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Southern Illyrians & Mycenean Greeks on a PCA plot

People in Albania have no clue about genetic testing. Nothing to do with "hiding" anything. In fact, Rrenjet recently did an entire presentation on archeogenetics to the Archeological board since they have no idea what's going on.

Archeogenetics is a new field, and sadly a lot of people just don't really understand it. That's why you need western teams to go in there and get samples.
 
Dibran said:
50 skeletons in late Iron Age Diber? That's interesting. But obviously if they're iron age they certainly aren't Goths. Of course some samples could be more recent depending if they're carbon dated.

Also, I suspect heavy J2b-L283. After a batch I sponsored in Diber, they have some diversity with 2 or 3 samples distantly related to the Iron Age. Including a sample from Bulqize.

J2b-L283 in particular from the 3 paleobalkan lines is pretty diverse in Diber. Insofar as there being a variety of L283 branches. Nit all one clade.
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They were 1600-1700 years ago, and it was a secluded cave. There were no signs of trauma. They speculated it might have been pagan Goths practicing in private, or alternatively Christians who didn't want to be discriminate by Illyrian pagans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSG6Rgjr0FI
 
At the very least this will determine the level of Germanic ancestry in modern Balkans, if it's Goths.
 
mount123 said:
Thank you for for pointing this out Kosovo is indeed under sampled which I feel like people are completely ignoring since they take samples from Albania as representative for regions of Kosovo. I also don't see rrenjet as a good source for inclusivity since they leave important regions out like Dardha (Kamenice).

In regards to J2b-L283 given that we are severely under sampled in Kosovo we actually have quite diverse branches. Ironically I myself am an example as I have pointed out in earlier posts my mother's paternal line is J2b-L283>>>Z631 (Korbi tribe). If I recall correctly on rrenjet there was even this guy from Lipjan (which is severely under sampled) who was J2b-L283>>>PH1602.
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That's not entirely true. Alot of the funds for testing are gathered by participants who contribute. Usually contributing with sponsoring certain regions. For instance before I joined the old and new project, Diber was severely under tested and Macedonia practically not at all. I personally raised money to test Diber and West Macedonia by paying for batches. I also sponsored tested in Opoja and Kruja region.

You're welcome to join the project and contribute yourself with the request of how many samples and what region you would like tested. May take time but it can be done. Unfortunately it's not like the administrators have unlimited funds. It relies heavily on member contributions and sponsorship. Your region is just under sampled like alot of areas.

That can change over time. Even if participating members only sponsored 1-2 tests a month, with everyone chipping in it would make the project grow quite a bit. It's not cheap.
 
Here is my model used for the samples from the Genomic History of Southeastern Europe. They look very similar to "Central Italian_N" with a growing proclivity towards "Minoans".

gq6LWYc.png
 
Riverman was quite insistent upon the i1 in Albanians being from Slavicized Goths.

Being half Kabashi and therefore i1, I wouldn't mind if it's a Gothic sample ;) , but obviously I would definitely prefer it to be Illyrian
 
Jovialis said:
Here is my model used for the samples from the Genomic History of Southeastern Europe. They look very similar to "Central Italian_N" with a growing proclivity towards "Minoans".

gq6LWYc.png
Click to expand...

"Minoan" like ancestry, with its CHG/IN component, was all over the Balkans since the Neolithic, as was "Iberomaurisian". Could the Iberomaurisian be picking up the Neolithic ancestry including something old and Natufian like? Perhaps that would make sense given that Anatolian farmers included ancestry from the Levantine farmers who definitely had it.

So called "Nordic Bronze Age" like ancestry was already in the Balkans in the Early Bronze Age; no need to look for Gothic ancestry which probably isn't there. Significant genetic change doesn't come from rampaging barbarians. It only comes if they bring all their wives and children and settle down, like the Slavic farmers.

As to any "archaeologists" thinking "Slavs" are autochthonous to the Balkans, they're not worthy of the name. They just need to look at your modeling.

Some of these Balkan samples look close to modern Southern Italian samples.
 
Angela said:
"Minoan" like ancestry, with its CHG/IN component, was all over the Balkans since the Neolithic, as was "Iberomaurisian". Could the Iberomaurisian be picking up the Neolithic ancestry including something old and Natufian like? Perhaps that would make sense given that Anatolian farmers included ancestry from the Levantine farmers who definitely had it.

So called "Nordic Bronze Age" like ancestry was already in the Balkans in the Early Bronze Age; no need to look for Gothic ancestry which probably isn't there. Significant genetic change doesn't come from rampaging barbarians. It only comes if they bring all their wives and children and settle down, like the Slavic farmers.

As to any "archaeologists" thinking "Slavs" are autochthonous to the Balkans, they're not worthy of the name. They just need to look at your modeling.

Some of these Balkan samples look close to modern Southern Italian samples.
Click to expand...

All are possibilities for sure. Iberomaurisian probably reflects a deep ancestry, and origins by way of the Levant are a strong possibility, given Patterson et al. 2022.

What is striking to me is that the model works well for everyone in Europe, and some of the periphery; but there's a big cut off in affinity right at the middle east. It jumps from under 4 to over 10 distance and above with the modeling. It probably works well for western Jews, they're heavily mixed with southern Europeans.
 
^^Also, the affinity to southern Italians and some of the ancient Balkan/Greece samples is also very intriguing. Balkans_IA looks very much so.
 
enter_tain said:
They were 1600-1700 years ago, and it was a secluded cave. There were no signs of trauma. They speculated it might have been pagan Goths practicing in private, or alternatively Christians who didn't want to be discriminate by Illyrian pagans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSG6Rgjr0FI
Click to expand...

As I understand it they likely could be locals/captives. There doesn't seem to be any Gothic related ydna in that area so far in moderns. Of course alot could change since then. Only one is likely to be carbon dated. How many went to the lab for testing I'm not sure.
 
Jovialis said:
^^Also, the affinity to southern Italians and some of the ancient Balkan/Greece samples is also very intriguing. Balkans_IA looks very much so.
Click to expand...

FKWuBFd.png
 
Jovialis said:
^^Also, the affinity to southern Italians and some of the ancient Balkan/Greece samples is also very intriguing. Balkans_IA looks very much so.
Click to expand...

I also find it interesting that if you remove that 10-15% "East Asian" like admixture in those Turkish samples, the overall similarity to Greeks is pretty striking. Do you know the source of those particular Turkish samples?
 
Angela said:
I also find it interesting that if you remove that 10-15% "East Asian" like admixture in those Turkish samples, the overall similarity to Greeks is pretty striking. Do you know the source of those particular Turkish samples?
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These are the "updated" samples, from the Apricity.

*Must be taken with a grain of salt.

Nevertheless, the original Dodecad samples follow a similar pattern.
 
Jovialis said:
All are possibilities for sure. Iberomaurisian probably reflects a deep ancestry, and origins by way of the Levant are a strong possibility, given Patterson et al. 2022.

What is striking to me is that the model works well for everyone in Europe, and some of the periphery; but there's a big cut off in affinity right at the middle east. It jumps from under 4 to over 10 distance and above with the modeling. It probably works well for western Jews, they're heavily mixed with southern Europeans.
Click to expand...

Iberomaurusian is likely a relic from E-L618 incursion among Anatolian and latter EEF farmers. But, the E-V13 mutation seems to have been quite diluted with this autosomal, having completely EEF and latter on Steppe on the admix.

Iberomaurusian looks like a mix of ANA + Dzudzuana(Caucasus). The Dzudzuana admixture probably made the Ancient North Africans less robust and less archaic looking.
 
Jovialis said:
These are the "updated" samples, from the Apricity.

*Must be taken with a grain of salt.

Nevertheless, the original Dodecad samples follow a similar pattern.
Click to expand...

The biggest difference I see when comparing the verified Dodecad samples, and the updated ones, is that the British come out very Sintashta for the original set. Thought the others follow a similar modeling.

I found the "updated" version, tempting to use, because it had Aegean Islands samples.

qu2Su3W.png


ko72RYU.png
 
enter_tain said:
Oh for sure. And no surprise since in ancient times their nobility at least intermarried a lot. Pyrrhus of Epirus was adopted by Illyrians, and Philip of Macedonia lived in Illyria as a child.

I have a nutjob theory too. If "Macedonian" referred to highlanders, I wonder if "Molossians" was the same thing but in southern Illyrian. Albanian highlanders are called "Malesors", and we know the word "Mal" was used in southern Illyria (Dimallum). There currently is no etymology tying "Molossian" to Greek.
Click to expand...

https://historyofepirus.wordpress.com/2007/08/18/tribes-of-epirus/


https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Molossians
 
Dibran said:
Yup Nalbani. That's the woman. I agree. It's a shame. Either she really is a deer in the headlights and believes genetics is hocus pocus or she is definitely being paid off by someone out of fear the results of tested Komani graves will crush some narrative our neighbors have. Or even kur government.

I recall the Greek government supposedly prohibiting the Greek academy of sciences from testing royal Macedonian tombs of the Argead era. Probably for similar fears.

Really is sad.
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I thought she ( Etleva Nalbani ) was jewish as she once worked for Hebrew University Institute of Archaeology/ Hebrew University Of Jerusalem in the early 2000's
 
torzio said:
I thought she ( Etleva Nalbani ) was jewish as she once worked for Hebrew University Institute of Archaeology/ Hebrew University Of Jerusalem in the early 2000's
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Albanians have Jews too you know. But honestly I'm not sure. I just know she's against DNA testing of all the Komani cultural sites and any others that fall under her authority.
 
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