Ancient DNA, admx. history and endogamy in the prehistoricAegean Skourtaniotietal2022

this was posted by user from anthrogenica peloponnesian
just the name of the sites from where samples were taken :good_job:

should be interesting;-)

The samples are from the following sites

AID: Aidonia, Corinthia
MYG: Mygdalia, Achaia
TIR: Tiryns, Argolis
GLI: Glika Nera, Attica
NST: Nea Styra, Euboea
LAZ: Lazarides, Aegina
KUK: Koukounaries, Paros
APO: Aposelemis, Crete
KRO: Krousonas, Crete
XAN: Chania, Crete
HGC: Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete

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kingjohn said:
this was posted by user from anthrogenica peloponnesian
just the name of the sites from where samples were taken :good_job:

should be interesting;-)

The samples are from the following sites

AID: Aidonia, Corinthia
MYG: Mygdalia, Achaia
TIR: Tiryns, Argolis
GLI: Glika Nera, Attica
NST: Nea Styra, Euboea
LAZ: Lazarides, Aegina
KUK: Koukounaries, Paros
APO: Aposelemis, Crete
KRO: Krousonas, Crete
XAN: Chania, Crete
HGC: Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing. Interesting to point out is that the J2b-L283 Mygdalia samples (and their daughters) even after intermixing have retained a lot of their original East Adriatic Cetina autosomal profile if one chooses to model them with Cetina/Dinaric and Minoan/Mycenaean samples.
 
From Anthrogenica:
Pribislav said:
NST012 has much lower coverage, but he is also Y6313+, Y6304+, Y19093+ and ZS50+.


By the way, XAN016 is without a doubt E-L618>CTS10912>BY6578, with six derived SNPs, and no ancestral.
Click to expand...

Very interesting if these reads are all correct. A lot of Near Eastern E, kind of unexpected, plus one such basal individual. Looks like the ancestors of E-V13 got through, but didn't stay, like expected with the Impresso-Cardial into Lengyel expansion up the rivers (Danube, Tisza, Rhine with Lengyel, Michelsberg) of E1b1b.
 
Riverman said:
From Anthrogenica:


Very interesting if these reads are all correct. A lot of Near Eastern E kind of unexpected, plus one such basal individual. Looks like the ancestors of E-V13 got through, but didn't stay, like expected with the Impresso-Cardial into Lengyel expansion up the rivers (Danube, Tisza, Rhine with Lengyel, Michelsberg) of E1b1b.
Click to expand...


Thanks ,
I want to see pribislav take on those
GLI002 and KUK002
To be sure they are real
It happen before i don't count on snipsa tool analysis by teepean
But hey the E-L618 finding is cool
At least there is some E in this future paper

How does pribislav looked at the E-L618 dude
If the bam file are not out yet?
 
The (R-PF7562) sample looks Dorian, based on it's age, (Xan samples seem to be from BA collapse, visual estimate from youtube screenshot color codes) and its G25 sim clusters with the Dardani, MKD BA, and Logkas, and the misdated Alb mdv I13834 (which I strongly believe is really 1400 BC based on it's Cetina heavy ancestry, something even IA Cinamak and MKD lack).

If R-PF7562 shows up with more Dorians than the EBA sample from north Albania, which is also likely R-PF7562, might represent the parent group of the Dorian populations.
 
kingjohn said:
Thanks ,
I want to see pribislav take on those
GLI002 and KUK002
To be sure they are real
It happen before i don't count on snipsa tool analysis by teepean
But hey the E-L618 finding is cool
At least there is some E in this future paper
How does pribislav looked at the E-L618 dude
If the bam file are not out yet?
Click to expand...

You should ask him yourself, he seems to be a nice guy and he is the expert on these matters, I'm really not. If dealing with yDNA raw data formats of that kind, I have to rely on their expertise as well.
 
Riverman said:
You should ask him yourself, he seems to be a nice guy and he is the expert on these matters, I'm really not. If dealing with yDNA raw data formats of that kind, I have to rely on their expertise as well.
Click to expand...
I would have but i am not a member in anthrogenica
My hope is that he maybe read our posts here
As soon as this paper will be published
And bam files would be out i would ask theytree
Chinese site to look at those 2
If they are E at all
 
Apparently some individuals as "Maleschreiber" have not read the supplementary data on Mycenaeans in the Souther Arc paper. There was a significant amount of Mycenaean R1b-PF7563 with an average Mycenaean autosomal profile hence a correlation with a pre-LBA migration with Balkan Yamnyan groups, as we already have it attested in a Balkan Yamnayan sample (Çinamak) L23- sample that is highly likely PF7563, is the only solid correlation there is for this lineage. One should rather focus on its Yamnaya and Central Southern Balkan aDNA presence.

A similar Balkan Yamnaya pathway is the case for the I-L701 sample from Theopetra a haplogroup that too was found in both Yamnaya and Balkan Yamnaya.

Linking high PF7563 presence in ancient Greece with Cetina/Dinaric where in an abundance of samples it simply is non existent and totally irrelevant is just false.
 
mount123 said:
Yes, J2b-L283. The three samples from Mygdalia, Arcadia, Greece carry a lineage typical of the EBA-IA East Adriatic Western Balkans (EBA Cetina culture and its derivatives onwards namely its late phase Dinaric culture and IA Glasinac-Mati or to put them in other words: the Illyrian sphere) which is the main vector for the spread of this haplogroup. The samples date to 1600-1450 BCE which coincides with the steppe auDNA addition to prehistoric aDNA from Greece. Some upcoming Eastern European studies will enlighten its pre LCA/EBA entry into the Balkans further ;)
Click to expand...


do these J-L283 belong to the older Cetina area samples in the northern adriatic area ?
 
mount123 said:
Apparently some individuals as "Maleschreiber" have not read the supplementary data on Mycenaeans in the Souther Arc paper. There was a significant amount of Mycenaean R1b-PF7563 with an average Mycenaean autosomal profile hence a correlation with a pre-LBA migration with Balkan Yamnyan groups, as we already have it attested in a Balkan Yamnayan sample (Çinamak) L23- sample that is highly likely PF7563, is the only solid correlation there is for this lineage. One should rather focus on its Yamnaya and Central Southern Balkan aDNA presence.

A similar Balkan Yamnaya pathway is the case for the I-L701 sample from Theopetra a haplogroup that too was found in both Yamnaya and Balkan Yamnaya.

Linking high PF7563 presence in ancient Greece with Cetina/Dinaric where in an abundance of samples it simply is non existent and totally irrelevant is just false.
Click to expand...

It makes zero appearances in 26 Dalmatian BA samples(92.3% J2b-L283), but since one single Cinamak has it, it is now Illyrian, monopoly rights established, that's how it works.

His PCA plot is misleading, why not plot Logkas and MKD BA in there, and the other Chania outlier(Xan 051) and one can see which has a closer relation.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
It makes zero appearances in 26 Dalmatian BA samples(92.3% J2b-L283), but since one single Cinamak has it, it is now Illyrian, monopoly rights established, that's how it works.

His PCA plot is misleading, why not plot Logkas and MKD BA in there, and the other Chania outlier(Xan 051) and one can see which has a closer relation.
Click to expand...
Actually 36 of the 87 aDNA J2b-L283 samples are linked to Bronze Age Cetina/Dinaric. Point is that EBA Cinamak L23- likely R1b-PF7563 is a Balkan Yamnayan sample with identical autosomal DNA to other Balkan Yamnayan core settlements as in e.g. Bulgaria. It has no affiliation with Cetina whatsoever, archaeogenetically speaking. We then see it in South Central Balkan post-Brnjica groups likewise one Iron Age sample from Eastern Albania. Thus far we continuously see it in high percentages in the ancient Greek world. The pathway in Greece clearly is linked to Balkan Yamnayan groups and obviously not to EBA Cetina where it is not even present.

The Theopetra and Logkas samples are great examples of what these groups stemming from Balkan Yamnaya looked like in their initial transitional period with further expansion and intermixing ultimately resulting in a fully formed Mycenaean auDNA profile. We have both the autosomal and parental (R1b-PF7563 Pylos, Chania, Himera, I-L701 Theopetra (also found in Yamnaya)) attestation.
 
mount123 said:
Actually 36 of the 87 aDNA J2b-L283 samples are linked to Bronze Age Cetina/Dinaric. Point is that EBA Cinamak L23- likely R1b-PF7563 is a Balkan Yamnayan sample with identical autosomal DNA to other Balkan Yamnayan core settlements as in e.g. Bulgaria. It has no affiliation with Cetina whatsoever, archaeogenetically speaking. We then see it in South Central Balkan post-Brnjica groups likewise one Iron Age sample from Eastern Albania. Thus far we continuously see it in high percentages in the ancient Greek world. The pathway in Greece clearly is linked to Balkan Yamnayan groups and obviously not to EBA Cetina where it is not even present.

The Theopetra and Logkas samples are great examples of what these groups stemming from Balkan Yamnaya looked like in their initial transitional period with further expansion and intermixing ultimately resulting in a fully formed Mycenaean auDNA profile. We have both the autosomal and parental (R1b-PF7563 Pylos, Chania, Himera, I-L701 Theopetra (also found in Yamnaya)) attestation.
Click to expand...

I agree, R1b-PF7563 is it's own group. Some Greek group seem to have had it, and probably other related blocks(Armenian-Phrygian). It eventually lost ground and migrated entirely south into Greece and Anatolia. In time more samples will give a better picture of it's original distribution.

The preview data from this paper is just that, preview. We don't know the real dates of the samples, but we have "average" dates of the sites, where there are multiple samples. What is clear is Xan30 is more northern shifted, and Crete stayed Minoan until BA collapse. Plus the values are sims, the real G25 values will shift, than we can see to which Balkan IA groups they show most affinity.

 
PaleoRevenge said:
I agree, R1b-PF7563 is it's own group. Some Greek group seem to have had it, and probably other related blocks(Armenian-Phrygian). It eventually lost ground and migrated entirely south into Greece and Anatolia. In time more samples will give a better picture of it's original distribution.

The preview data from this paper is just that, preview. We don't know the real dates of the samples, but we have "average" dates of the sites, where there are multiple samples. What is clear is Xan30 is more northern shifted, and Crete stayed Minoan until BA collapse. Plus the values are sims, the real G25 values will shift, than we can see to which Balkan IA groups they show most affinity.
Click to expand...


didn't Crete get conquered my the myceneans, before the Myceneans got conquered by the Dorians ?
 
this what teepean user from anthrogenica posted :good_job:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Umrj-Eug6dooeWkct0w6R90UoX6j_1cY?usp=share_link
and based on that pribislav did some anlaysis
i am posting some of his anlaysis :

LAZ017 is definitely J1-Y19093>ZS50>ZS5071* (xBY119669,M10096)

NST012 has much lower coverage, but he is also Y6313+, Y6304+, Y19093+ and ZS50+.


By the way, XAN016 is without a doubt E-L618>CTS10912>BY6578, with six derived SNPs, and no ancestral.


Here is one J2a batch:


XAN024; Chania, Crete, Greece; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-MF10501/

XAN029; Chania, Crete, Greece; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z36829/

XAN031; Chania, Crete, Greece; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17002/

XAN041; Chania, Crete, Greece; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-V2639/

TIR010; Tiryns, Argolis, Greece; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-V2639/

This is the first appearance of clade V2639 in aDNA record. It suffered a huge bottleneck (~9300 years), and is found today almost exclusively among Nakh peoples (Chechens and Ingush).
 
kingjohn said:
this what teepean user from anthrogenica posted :good_job:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Umrj-Eug6dooeWkct0w6R90UoX6j_1cY?usp=share_link
and based on that pribislav did some anlaysis
i am posting some of his anlaysis :

LAZ017 is definitely J1-Y19093>ZS50>ZS5071* (xBY119669,M10096)

NST012 has much lower coverage, but he is also Y6313+, Y6304+, Y19093+ and ZS50+.


By the way, XAN016 is without a doubt E-L618>CTS10912>BY6578, with six derived SNPs, and no ancestral.


Here is one J2a batch:


XAN024; Chania, Crete, Greece; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-MF10501/

XAN029; Chania, Crete, Greece; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z36829/

XAN031; Chania, Crete, Greece; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17002/

XAN041; Chania, Crete, Greece; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-V2639/

TIR010; Tiryns, Argolis, Greece; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-V2639/

This is the first appearance of clade V2639 in aDNA record. It suffered a huge bottleneck (~9300 years), and is found today almost exclusively among Nakh peoples (Chechens and Ingush).
Click to expand...

To my understanding XAN samples are from Crete. From which timeline is the E-L618 from?
 
kingjohn said:
this what teepean user from anthrogenica posted :good_job:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Umrj-Eug6dooeWkct0w6R90UoX6j_1cY?usp=share_link
and based on that pribislav did some anlaysis
i am posting some of his anlaysis :
LAZ017 is definitely J1-Y19093>ZS50>ZS5071* (xBY119669,M10096)
NST012 has much lower coverage, but he is also Y6313+, Y6304+, Y19093+ and ZS50+.
By the way, XAN016 is without a doubt E-L618>CTS10912>BY6578, with six derived SNPs, and no ancestral.
Here is one J2a batch:
XAN024; Chania, Crete, Greece; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-MF10501/
XAN029; Chania, Crete, Greece; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z36829/
XAN031; Chania, Crete, Greece; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17002/
XAN041; Chania, Crete, Greece; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-V2639/
TIR010; Tiryns, Argolis, Greece; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-V2639/
This is the first appearance of clade V2639 in aDNA record. It suffered a huge bottleneck (~9300 years), and is found today almost exclusively among Nakh peoples (Chechens and Ingush).
Click to expand...
Excellent the samples are avaliable, it must really be Christmas!
 
Hawk said:
To my understanding XAN samples are from Crete. From which timeline is the E-L618 from?
Click to expand...

There are not any dates given. There is a color code which suggests the Chania samples average around 1,300 BC. But there are anywhere from 10-20 samples from that site alone. The range gives a good chance some ought to be from BA collapse period.

Xan016 E-L618 plots very south, more than the Mycenean samples.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
There are not any dates given. There is a color code which suggests the Chania samples average around 1,300 BC. But there are anywhere from 10-20 samples from that site alone. The range gives a good chance some ought to be from BA collapse period.

Xan016 E-L618 plots very south, more than the Mycenean samples.
Click to expand...

He might be from Neolithic times. Is he downstream negative for E-V13 or low coverage sample?
 
Hawk said:
He might be from Neolithic times. Is he downstream negative for E-V13 or low coverage sample?
Click to expand...

He is low coverage, but it is a derived E-L618 according to the experts on Anthrogenica. So the low coverage doesn't mean its E-V13, but upstream of it. If correct this suggests it is a side branch which survived further South, probably from the initial phase of the E-L618 spread in the Mediterranean, which led to the expansion within Impresso-Cardial and later Lengyel, Michelsberg, possibly also in Tripolye-Cucuteni. I guess it is either what remained from the earliest journey into Europe, or came back South from whereever the centre of E1b1b was in the Carpatho-Danubian sphere.
 
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