. Maybe the ancestors of the EEF migrating west and settling in the fertile valleys and flatlands near the sea might have been genetically similar, I am sure that the mountain folk might not have been.
While I was born in Western Thrace and my people came from Eastern Thrace and I appreciate Thracian music and customs, I am Greek through and through so whatever... I am not in the mood to cuss you out.
Click to expand...
"Maybe the ancestors of the EEF migrating west and settling in the fertile valleys and flatlands near the sea might have been genetically similar, I am sure that the mountain folk might not have been."
We already know about Anatolia's homogeneity from previous papers.
My dear we're talking about actual scentific data from a paper,i don't care about your personal beliefs.
 
The Anatolian admixture in Cretans seem to be very high if anything I expect Old Greeks to be naturally more shifted towards Anatolia than the current samples imply before the additional Anatolian admixture came by.
 
Kuivamaa said:
Macedon modified the Greek Phalanx and by late 4th century BC had a more technologically advanced war machine in general, involving ancient artillery. That being said you simply don’t get my point. Modern Greek populations are distinct from on another just like the ancients. You can tell a Cypriot a Griko and Epirotan apart easily. At no point in history did the Greek speakers have a single autosomal profile. Cypriots will have a significant Levantine element and Epirotans will have more steppe than Mycenaeans.
Click to expand...

I don't think ancients were that different. Unless they absorbed some native ancestry from and in the colonies they had. I believe Epirotans will be like BGR_IA which is pretty close with Mycenaeans. But if I am wrong I am wrong. I am not putting my money on that. Even though my opinion is no longer as strong as it used to be.

The more northern samples in here are either family of Mercenaries or low quality samples.
 
Omino said:
"Maybe the ancestors of the EEF migrating west and settling in the fertile valleys and flatlands near the sea might have been genetically similar, I am sure that the mountain folk might not have been."
We already know about Anatolia's homogeneity from previous papers.
My dear we're talking about actual scentific data from a paper,i don't care about your personal beliefs.
Click to expand...

Point me to the papers if you don't mind.
 
ihype02 said:
The Anatolian admixture in Cretans seem to be very high if anything I expect Old Greeks to be naturally more shifted towards Anatolia than the current samples imply before the additional Anatolian admixture came by.
Click to expand...
There was a substrate of people already in Greece before the Greeks migrated. If you want to call them Pelasgians or autochthonous or whatever name but the land was not empty of people. We do not have archaeological evidence of massive population replacement, at least not yet. According to Strabo quoting Ephorus here was a settlement of Thracians in Boetia that they kicked out and forced towards Parnassos. He also mention that Pelasgians were displaced towards Athens with a section in Athens called Pelasgiko. Did those displaced Thracians and Pelasgians stay isolated or did they admix with the Greeks around them? While we have no definitive evidence one ay or the other, logic dictates that they were assimilated and learned to speak Greek.

As always we need more samples and more archaeological digs. You cannot trip on a rock in Greece without it being part of an archaeological site. Thanks to all the American and European universities working on all the sites enriching our knowledge about the ancient world.
 
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