Ancient DNA, admx. history and endogamy in the prehistoricAegean Skourtaniotietal2022

Thanks to user Trojet for analyzing the Mygdalia bam files we now know that they are Z615(xZ597). These are new aDNA additions to already present and older Z615(xZ597) sample ID MOK15 2100-1800 BCE from EBA Mokrin Necropolis Vojvodina, Northern Serbia.

[TABLE="class: cms_table_t1"]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_td1"]ID MYG001

[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_td1"]MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_td1"]1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_td1"]J2b-L283>Z615(xZ597)

[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_td1"]https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_td1"]ID MYG008

[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_td1"]MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_td1"]1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_td1"]J2b-L283>Z615(xZ597)

[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_td1"]https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_td1"]ID MYG006

[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_td1"]MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_td1"]1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_td1"]J2b-L283>Z615(xZ597)

[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_td1"]https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_td1"]ID MYG005

[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_td1"]MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_td1"]1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_td1"]J2b-L283>Z615(xZ597)

[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_td1"]https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Any information of MYG002, MYG003, MYG004?

Also where did he obtain it? I'd like to label the samples Salento produced.
 
7ZpC1ur.png


Another PCA with more detailed labels for modern Greeks and Italians
 
HGC055 might be y T1a3b, though I can only work with the data that I have, maybe they have better data than mine, or maybe not :)


i just checked.....they state they are both the same marker

HGC010 and HGC055 belong to the same clade T1a3b2-Y11151>Y8614>Y12871>Y14629>BY59831, formed in FTDNA Block Tree by one Italian and one French sample.

I don't know what they refer to in the last sentence
 
i just checked.....they state they are both the same marker
HGC010 and HGC055 belong to the same clade T1a3b2-Y11151>Y8614>Y12871>Y14629>BY59831, formed in FTDNA Block Tree by one Italian and one French sample.
I don't know what they refer to in the last sentence


snp reminds me of the old etruscan sample of a few years ago
 
i just checked.....they state they are both the same marker
HGC010 and HGC055 belong to the same clade T1a3b2-Y11151>Y8614>Y12871>Y14629>BY59831, formed in FTDNA Block Tree by one Italian and one French sample.
I don't know what they refer to in the last sentence


yfull only have it up to T-Y14629

https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y14629/
 
i just checked.....they state they are both the same marker

HGC010 and HGC055 belong to the same clade T1a3b2-Y11151>Y8614>Y12871>Y14629>BY59831, formed in FTDNA Block Tree by one Italian and one French sample.

I don't know what they refer to in the last sentence

… totally different line from ours, maybe there’s an Italo-Franco T1a3 group that we are not aware of, but these two are neither Italian nor French.

7FUewcv.jpg


zRqo4zO.jpg
 
Any information of MYG002, MYG003, MYG004?

Also where did he obtain it? I'd like to label the samples Salento produced.
The paper isn't out yet but the raw data has been officially uploaded to ENA Browser yesterday, I have posted the link in the tabel before: https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216. He has analyzed the .bam files that have been uploaded.

The Mygdalia samples MYG001, MYG008, MYG006, MYG002, MYG003, MYG005 (minus MYG004) represent a family that share the same paternal grandfather. It is very likely that they are descendants of Cetina-Dinaric settlers in Achaia as archeological Cetina artefacts have been found in close vicinity. This is also in line with archeological papers on Cetina migrations into the Peloponnese.

Next to their paternal phylogeny they also have an elevated ancient East Adriatic auDNA component which makes them more "Central Med"-like, if one likes to compare them to modern pops.

From the presentation (square represents a male, circle a female):
unknown.png

unknown.png
 
… totally different line from ours, maybe there’s an Italo-Franco T1a3 group that we are not aware of, but these two are neither Italian nor French.
7FUewcv.jpg

zRqo4zO.jpg
middle sentence was not from me .............thats why i posed the query in the last sentence ...............there is an italian from potenza in yfull with this marker though.

the marker presents mostly ancient kazaks ..............and now persian gulf people, both saudi and iranians ( persians ) .................persians did originate around southern kazaks and moved to iran circa 1000bc
 
The paper isn't out yet but the raw data has been officially uploaded to ENA Browser yesterday, I have posted the link in the tabel before: https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216. He has analyzed the .bam files that have been uploaded.

The Mygdalia samples MYG001, MYG008, MYG006, MYG002, MYG003, MYG005 (minus MYG004) represent a family that share the same paternal grandfather. It is very likely that they are descendants of Cetina-Dinaric settlers in Achaia as archeological Cetina artefacts have been found in close vicinity. This is also in line with archeological papers on Cetina migrations into the Peloponnese.

Next to their paternal phylogeny they also have an elevated ancient East Adriatic auDNA component which makes them more "Central Med"-like, if one likes to compare them to modern pops.

From the presentation (square represents a male, circle a female):
unknown.png

unknown.png

Okay cool,

I recall the Max Planck Institute did the same thing with the Etruscan samples. Which was release the BAMs before the study, or pre-print.
 
It is noticeable that which are high in Steppe, be it in the Peloponnese, Central Greece or Thessaly are from a location not too close to the Sea. So during the BA it is the coastal region which had less steppe admixture, not just the islands. Logkas-like samples could have been found as far South as the central Peloponnese. While Crete_armenoi is clearly an example of the two varieties of people intermixing in Crete.

On that note, the Dorian invasion is described by historians as the 'return' if the Heraclids. Perhaps tribes from the North of Greece inhabited the Peloponnese before. Then they were expelled, or pulled back to the mountains, after which during the LBA they came back (along with other Dorian invaders from the North of Greece) and reclaimed their lands. Ending the Mycenaen civilization as we know it.
 
It is noticeable that which are high in Steppe, be it in the Peloponnese, Central Greece or Thessaly are from a location not too close to the Sea. So during the BA it is the coastal region which had less steppe admixture, not just the islands. Logkas-like samples could have been found as far South as the central Peloponnese. While Crete_armenoi is clearly an example of the two varieties of people intermixing in Crete.
On that note, the Dorian invasion is described by historians as the 'return' if the Heraclids. Perhaps tribes from the North of Greece inhabited the Peloponnese before. Then they were expelled, or pulled back to the mountains, after which during the LBA they came back (along with other Dorian invaders from the North of Greece) and reclaimed their lands. Ending the Mycenaen civilization as we know it.
EBA Helladic was minoan-like, which is Greece_N-like. I.E. similar to people prior to Steppe admixture. So how could they "reclaim" the land, if the more Greece_N-like people were there thousands of years prior? Also log04 is 50% steppe yet not even " north "of Northern Italians, thus within and of itself a hybrid of steppe and Greece_N/minoan.Minoan.

The peopling of Greece was facilitated by Greece_N/Minoan mixing with straight up Yamnaya-like people.
 
I'm a bit confused about the autosomal signature of these people, and the claim that they are more "Central European" like. From the results of our Italian members, the more Southern Italian members have the closest distances.

Plus,
 
Plus, look at these:
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]XAN053_61.09%cov[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]14.66917176[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]15.10772650[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]15.12619913[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]15.27585022[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]15.40943867[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]15.79257104[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]16.22543374[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Icaria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]16.33720294[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]16.59758416[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]17.28421245[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]17.86401131[/TD]
[TD]Moldovan_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]17.97663484[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]18.36098211[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]18.43578314[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Rhodes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]18.49334205[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]18.73847913[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Kos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]19.00822454[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Fournoi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]19.31420462[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]19.53214530[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Izmir[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]19.74682506[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]19.80247207[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]19.82787684[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Umbria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]20.44889973[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Lemnos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]20.52544275[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Romagna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]20.62219678[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Foca
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]HGC055-065_48.19%cov[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]11.02179205[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]12.05937395[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]13.15706654[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]13.98865254[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Icaria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]14.11943696[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]15.39860059[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]15.62668231[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Rhodes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]15.67226531[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]16.20612539[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]16.23312970[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Kos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]16.62679163[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]16.98957327[/TD]
[TD]Moldovan_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]17.30373081[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Cypriot[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]17.48361233[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Fournoi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]17.77976659[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]18.01842668[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]18.17789867[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]18.46868701[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Izmir[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]18.52757944[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Cyprus[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]19.62074922[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]20.36660993[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Lemnos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]20.81074002[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Foca[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]20.90523867[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]21.46139557[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Cappadocia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]21.89359952[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Athens
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]APO044_15.56%cov[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]21.34890395[/TD]
[TD]Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]21.94275507[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]22.12142627[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]23.09106321[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]23.14068927[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]23.20275846[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]23.36750522[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]23.76311848[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]23.89682406[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Icaria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]24.67740464[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]24.72705603[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]25.06180161[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]25.33179512[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]25.87250471[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]26.01550307[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Rhodes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]26.28576801[/TD]
[TD]Moldovan_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]26.50369597[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Kos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]26.65378772[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Umbria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]26.92067793[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Romagna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]26.94237926[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]27.12444101[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Fournoi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]27.44255090[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]27.60571680[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Izmir[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]27.63130471[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]27.85470158[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]AID002_74.78%cov[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]7.53334587[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Icaria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]7.55581895[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]7.74685743[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]8.17245373[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]8.64706309[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]9.09114404[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]9.18017429[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]9.37428397[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]9.65755145[/TD]
[TD]Moldovan_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]9.89943433[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Fournoi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]10.23464215[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Izmir[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]10.24983414[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Rhodes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]10.29438682[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Kos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]10.38537433[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]10.54419271[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]10.66394392[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]11.21557399[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]11.91551090[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Foca[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]11.95373163[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Lemnos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]12.58106514[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]12.96199830[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Athens[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]13.69052227[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Central[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]13.95916273[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]14.16476968[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Cyprus[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]14.81434778[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]KRO009_52.77%cov[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]6.25955621[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]6.54577726[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Umbria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]6.75549406[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Romagna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]6.98584283[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]7.50082662[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]7.97682894[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]9.35032620[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Emilia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]9.85776344[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]10.03781351[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]10.33834610[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]10.82504503[/TD]
[TD]Albanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]11.34969163[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]11.53932840[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Athens[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]11.68014983[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Central[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]12.10379279[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]12.17452668[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thrace[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]12.24598710[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]12.26681703[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]12.32048295[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]12.58990071[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]12.62158865[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]12.74845481[/TD]
[TD]Albanian_Kosovo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]13.13945965[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaloniki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]13.19720425[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]13.26028280[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]KUK002_44.46%cov[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]13.23608326[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]14.48491629[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Icaria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]15.21100588[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]15.51436753[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]15.77803853[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]16.50850690[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Rhodes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]16.73546235[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]17.21961962[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Kos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]17.30458032[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]17.84411948[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]17.85118764[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]18.37867514[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Cypriot[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]18.55424749[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Fournoi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]18.59415500[/TD]
[TD]Moldovan_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]19.13360395[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]19.13722028[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Izmir[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]19.20293467[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]19.27067980[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]19.76099188[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Cyprus[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]20.76584696[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]21.41706329[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Lemnos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]21.43533765[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Cappadocia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]21.49077709[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Foca[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]22.08131074[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]22.62703030[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Athens
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]MYG002_38.92%cov[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]6.19891926[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Umbria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]6.45736014[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Romagna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]6.49431474[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]7.38719162[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]7.69224285[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]7.72240895[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]8.90560498[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Emilia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]9.32622110[/TD]
[TD]Albanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]9.41868887[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]10.44811466[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]10.88943066[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Athens[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]10.98152539[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thrace[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]10.98885799[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]11.00938690[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]11.02239085[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Central[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]11.15137211[/TD]
[TD]Albanian_Kosovo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]11.34293613[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]11.72576650[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaloniki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]11.75787396[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]12.02302375[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]12.17553695[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]12.35788008[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]12.45529606[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]12.67707379[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_South[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]13.08071863[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_Vardar
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]NST004_11.60%cov[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]10.46908783[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]12.00549874[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Cypriot[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]12.71014949[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]12.97169997[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]13.31042824[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Icaria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]13.45297365[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Rhodes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]14.27177634[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Kos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]14.78501606[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Cyprus[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]14.85305356[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]16.31314807[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]16.84858154[/TD]
[TD]Nusayri_Turkey[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]16.92851441[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]17.05073019[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Cappadocia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]17.15345155[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]17.18796672[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Fournoi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]17.52227440[/TD]
[TD]Lebanese_Christian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]17.60185502[/TD]
[TD]Moldovan_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]17.84576140[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]17.99451861[/TD]
[TD]Palestinian_Christian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]18.17902638[/TD]
[TD]Jordanian_Christian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]18.22024972[/TD]
[TD]Syrian_Christian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]18.33255847[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]18.56653710[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Izmir[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]19.12012552[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]20.06499689[/TD]
[TD]Lebanese_Muslim
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


I just chose at random provided the coverage was decent.
 
EBA Helladic was minoan-like, which is Greece_N-like. I.E. similar to people prior to Steppe admixture. So how could they "reclaim" the land, if the more Greece_N-like people were there thousands of years prior? Also log04 is 50% steppe yet not even " north "of Northern Italians, thus within and of itself a hybrid of steppe and Greece_N/minoan.Minoan.
The peopling of Greece was facilitated by Greece_N/Minoan mixing with straight up Yamnaya-like people.
Whenever we mention BA Greeks we talk of a population that is already a mix of Minoan-like and yamnaya tribes. Perhaps Dinatomia wonders if this tale about Heraclids is a legend of some early greeks getting pushed back north from some other early greeks that went south a couple of centuries earlier.
That being said I don’t find this event likely at all. Given the data (Mycenaeans low on steppe, Logkas high on steppe, Dorians/Epirotans/Macedonians all speaking dialects closely related to each other ) I see a possible pattern.
When yamnaya arrived in the Helladic region they met a more densely populated area full of Minoan-like individuals. These two fully intermixed up north (around Haliacmon), and from that point some of their descendants (the first Greeks) still probably semi nomadic pastoralists etc started to move south, further mixing with the other Minoan-like people. This transition explains why Mycenaeans eventually had only low amount of steppe and why the minority element of the mix (yamnaya) actually became the dominant linguistic factor (gradual assimilation as they went on).The more advanced Aegean culture refined Mycenaeans too.
Mycenaean Greek dialect eventually morphed into Ionic/Attic as we moved towards Iron Age.
While all these things transpired, rest of the Greeks from Haliacmon area, those that didn’t go south, didn’t get further mixed with more Minoan-like Helladic tribes, stayed isolated which means their dialect started to diverge from what was spoken further south. Some of them started to move south around the time of the Bronze Age collapse, and those brought the Doric dialects south.
Finally some were still left behind, eventually forming the kingdoms of Macedon and Epirus. Inscriptions we have from those areas around the 5th and 4th century BCE show significant affinity to Dorian dialects, with the famous usage of “A” instead of “Η” (ΑΠΕΙΡΩΤΑΝ vs ΗΠΕΙΡΩΤΩΝ or ΛΕΩΝΙΔΑΣ instead of ΛΕΩΝΙΔΗΣ). Those people were seen as cruder and backwater from the rest of Greeks.
If we ever get some Iron Age samples from those first Dorians there may be some higher steppe individuals in there. Epirotans and Macedonians I would 100% expect them to score significantly more steppe than Mycenean samples.
As for Dinatomia’s observation about higher steppe occurring away from the sea, I think it is consistent with what we know from medieval times and the Slavic migrations who were at their strongest inland and on the mountains. My paternal side is from Messinia and my father’s brother took a wife that originated from the most mountainous and isolated area in Arcadia (Gortynia). An extremely blond/grey eyed woman. My male first cousin was a Macauley Culkin doppelgänger when home alone came out and his sister wasn’t much darker. They are still very blond in their 40s.
 
As comparison ... same samples posted by Angela ( #74) in EU K13:

Code:
AID002_EU_K13,16.18,5.84,28.80,13.06,31.40,1.74,0,1.29,0,0.46,0.89,0,0.34
APO044_EU_K13,13.23,0,41.23,0,38.09,6.25,0,0,0,0,0.90,0,0.30
HGC055-065_EU_K13,10.01,0,35.29,11.69,36.73,4.67,0,0,0.95,0.15,0.53,0,0
XAN053_EU_K13,16.98,0,34.78,5.49,32.72,7.46,0,1.46,0,0,0.99,0,0.12
NST004_EU_K13,7.55,0.54,26.28,14.18,38.38,10.06,1.95,0,1.06,0,0,0,0
MYG002_EU_K13,27.84,8.46,24.66,9.64,23.01,2.97,0,0,1.34,0.75,0.82,0.36,0.15
KUK002_EU_K13,13.99,0,30.18,8.71,41.68,3.61,0,0.45,0,0.49,0.88,0,0
KRO009_EU_K13,26.78,6.92,26.01,8.83,25.27,2.24,0,0,0,1.13,0.90,1.61,0.30

wWbyysY.png
 
If you prefer Eurog. K13 to Dodecad K12, think again :)
 
Whenever we mention BA Greeks we talk of a population that is already a mix of Minoan-like and yamnaya tribes. Perhaps Dinatomia wonders if this tale about Heraclids is a legend of some early greeks getting pushed back north from some other early greeks that went south a couple of centuries earlier.
That being said I don’t find this event likely at all. Given the data (Mycenaeans low on steppe, Logkas high on steppe, Dorians/Epirotans/Macedonians all speaking dialects closely related to each other ) I see a possible pattern.
When yamnaya arrived in the Helladic region they met a more densely populated area full of Minoan-like individuals. These two fully intermixed up north (around Haliacmon), and from that point some of their descendants (the first Greeks) still probably semi nomadic pastoralists etc started to move south, further mixing with the other Minoan-like people. This transition explains why Mycenaeans eventually had only low amount of steppe and why the minority element of the mix (yamnaya) actually became the dominant linguistic factor (gradual assimilation as they went on).The more advanced Aegean culture refined Mycenaeans too.
Mycenaean Greek dialect eventually morphed into Ionic/Attic as we moved towards Iron Age.
While all these things transpired, rest of the Greeks from Haliacmon area, those that didn’t go south, didn’t get further mixed with more Minoan-like Helladic tribes, stayed isolated which means their dialect started to diverge from what was spoken further south. Some of them started to move south around the time of the Bronze Age collapse, and those brought the Doric dialects south.
Finally some were still left behind, eventually forming the kingdoms of Macedon and Epirus. Inscriptions we have from those areas around the 5th and 4th century BCE show significant affinity to Dorian dialects, with the famous usage of “A” instead of “Η” (ΑΠΕΙΡΩΤΑΝ vs ΗΠΕΙΡΩΤΩΝ or ΛΕΩΝΙΔΑΣ instead of ΛΕΩΝΙΔΗΣ). Those people were seen as cruder and backwater from the rest of Greeks.
If we ever get some Iron Age samples from those first Dorians there may be some higher steppe individuals in there. Epirotans and Macedonians I would 100% expect them to score significantly more steppe than Mycenean samples.
As for Dinatomia’s observation about higher steppe occurring away from the sea, I think it is consistent with what we know from medieval times and the Slavic migrations who were at their strongest inland and on the mountains. My paternal side is from Messinia and my father’s brother took a wife that originated from the most mountainous and isolated area in Arcadia (Gortynia). An extremely blond/grey eyed woman. My male first cousin was a Macauley Culkin doppelgänger when home alone came out and his sister wasn’t much darker. They are still very blond in their 40s.

The higher steppe admixture of the North could also be explained if the south had larger population whenever the mixture happened
 
The higher steppe admixture of the North could also be explained if the south had larger population whenever the mixture happened

This is also a farmer vs. pastoralist moment. Pastoralists and agro-pastoralits with an animal husbandry focus just replace locals, but if pastoralists meet farmers, they can use them to acquire the surplus production. So if a conqueror encountered a well-organised and productive farmer society, he is more likely to just subdue them or ally up, than with fellow pastoralists/mobile agro-pastoralists which occupy the same niche and are of no use, unless they need more numbers in a desperate war effort.
 
This is also a farmer vs. pastoralist moment. Pastoralists and agro-pastoralits with an animal husbandry focus just replace locals, but if pastoralists meet farmers, they can use them to acquire the surplus production. So if a conqueror encountered a well-organised and productive farmer society, he is more likely to just subdue them or ally up, than with fellow pastoralists/mobile agro-pastoralists which occupy the same niche and are of no use, unless they need more numbers in a desperate war effort.

If I recall from the German/Greek study from Biomuse, the Ancient Greeks (similar to LBA Mycenaeans i.e. high Minoan/Greece_N 85-90% and minority steppe 10-15%) have a very high protein diet, something like 90%.

9DYO3Rc.png
 
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