Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

[ElHorsto]

All I want to say is that some politicians and some diplomats consider us as stupid,

Ukraine had 2 revolt,
one not armed, and one armed,
yet the result is that Russia manage to get with her bolck Crimea, and soon will split Ukraine,
and some stupid in the 'Free world' want a war and invasion to Russia,
but it is not their sons who will fight,
it is simple people sons who find army as a job, due to poverty,
while some diplomats will steal the glory (Δαφνες αδραξουσιν)
and Ukraine's subject will not be solved,

the whole situation with Ukraine, brought Death and Poverty to Ukrainians, either West either Russian friendly
and loss of earn per capita to nearby countries (Baltic Poland Slovakia) and Greece,
and will bring more if an army campaign take over,
but if in fast solutions Ukraines problem was solved,
today many people would be alive,



as for the rest, are just to make warm-head more warm

It might have violated certain laws, being rough, but any other rational russian president would have done the same with Crimea under these circumstances.

The interesting question is why is there so much reluctance to consider federalization and neutrality by West and Kiev. It is the west who does not accept federalization and neutrality, while Russia certainly would.
Kiev tried to get rid of east Ukrainians at important places (Burisma), blaming Russia. Also Kiev is afraid of peace because this would mean end of money flow.
Ukraine is broke and it seems it's only purpose currently is military.

 

[Ike]

Ukrainians are from those nationalistic Eastern Slavs who refused to mix with Tatars,mixed a lot less with Feno-Ugrians.
So you Russians have no right to rule over Eastern Slavs in Ukraine.
Slavs start to learn you are not Slavs,as culture,neither as behavior and you Russians start to be disliked for what atrocities you are doing against Ukrainian people and how you are destroying their country. Putin wanted to let Ukrainians to die from cold,this winter,are you not ashamed to call yourselves Slavs and brothers to Ukrainians?
Are brothers doing this against other brothers?
I doubt.

It is a fact tat Russians got mixed with other peoples as you go further north or east, but to say they are not Slavic in majority is probably not true.

Look at what happened at the football match between Montenegro and Russia and those are Montenegrins.

I don't watch football, so I don't know what happened.

We Romanians,are also mostly Slavic people,as genetic,as behavior and as culture.You Russians,are not mostly Slavic,neither as genetics,neither as culture,neither as behavior,you only speak an Eastern Slavic language.

So what/who do you recognize as the original Slavic culture (since Russian is not one of them)?

 

[Yetos]

It might have violated certain laws, being rough, but any other rational russian president would have done the same with Crimea under these circumstances.

The interesting question is why is there so much reluctance to consider federalization and neutrality by West and Kiev. It is the west who does not accept federalization and neutrality, while Russia certainly would.
Kiev tried to get rid of east Ukrainians at important places (Burisma), blaming Russia. Also Kiev is afraid of peace because this would mean end of money flow.
Ukraine is broke and it seems it's only purpose currently is military.

I see your point, and your side of view,
indeed it is a good point, in a subject which I do not understand,
if West Ukraines gets its autonomy, that will be a loss for Russia nd Putin,
cause looses land in the map of influence, that had before,
he who steals from Putin is a winner,
in fact we see many ex-East Block countries to turn against Russia, which is a normal re-act against Soviet occupation,
but I never expected Bellarus and Ukraine to leave Russian wagon,
now even a smal province if split from that wagon, it will be a loss for Russia,
and if that split part is supported by 'WEST' then it will possible for another and another piece to split, it will work as a chain reaction, as the years before when communism collapse
but the way diplomacy act in Ukraine's case, seems that WEST is not willing to steal a single province from Russia,
I think Ukraine's politicians are just puppets, or traped by foreign promises,
see Brzezinski promises at twitter

Anyway I always believed that Russia and USA are cooperating in diplomacy,

 

[mihaitzateo]

It is a fact tat Russians got mixed with other peoples as you go further north or east, but to say they are not Slavic in majority is probably not true.



I don't watch football, so I don't know what happened.


So what/who do you recognize as the original Slavic culture (since Russian is not one of them)?

I posted somewhere back,about the fact that supreme leader,of Russians,the Tsar is Golden Horde influence.
Also,it should be noted that all Slavic speakers are very good at agriculture and before Bolshevik regime Russia was largest world food exporter.
Now,Russia is strongly dependent on food imports.
But that time,Russia had Ukraine,now they do not have it anymore.
If most Russians are so Slavic,than how come they do not like to till the land?
Romanian peasants,which were mostly Slavic,were very eager to get land.
After the got land,idiot Bolshevik came took their land and force to work in factories....and they lost their cultural identity.
From this you are seeing someone that he is Slavic,he loves trees ,forests,greenery in general,South Slavs,love a lot mountains.
Also,Slavs are known for being egalitarian society,not Bolshevik,with small properties,for all people,living in brotherhood,not having someone as great leader and others,his servants.
Slavs did not had slaves.
Loving steppes is something that Tatars got,not Slavic people.
Sadly,Romania after stripping the language of Slavic words,now is loosing the love for nature,under idiotic Turkic influence - Istanbul the is the capital with least greenery per inhabitant.
Today Russians seems to love a lot to live in towns,not at the country side.
I have seen common tunes to Romanian folk music in Polish folk songs,I have seen lots of common tunes between Romanian folk and Balkanic South Slavic folk etc.
Russian folk music seems to have strong Fino-Ugrian influence,with those choirs and so much sadness in it.
I will try to study more,about these subjects.
Just seen now an Ukrainian woman who said that Ukrainian dishes are simplified Hutsuls dishes,now Hutsuls are identical to Romanians,as folk songs,lifestyle and foods,only they are speaking Ukrainian.
There is a lot to talk on this matter,anyway,Slavic people,except Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth,were not Imperialists.

 

[Ike]

I will try to study more,about these subjects

You should do that, because analysis you presented here is not conclusive in any way.

So why he mascarades himself?

He is talking nonsense.

 

[Rethel]

He is talking nonsense.

So, tell, where are you from, if I may ask?
Yugoslavia, as a state, doesn't exist any more...

 

[Ike]

So, tell, where are you from, if I may ask?
Yugoslavia, as a state, doesn't exist any more...

Well, that's my nationality. It says on my birth certificate. What if your country ceased to exist, would you consider yourself of different nationality? Or do you consider Poles that were born in 1942. as Germans, since Poland did not exist at that time? I can't change my nationality every 5 years that Empires decide to change borders in Balkans. They probably change it in some database, but I don't have any emotional resonance with the occupation administrative zones.

 

[Rethel]

Well, that's my nationality. It says on my birth certificate. What if your country ceased to exist, would you consider yourself of different nationality? Or do you consider Poles that were born in 1942. as Germans, since Poland did not exist at that time? I can't change my nationality every 5 years that Empires decide to change borders in Balkans. They probably change it in some database, but I don't have any emotional resonance with the occupation administrative zones.

There never was such a nationality as Yugoslavians.
Someone can called themselves Sovietians, but it doesn't mean that such a nationality ever existed.
Don't mix up citizeship with nationality.
Before 1929 never existed state called Yugoslavia, so, whom were you then?

 

[Ike]

You must be aware that borders that were drawn between republics of Yugoslavia were drawn upon spheres of influence of medieval empires that fought to control this area. That's why we have:
https://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/europe/fm_yugoslavia_pol96.jpg


1. Croatia, that has gotten the whole Adriatic. Those were the territories of Venice that were later handed over to Austria by Napoleon. Vatican has always yearned for these territories and has worked hard to close every corridor that Russia could have to warm seas, through it’s (possible) Orthodox allies. That’s why we have a strong clero-fascist agenda in Croatia, supported by Vatican, that escalated into horror during WW2. That’s why Croatia had a lot of mercenaries from EU countries. They wern’t fighting for Croatia and it’s freedom, but for Imperial interests of Western countries, just like they do in Ukraine.


2. That’s why during the last war you have a jump to a 90 % of Croats in Croatia and 86% Catholics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Croatia#Ethnic_groups



3. That’s why they closed the sea for Slovenia, so that they don’t have a coridor to international waters:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia–Slovenia_border_disputes#Attempts_at_dispute_resolution


4. That’s why Bosnia does not have a decent sea access. They just hover over in the mountains and watch the Adriatic, but can’t get down. They’ve got only one small port (Neum) which is blocked by Croatia from all three sides. Again no access to international waters.
http://bosnjaci.net/foto/BiH_Satelit_izlaz_na_more1_big.jpg


5. That’s why Bosnian Serbs who lived near near Dubrovnik were pushed some 15 km away from the coastline. You can see in the lower right corner of the map that although Serbs(orange) were the majority that stripe was given to Muslim-Croat federation.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/sr/thumb/3/38/Bih_ethnic07.jpg/771px-Bih_ethnic07.jpg



6. And it’s nothing unusual, because same pehnomena was allpied with Montenegro. The control of the entrance to Kotor Bay was given to Croatia beyond every sane reasoning. You can see on the map where is Cap Ostro, and you can conclude how that ting may be important. That’s why it was not given to Montenegrins.

http://www.cronet.org/actualites/prevlaka2002.htm
http://www.novosti.rs/upload/images/2014//02/05n/0205-Prevlaka_A.jpg




I can go on like this pages more for all other nationalities of Yugoslavia, but this was a good and obvious example and let’s stop here. I’m perfectly aware that Croatia and Croatians (as recognized today) are just a product of centuries of forced Catholization and indoctrination.

It is obvious that current nationalities in Yugoslavia are equivalent with the religion. Especially funny is the last phenomena when Muslims from central Serbia that never considered or mentioned themselves as Bosniaks, started claimng to be Bosniaks.

So, in the light of all the facts, I cannot conform to what Empires want me to be and to acknowledge false and invented nationalities like Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian, etc...

 

[Rethel]

Ike, my question was totaly different, surely not about sea access...

Allow me to remind you:
Before 1929 never existed state called Yugoslavia, so, whom were you then?

And new one:
Whom are your neighbours now?

 

[Ike]

Ike, my question was totaly different, surely not about sea access...

That was an explanation.

Allow me to remind you:
Before 1929 never existed state called Yugoslavia, so, whom were you then?

Yes, and I was born after 1929.

And new one:
Whom are your neighbours now?

I live in occupied Yugoslavia. Since I ain't Catholic I can't be Croat, since I ain't Othodox I am not a Serb, since I ain't Muslim I am not Bosniak, so you decide...

 

[Rethel]

Yes, and I was born after 1929.

You are an orphan or what?

so you decide...

If you don't know who you are, how can I know?
I don't even know where you are living and whom your parents or (great)grandparents were.

 

[mihaitzateo]

Such nation as "Yugoslavs" never existed.
There is indeed a single language with different dialects.
Sure,it would be possible to exist a federation between Serbians,Croats,Bosnians,Montenegrins,but only if all agree to not try to take most power for their nation.

 

[Ike]

Such nation as "Yugoslavs" never existed.
There is indeed a single language with different dialects.
Sure,it would be possible to exist a federation between Serbians,Croats,Bosnians,Montenegrins,but only if all agree to not try to take most power for their nation.

Yes there is, as same as German nation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslavs#Ethnicity

"The 1971 census recorded 273,077 Yugoslav, or 1.33% of the total population. The 1981 census recorded 1,216,463 or 5.4% Yugoslavs. In the 1991 census, 5.54% (242,682) of the inhabitants of Bosnia and Herzegovina declared themselves to be Yugoslav."

There are still many thousands of Yugoslavs around, but less and less since the breakup because people choose not to identify with that nationality but the ethnicity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslavs_in_Serbia

 

[LeBrok]

If you don't know who you are, how can I know?
.

Seams like a complicated matter, perhaps in this case self-designation is the best. If Ike wants to be Yugoslavian, let him be. A different matter might be what is written in one's identification documents. Most likely it says Serbian.

 

[Tomenable]

Slavs are known for being egalitarian society (...) not having someone as great leader and others

Ardagast, Musocius, Peiragast, Dauritas, Boz, Dabragezas, Kelagast, Chilbudius and others disagree:

http://www.jassa.org/?p=915

 

[Rethel]

Seams like a complicated matter, perhaps in this case self-designation is the best. If Ike wants to be Yugoslavian, let him be. A different matter might be what is written in one's identification documents. Most likely it says Serbian.

Probably you are right.

I allways distinguish:
- nationality/"tribelity"/ethnicity (which should be the same as forefathers)
- counrty (which doesnt has to be a state)
- state citizeship - it is obvious.

Two last could be a matter of choice of course.

Ardagast, Musocius, Peiragast, Dauritas, Boz, Dabragezas, Kelagast, Chilbudius and others disagree:

http://www.jassa.org/?p=915

Thanks Tomenable, you make me smile :grin:

This ilustrations are awesome!
But here (f.e.) are even better: http://www.jassa.org/?p=889
I never thought about polish legends like that

(I don't read yet, but later I will)
-------------------------------------------
Ardagast, Musocius, Peiragast, Dauritas, Boz, Dabragezas, Kelagast, Chilbudius

These names always were very interesting for me, because couple
of similar to them we can find among Germanians and Huns.

Ardagast it seem be the same as Radagast (and Radagays).
In modern slavic it should be Radogost (in polish: Radogoszcz)

Musocius - I have no idea what it could be.
Maybe some form of Meszek/Mieszko?
Or maybe Mężok, but in so old name there shouldnt
be u replaced ę, so this is only my unlucky guess.

Peiragast... hmmm... it seems to be currupt too...
Poregost? (like Porevit) or Pierugost? (like Perun or pierun or piorun)

Dauritas...? Maybe some baltic or iranian seems to be similiar to Darius (Dārayavahuš,)?

Boz... mayve have something common with bog, "god"?
Could it be a short form of for exaple Bożydar? Gift of God
One is sure Boz was a boss

Dabragezas - it seems to be Dobrogost = "Good guest".

Kelagast - this is probably to old name, but surly slavic.
Maybe it has the same root as name kalisz, (+ gost of course)

A brother of Kaligast was named Mezamir.
Maybe it is some old slavic, corrupted by Greek name like: Mężomir - menlish peace.

Chilbudius - I have no idea. Maybe this name has baltic etimology? Like Budvid, Budikid.
Chvalibąd? But is is fantasy. I dont no, it seems to be corrupt.

 

[Ike]

Probably you are right.

I allways distinguish:
- nationality/"tribelity"/ethnicity (which should be the same as forefathers)
- counrty (which doesnt has to be a state)
- state citizeship - it is obvious.

Two last could be a matter of choice of course.

We also differ nationality and ethnicity. For example one can be of American nation (as they say on TV), but they are usually of German, French, Irish, English ethnicity. More than that, there is a micro-territorial difference inside one ethnicity. Croatian may be - Zagorac, Istrian, Dalmatian, etc. Since all the territories didn't belong to the same Empire, there is an obvious cultural difference, and since there was a geographical mismatch there is also a genetic difference which is often obvious from physical appearance.

In the Dinaric mountains is more widespread phenomenon of clans (brotherhoods). Brotherhoods were sometimes more important than ethnicity or the state itself. It is a well known case that Muslim Albanian brotherhood of Gashi guarded a Serbian Orthodox monastery for centuries during the Ottoman occupation, until the land was given back to the king. They did it for free, just because one of their ancestors gave his word of honor.

If you are so hell bent to define me better all of my 8 ancestors are spread from borders of Slovenia to Macedonia, and maybe best match would be Dalmatian or Herzegovian.

 

[Rethel]

For example one can be of American nation (as they say on TV), but they are usually of German, French, Irish, English ethnicity.

Yeah.

More than that, there is a micro-territorial difference inside one ethnicity. Croatian may be - Zagorac, Istrian, Dalmatian, etc. Since all the territories didn't belong to the same Empire, there is an obvious cultural difference, and since there was a geographical mismatch there is also a genetic difference which is often obvious from physical appearance.

It is - i would say - a countries diversity.

In the Dinaric mountains is more widespread phenomenon of clans (brotherhoods).

Zadruga is not only dynarian phenomenon.
I rather would sey, that in the past it was normal.
This I joined to the first category as subcategory.

Brotherhoods were sometimes more important than ethnicity or the state itself. It is a well known case that Muslim Albanian brotherhood of Gashi guarded a Serbian Orthodox monastery for centuries during the Ottoman occupation, until the land was given back to the king. They did it for free, just because one of their ancestors gave his word of honor.

Chapeau bas...

If you are so hell bent to define me better all of my 8 ancestors are spread from borders of Slovenia to Macedonia, and maybe best match would be Dalmatian or Herzegovian.

As you can see on my profile on the left, I don't care very much about 7 of them. :innocent:
So if you care, how can you distinguish nationalities inside the Americans as you wrote at the beginning?

 

[Yetos]

Such nation as "Yugoslavs" never existed.
There is indeed a single language with different dialects.
Sure,it would be possible to exist a federation between Serbians,Croats,Bosnians,Montenegrins,but only if all agree to not try to take most power for their nation.

how would you call, a Texan, a Yankee, a Dixie, and an Alaskan?or why a MagnaGrecian, a Cretan, a Rumlar, an Epirotan be different nations?or you prefer a Moldavian, a Moldovan, a Carpathian, and Dobruca nation?
generally with term South Slavs you mean the Serbo-Croats, Fyrom and Bulgariabut with Yugo-Slavs the Serbo-Croat speakers and part of Fyrom,
yet although are 3 nations today,3 religions today, and 3 cultures, does mean mean that they are not Yugo-slavs,
exception of Yugoslavs in ex Yugoslavia are Montenegrins and maybe Slovenoi.

Now can you tell me if I say I am Americanwhat nation am I?