• Don't want to see ads? Install an adblocker like uBlock Origin or use a Europe-based privacy-friendly browser like Vivaldi or Mullvad.

To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

Status
Not open for further replies.
Paleo-Revenge's posts are becoming so ludicrous that he posted a "map" which shows Daunian settlements to claim that a "different language" was spoken by Messapians. The map shows Messapic inscriptions in Daunian sites because the language is called Messapic and the people who spoke it are the Iapygians which formed several tribes.

They are the same exact people and they're not considered to belong to different people. Nobody claims so, not even Matzinger who considers the Messapic-speakers to be the fusion between Proto-Messapians of the Proto-Messapic-Albanian grouping + Cetina culture in Dalmatia from where they emigrated to Italy.

The ridiculous idea that Messapians are a different people from Daunians was revitalized by one banned person here on eupedia because he didn't like the idea that Daunians are J-L283 and R-Z2103.

The rest of his post belongs to the fantasy world of the Yugoslav nationalist Paleo-Revenge. It's a case study that he can't understand a single thing about what is going around him, but I guess that's one of the reasons why he's confined to writing ramblings on eupedia.

"Glasinac is the last culture to intrude into Dardani space, and it was firmly stopped, it made no headway beyond western Kosovo."

Keep dreaming and seek help for your anti-Albanianism.

Look at the concentration of Messapi inscriptions there is a clear pattern. Chaones, Dardani and Iapodes are not the same people in the Balkans. So they can't be the same in Apulia even if there was some admixture between each other in the "new world" by late Iron Age. Nor can that diaspora event be turned around and be presented as proof for the Balkans peoples, because in the Balkans these groups did not mix. Iapodians in Croatia are not PF5762-3, probably will not be Z2103 either. Chaones will not be J2b-L283, but PF5763.
 
I don't know about this, but i am quite confident there is some sock puppet accounts roaming around. Just look at Straboo over there, an Irish person heavily involved in Balkan archaeology? Glasinac, Cetina, Bubanj-Hum, Psenicevo, Babadag. What are the odds one random Irishman would give a damn shit about Balkan Bronze Age and would constitute 99% of his writing?

Excine seems to be far more butthurt and creates imaginary scenarios that people didn't want J2b2-L283 to be part of Cetina Early Bronze Age, but meantime Excine doesn't want E-V13 to be part of any major Bronze Age Culture. They play this game several years hence why he is so butthurt E-V13 to be associated with Thracians. He wants for E-V13 to remain anonymous, insignificant "gypsies" which rose to number during Roman age.

Yes, Straboo is a sock. That's the only reason why someone would care enough for the Bronze Age Balkans. Or he just cares about the subject. It's not an "inferior" subject to any other one.

How is that I don't want it to be related to any Bronze Age culture just because I disagree with Riverman's Gava stuff? Most people have rejected it on anthrogenica since you stopped being active there. All Bronze Age groups of the central Balkans which weren't concentrated along the Danube are good candidates. How does anyone even draw the conclusion that I want E-V13 to remain "anonymous, insignificant gypsies which rose to number during Roman age"?

You don't understand that the people who have the worst agenda in this debate are the people who support Riverman's ideas.

PS We have one northern Illyrian E-V13, wait and see how Paleo-Revenge will react when we find southern Illyrian E-V13
 
Hawk probably meant geography wise.

And they are not Illyrians. Even the only E-V13 among "Illyrians" shows affinities with Slovenian IA and Hungarian IA, which are all in tune with Riverman's proposal. Which begs the question, is the HRV IA E-V13 guy even a Illyrian or some La Tene/ east Alp Celt?

EzqAGKT.png







The paper links Bela Crkva with a western variant of Vatin. The trail goes cold with this group as it fuses with Illyrians. And this group has nothing to do with Dardani, the author do not even suggest it but how do you explain that to a donkey that can't even look up the Bela Crkva sites on a map.

And I am certain this why you are tripping up and getting carried away. The author makes a point that the eastern border of this culture is reminiscent of the Glasinac vs Zlot Grop and Glasinac vs Brnjica demarcation line in the Iron Age. While in a way that is correct, how the border ended up in the IA relates to different events and turn overs of cultures. The author is not in any way making a link between Bela Crkva and Dardani, that's some low IQ interpretation, the suggestion is not even hinted.





The same or not, Vatin is not Illyrian. Nor is Vucedol the golden key that just makes absurd incoherent theories work, because Vucedol. For starters, Vatin cremated. Illyrians did not.



What conspiracies you inbred from Martinovici? You and Brumi are one and the same.




Hey dummy, I exposed your phony G25s. Why don't you and your alter ego dare to post them again on AG? Delusional inbred, exposing you as a fraud and a crook, in what world do you get the impression that makes me look bad?
Every time you collide with me, I wipe my as$ with your face.


Take your pills and keep creating crazy theories. Maybe next week I'm someone else. You live in such a delusional place that you can't even grasp basic concepts.

How did I say that Vatin is Illyrian? I said that Vatin probably is related to Vucedol and as such may have the same lineages aka R-Z2103. If you can't reply to what I claimed, then don't reply at all.

If you can't understand the article and the connections between Belotic-Bela Crkva and all cultures west of the Morava around the Naissus area after it, then it's your problem. The bottom line is that R-Z2103, J-L283, R-PF7563 will all be found before Glasinac-Mati in Dardania and Glasinac-Mati will just move there other subclades.

Wilkes about Belotic Bela Crkva:
In the western Balkans there are few remains to connect with these bronze-using 'proto-lllyrians', except in western Serbia and eastern Bosnia. Moreover, with the notable exception of Pod near Bugojno in the upper valley of the Vrbas, nothing is known of their settlements. Some hill settlements have been identified in western Serbia but the main evidence comes from cemeteries, consisting usually of a small number of burial mounds (tumuli). In eastern Bosnia at the cemeteries of Belotic and Bela Crkva the rites of inhumation and cremation are found, with skeletons in stone cists and cremations in urns.

The E-V13 in IA Croatia is a northern Illyrian, like it or not. Post more of your ridiculous "models" as if you're showing anything useful. Nobody is taking you seriously not even the people who upvote you on eupedia.

Distance to: HRV_IA:I5724
0.02495436 HRV_EIA
0.02498865 HRV_IA
0.02584341 SRB_BA
0.02596427 CZE_LBA_Knoviz_o3
0.02848025 SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean

Some people expected that we won't find any E-V13 in Croatia, but unfortunately for them and you things didn't work out as you hoped

Look at the concentration of Messapi inscriptions there is a clear pattern. Chaones, Dardani and Iapodes are not the same people in the Balkans. So they can't be the same in Apulia even if there was some admixture between each other in the "new world" by late Iron Age. Nor can that diaspora event be turned around and be presented as proof for the Balkans peoples, because in the Balkans these groups did not mix. Iapodians in Croatia are not PF5762-3, probably will not be Z2103 either. Chaones will not be J2b-L283, but PF5763.


You don't even understand what you're looking at. These are the only inscriptions which exist from Iapygians and the sites on this map are site from all three groups meaning that they didn't speak different languages.

You're posting your own made up theories now. The Iapygians don't come from "Chaones, Dardani, Iapodes". This doesn't exist even as a suggestion in literature or even as a theory. You're mixing totally unrelated tribes from different eras. It's so ludicrous that it's not even worth having a discussion with you
 
PS We have one northern Illyrian E-V13, wait and see how Paleo-Revenge will react when we find southern Illyrian E-V13

You have zero E-V13 Illyrians, the fellow is from Slavonia and shares eastern Celt components.

What southern Illyrian E-V13? If any are found, they will be an extreme minority and remnants of the channel ware intrusion. But if they were even found, I have good feeling we would have heard about it. Almost 100 samples from a 3rd batched have been processed, not a single peep has been heard.

Take your pills and keep creating crazy theories. Maybe next week I'm someone else. You live in such a delusional place that you can't even grasp basic concepts.

I don't have socket accounts, or spend my days editing wikipedia, save the pills for yourself.

How did I say that Vatin is Illyrian? I said that Vatin probably is related to Vucedol and as such may have the same lineages aka R-Z2103. If you can't reply to what I claimed, then don't reply at all.

This is a first, Vucedol is your answer to everything, the holly water that makes everything Illyrian. Backing out of your prior claims?

If you can't understand the article and the connections between Belotic-Bela Crkva and all cultures west of the Morava around the Naissus area after it, then it's your problem. The bottom line is that R-Z2103, J-L283, R-PF7563 will all be found before Glasinac-Mati in Dardania and Glasinac-Mati will just move there other subclades.

Moron, the article is clearly referring to west Morava, a tributary river from western Serbia, not the actual Morava river valley. I'm not from your neck of the woods, and I understand geography better than you. If you insist, I will post every single site related to Belotic-Bela Crkva, which are all in western Serbia, bordering Bosnia.

Wilkes about Belotic Bela Crkva:
In the western Balkans there are few remains to connect with these bronze-using 'proto-lllyrians', except in western Serbia and eastern Bosnia. Moreover, with the notable exception of Pod near Bugojno in the upper valley of the Vrbas(western Bosnia!!!!!!!), nothing is known of their settlements. Some hill settlements have been identified in western Serbia but the main evidence comes from cemeteries, consisting usually of a small number of burial mounds (tumuli). In eastern Bosnia at the cemeteries of Belotic and Bela Crkva the rites of inhumation and cremation are found, with skeletons in stone cists and cremations in urns.

This is all Bosnia and the western edges of Serbia. What do you think you are proving here? That you are illiterate? Do you know how to google locations?


The E-V13 in IA Croatia is a northern Illyrian, like it or not. Post more of your ridiculous "models" as if you're showing anything useful. Nobody is taking you seriously not even the people who upvote you on eupedia.

He is eastern Celt. Nice try.

YVd418j.png



Some people expected that we won't find any E-V13 in Croatia, but unfortunately for them and you things didn't work out as you hoped

Unfortunately for us, the only E-V13, was found on the Celtic ethnic border, north of Sava river, near Zagreb, even more unfortunately it picks up SVN and Hun La Tene profile, not Illyrian. Totally owned.:laughing:



You don't even understand what you're looking at. These are the only inscriptions which exist from Iapygians and the sites on this map are site from all three groups meaning that they didn't speak different languages.

You're posting your own made up theories now. The Iapygians don't come from "Chaones, Dardani, Iapodes". This doesn't exist even as a suggestion in literature or even as a theory. You're mixing totally unrelated tribes from different eras. It's so ludicrous that it's not even worth having a discussion with you


The inscriptions are heavily concentrated in a region that used to be called Calabria. This means Messapii are related to Dardanii(Galabri), which cannot have any connection with Iapygians/Iapydes (north Illyrians), who stem from an entirely different cultural sphere.
PF5763 will show up with Chaones, Moliossians, maybe even with Macedonians but not with Dalmatians(we already have plenty of samples to rule it out), this will make your sloppy and absurd connections become incoherent and unfeasible. Even R-Z2103 makes only one rare appearance with Cetina and never shows up again in Dalmatia. Your theories rest on wishful thinking and just plain appropriation of foreign peoples into "muh Illyrians". At this rate you'd be forced to claim the entire Balkans as Illyrian.
 
Yes, Straboo is a sock. That's the only reason why someone would care enough for the Bronze Age Balkans. Or he just cares about the subject. It's not an "inferior" subject to any other one.

How is that I don't want it to be related to any Bronze Age culture just because I disagree with Riverman's Gava stuff? Most people have rejected it on anthrogenica since you stopped being active there. All Bronze Age groups of the central Balkans which weren't concentrated along the Danube are good candidates. How does anyone even draw the conclusion that I want E-V13 to remain "anonymous, insignificant gypsies which rose to number during Roman age"?

You don't understand that the people who have the worst agenda in this debate are the people who support Riverman's ideas.

PS We have one northern Illyrian E-V13, wait and see how Paleo-Revenge will react when we find southern Illyrian E-V13

You and your group are what we call "pidh mashkull".
 
And those from the coast-islands are likely from the Veneti-Histrian-Liburnian group which did largely cremate and had more Urnfield/Channelled Ware contacts than Illyrians proper.

By the way, Bruzmi made a great post on the Encrusted Pottery derived ?uto Brdo-G?rla Mare group finds:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...mp-Europe-quot&p=902439&viewfull=1#post902439

Note that this is the major second component contributing to the formation of Stamped Pottery, and just like early Channelled Ware will, they had a strictly Pannonian (Western Pannonian, Danubian block) genetic profile. Their cultural heritage lived on, probably even their patrilineage as a small minority (recent Romanian tester), but their autosomal profile shifted in the Aegean-Anatolian influenced South East. Same will be shown for earliest Babadag I and Channelled/Knobbed Ware finds, if they come up. Probably less deviating actually, because they already mixed on the road before.
 
Hawk, Belotic-Bela Crkva is also called Vatin variant. There seems some dispute, as some see it as Vatin derived, some as partially Vatin and some as not Vatin at all. I doubt a people unrelated to Vatin would adopt their ware traditions for no reason. What is interesting is, there are inhumation among this group, I think inhumation is the majority practice. If what I am proposing is correct, than it can be proved or disproved via DNA samples, R-Z2103 should show up among this group, and their aDNA profile should share a portion of ancestry with Cimmerian MJ12 like component.
I see this group as ultimately dissolving among north-eastern Illyrians, they were already partially assimilated in LBA, and the IA eastern Pannonian Illyrians most likely carried a R-Z2103 substrate, this would only hold if Vatin does indeed = R-Z2103.

And just for fun, the link Exince posted even has a map of this culture, Belotic-Bela Crkva sites are west of Cacak. The other sites(east of Cacak) are Paracin culture. Why would one post a study without fully reading it, is beyond me. His interpretations are very low IQ. West Morava = Nis = Belotic-Bela Crkva and Dardani as one.

Gb0C10i.png
 
R-Z2103 was also found in Encrusted Pottery, Maros etc. I think we can be pretty sure that R-Z2103 was living in the Bronze Age not far from the Danube. Formations like Vatin and Brnjica are highly likely for R-Z2103, whether it was dominant or not. It seems to have been later between J-L283 Illyrians, E-V13 Thracians and J2a dominated Aegeans/Greeks. Kind of squeezed in between, because of the MBA-EIA expansions of those people.
 
R-Z2103 was both in Maros and Mokrin, both northern edges of Serbia bordering Romania. And the single IE sample in Vucedol being R-Z2103, it's not hard to imagine a possible enclave for this people nearby, with the culture that fits the habitat criteria being Vatin.

I found the English translation of this Serbian article. Very informative.
http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0350-0241/2021/0350-02412171061B.pdf

Gava/Belegis II really wrecked havoc, they pretty much chocked Brnjica out. I have not found an answer to what extend Brnjica survived or recovered. But what I do find interesting is that, Belegis II reached the north Aegean in good strength, yet from MKD samples E-V13 only shows up in the far east of that region.

If E-V13 did not survive in large numbers in the Vardar and northern Greece which were the main lucrative targets for their invasions and raids. What survival chance does the much smaller group that went through Albanian have? Not a very good one.
If E-V13 shows up in Albania during IA, it will have a very faint presence and at the far edges of Illyrian world. Personally, I don't think it has been found, there would have been a leak. 100 ancient samples and no noise.


PS Riverman how do you understand this quote?

Relatively numerous sites in which ceramics of
Brnjica type were found in the Vardar basin as well as
in the north of Greece up to Thessaly, point to popu-
lation movements from the central Balkans towards
the Mycenaean territory at the time when the Brnjica
community flourished, reached its peak and, like others,
developed ferrous metallurgy, but neglected the pro-
tection of the northern regions of its territory. Under
such conditions, the cultural group from the Iron Age I b
phase in the Morava basin found ways to leave the
Velika Morava valley and reach the Juzna Morava basin

up to the Grdelica Gorge, undoubtedly causing move-
ments further to the south in response. The powerful
advance of cultural groups from the north (from the
Serbian Danube valley and the Velika Morava basin) is
proved not only by the cannelured ceramics of the Iron
Age I type, but also by bronze artefacts (decoration need-
les, axes-kelts, razors, bracelets) from the Hisar site in
Leskovac. From that moment on, the archaeological

material of the Juzna Morava basin north of Grdelica

Gorge is characterized by a mixture of the material

culture of the Iron Age I community in the Morava
basin with traditional forms of the Brnjica population
in proportionally 10: 1 during the Brnjica I b phase, up
to 5:1 during the Brnjica II a phase, and 1: 4 in the last
phase of this cultural group.48

https://www.researchgate.net/public...characteristics_of_the_Brnjica_cultural_group

What is interesting is that Brnjica was already expanding into Macedonia before BA collapse occurred. The invasion from Belegis II shattered them and caused more Brnjica to migrate south. What I find confusing is the closing paragraph. The way it is quoted, the ratio of Belegis II(Iron Age I) vs Brnjica material starts at 10 to 1, 5 to 1, than it reverses to 1 to 4. It looks like there was a Brnjica recovery, but I am not certain this what the author meant to say and might have meant the opposite, with Belegis II eventually chocking out Brnjica. Any thoughts?
 
It is known that Brnjica and Greek groups first retreated, kind of "run to the hills" when G?va came, but they survived. Later they had intensified contacts and in some areas of Brnjica and Greece in general the locals gained the upper hand. The Channelled Ware groups being either assimilated, moved out or being annihilated. It is from this time onwards we have a clear demarcation of G?va derived/Basarabi groups being Thracian and the others not.
The run to the hills has to be taken literally, as the Brnjica and other local groups built hilltop fortifications and moved to areas easily defensible at that time, a very different settlement pattern to the situation before. I would compare it with the situation fo Slavs coming and what Vlachs and Albanians did, or others. Moved to strongpoints, fortification, changed the habitat for areas less favoured by the newcomers.
It is pretty much the same with the G?va-related groups in the Morava-Vardar zone and downwards.
 
FYI, I discovered this yesterday. Belotic-Bela Crkva is used very loosely.

The true Belotic-Bela Crkva existed in EBA western Serbia. In MBA Belotic-Bela Crkva refers to the Vatin variant, which some of the archeologist prefer not to acknowledge, thus they use the term of the preceding culture(Belotic-Bela Crkva) for the new phase as well. It gets confusing when reading papers from other regions that mention Belotic-Bela Crkva material being found in some of the sites, you have to take the time period into account, to figure out if this is the old Belotic-Bela Crkva, or the Vatin variant.
 
I failed to see any citation from authors that state Vatin derives from Belotic-Bela Crkva. In fact their burial rite differ from each other, the most fundamental material culture, pottery, etc, etc.
 
@Johane Derite

So since not just one but others, also fellow J2b-L283 members, have brought to my attention the pseudo scientific "Sumerian" misinformation post you have made on twitter @AlbHistory, I will just have to say, with all respect for the valuable posts you make, which I upvote quite often, I find it extremely ethically inappropriate. I am not just talking about putting such non sense out there but also intentionally leaving it still there.

I honestly thought you would have deleted it but seeing it in the top three of images put out by the world's most favorite search engine Google, it is extremely misleading and straight up misinformation propagandist garbage. I can only imagine the confusion people who have tested with the aforementioned haplogroup must feel when they see that or even worse believe it.

Not to mention people who share such stuff. The audacity is insane and I am sure you would know better (maybe not).
 
Vatin does not derive from Belotic-Bela Crkva, and the authors never made this proposal. The old school believed that Vatin branched out into western Serbia and formed the "Vatin variant", they used this term because this new culture seemed like a blend of two cultures, their main reason was the burial rites are not Vatin, even when cremated, they are still buried in a tumuli, they correctly saw it as a partially Vatin culture. The current hipsters prefer to treat this as no Vatin people involved, thus not a Vatin culture, have dropped the term Vatin variant, and continue to use the the label for the previous culture Belotic-Bela Crkva for the period that corresponds to Vatin variant.

I agree with the older school, Vatin variant is a hybrid culture which implies a fusion of two groups people/cultures.
 
I found this Hungarian piece today:
https://mek.oszk.hu/15200/15244/pdf/15244.pdf

It has samples from many major groups we are talking about. I want to highlight page 21 in particular. Compare e.g. Monteoru and Wietenberg pieces, it is very clear that Wietenberg is closer to the Channelled Ware, especially the one found in Babadag and Psenichevo than Monteoru.

The author says something very interesting the Noua group, something which I have repeatedly said in this thread (everything quoted is Google translate):
The people of the Noua culture in the north to the middle course of the Szamos, in the west to the Ore Mountains
expands. Along the Szamos, some of their groups reach the Eastern Great Plain, where they mingle
with the already mixed local population (Berkesz?Demecser group).
We hardly know the settlements of this cattle- and sheep-herding people, in Moldavia their light wooden structures
stood, these must have been in Transylvania as well. In the cemeteries (Brass?-Christian Village,
Herm?ny, T?vis, etc.) their dead are resting on their sides with their legs up, or just
their ashes are buried. A large part of their simple rib-decorated pots and two-handled mugs are a
It originates from the assimilated groups of the Monteoru culture. Their three-edged bone arrowheads,
the three-holed bone side part of their horse's bridle, the bronze pins with cammed necks, hooked handles
sickles lead far to the east, the Sabatinovka culture lived between the Dniester and the Dnieper
to his people. These proto-Europids (Alpine and Mediterranean anthropomorphs also appear in Transylvania)
they probably spoke an Iranian language, thus the Carpathian basins of the people of the Noua culture
its settlement marks the appearance of the first Iranians here
.

That is why we find R-Z93 in Thracians, because they picked up what remained from the Sabatinovka (Srubna) newcomers in the Noua-Coslogeni mix. He goes on, note that Felsőszőcs = Suciu de Sus! So we have the connection of Wietenberg with Noua and of both with Suciu de Sus and Berkesz-Demecser.

It is peculiar that the typical metal objects of the new inhabitants of Transylvania are not in large quantities
they are found in the area inhabited by them, but outside it, within the boundaries of the Felsőszőcs culture. THE
the weapons and tools of conquerors - it seems - the population of the Late Bronze Age, the Wietenberg culture
made by the descendants of his people. The relationship between the two peoples is sometimes a special symbiosis
resulted: in the kurgans of Ol?hl?pos, the Felsőszőcs and Noua memories of the peoples of cultures.
Sometime at the beginning of the 1st millennium, the inhabitants of Transylvania and the Szamos-Tisza region hid it
are forced to use their accumulated treasures (Felőr, Domahida, ?p?lyi). However, their property
rather, only the people of the Felsőszőcs culture dug deep into the earth, as on Felőr and Domahida.
The great majority of the people of the Noua culture fled to the east, just to avoid becoming slaves

That's when G?va came to the scene, the united force of the West Romanian cremation block, because G?va is merely a homogenised horizon of these people with Suciu de Sus (secondarily Igrita etc.) in its centre, what's especially noticeable is the richness and quality of both pottery and bronzes, weapons in particular:

The new conquerors, the communities of the people of the G?va culture, take over K?k?llő one by one
Ment? (Medgyes), the Olt valley (R?ty), the Mezős?g and the Szamos region (Ol?hl?pos).
There are also fortified ones among their settlements, their dwellings are stilt or harrow houses, or oval
rectangular huts sunk into the ground, in the center of which stood a taped stove. Mainly
they keep cattle and have a significant herd of horses. Despite the large number of bronze sickles
farming was of minor importance, most of the meat was obtained by hunting.
After their settlement, bronze art in the area of the Ore Mountains flourished again.
Almost all tools, tools, weapons and jewelry are made of bronze: axes, sickles, swords,
spears, belts, needles, and cauldrons are found almost innumerably in the storage finds dug into the ground,
such as Isp?nlaka, Felsőmaros?v?r, Nagysink and Marosfelfalu (Cincu?Suseni-"horizon").

The people of the G?va culture, who cremated their dead and buried them in urns, and related groups all
they occupy a larger area at the end of the Late Bronze Age. Their settlements and cemeteries
Apart from Transylvania, it can be found in B?ns?g and Tisz?nt?l, east of the Carpathians in Galicia and
in Bessarabia (Holyhrad and Chisinau culture). Some groups even go to the Dnieper region
they reach the forested steppe. Also south of the Carpathians, in Havasaf?ld and Northern Bulgaria
a population living in this age which, judging from the remains of its material culture, the G?va-
could speak a language similar to that of the people of that culture (Babadag and P?eničevo culture).
This is the area
it is roughly the same as the later known residences of the Dacians, Getas, and Hungarians.
Not between the end of the Late Bronze Age and the appearance of the mentioned peoples in ancient sources
we can count on popular movements of such importance that the majority of the population
would lead to its replacement in this large area. Therefore, it is likely that the Gava-
culture and related memorial groups are the legacy of the ancestors of the Dacians, Getas, and Hungarians.
Their origin is clear: the local communities of the Middle Bronze Age population and the conqueror
the end result of the slow fusion process of mass graves is a common or similar language
the formation of speaking peoples by the end of the Late Bronze Age.

https://mek.oszk.hu/15200/15244/pdf/15244.pdf

I found this piece just today and even if you might argue it is no new professional work (like those inventing new terms for Channelled Ware and ignoring outstanding characteristics like large protuding knobs), it is very interesting that other people came, completely independently, to basically the same conclusions, as did most classical authors, by the way, before the splitters and "pots not people" fraction got the upper hand. Quite refreshing. I don't care what else he wrote, and don't even know, but these remarks and the many illustrations are just spot on.
 
I still think the story of E-V13 should be sought here: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10963-021-09155-7

10963_2021_9155_Fig9b_HTML.png


The corridor and the horizont, the so called Balkan-Carpathian is to be sought. I don't see it how North Carpathians or even South Balkans makes sense, it's in the between vertically which needs to be sought. I think E-V13 from there expanded both North and South, they were a people keeping on their own hence why some of them show high EEF, something between Hungary EEF - Vinca and Bulgarian Chalcolithic and Yamnaya.

South-East Bulgaria was likely prone to CHG migrations, even much more than Greece considering the land route was easier than the sea.
 
I don't think so, and it gets less likely every day, because e.g. Encrusted Pottery definitely marched along the Danube South:

Distribution-of-bread-like-idols-from-the-Zuto-Brdo-Garla-Mare-area-and-of-their.png


https://www.researchgate.net/figure...o-Garla-Mare-area-and-of-their_fig1_303587774

The other samples from around those areas, though mostly earlier or somewhat more North or South, look also more like an I2+G2 dominated areas imho, with R-Z2103 in between and no large reservoir of E-V13. But surprises are of course always possible, even though the phylogeny and demography of E-V13 in the Bronze Age suggests imho a different pattern. There could be complex migration patterns though before the LBA.

Cotofeni is an interesting phenomenon to look at and it survived pretty well around the Apuseni mountains and Carpathians. Nyirseg is really interesting in this respect, even more so since Suciu de Sus has elements which look like revived Nyirseg traditions. But Suciu de Sus and Wietenberg had themselves Southern influences from later periods, which might just have survived better.
 
Well, things get quite weird because those I2 (non Slavic subclades) and G2 lineages are mostly inexistent today, where are they then? Archaeologically these people pushed and participated in the so called Aegean migrations. So far archaeological movements no matter how small were recorded and mirrored in genetics and viceversa. This can be like the only exception known.
 
Well, things get quite weird because those I2 (non Slavic subclades) and G2 lineages are mostly inexistent today, where are they then? Archaeologically these people pushed and participated in the so called Aegean migrations. So far archaeological movements no matter how small were recorded and mirrored in genetics and viceversa. This can be like the only exception known.

We know they were there shortly before the LBA-EIA migrations, so the most likely conclusion is that they were hit particularly hard by Tumulus culture-Middle Danubian Urnfield R-L2 expansion, G?va expansions and Noua-Coslogeni (E-V13 and R-Z93 respectively). It is also possible we find them among Paeonians, Greeks and Phrygians, as well as Thracians, their remains.
 
We know they were there shortly before the LBA-EIA migrations, so the most likely conclusion is that they were hit particularly hard by Tumulus culture-Middle Danubian Urnfield R-L2 expansion, G�va expansions and Noua-Coslogeni (E-V13 and R-Z93 respectively). It is also possible we find them among Paeonians, Greeks and Phrygians, as well as Thracians, their remains.

I read somewhere that Maros met their end on the hand of Tumulus expansion initially on MBA. Encrusted Pottery Culture had quite the conflicts with them as well. The shepherd-warriors from Bavaria in the form of Hugelgraber were quite the menace.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top