Neolithic Refuge and Continuity in Transylvania

[Riverman]

I am pointing out that we already have Urnfield DNA from 1300-1200BC which is when Urnfield was expanding. They plotted nothing like Basarabs and were closest to Polish people of today.

I don't know why you are obsessed with Urnfield, by the time Basarabs or Thracians were expanding Urnfield had ended and was only surviving with Lusatians. Kurgans had nothing to do with Urnfield which is what these E-V13 people were using, why are you ignoring that fact?

Gáva was a different beast altogether. You seem to lack the basic understanding of these being completely different people.
There was no big scale Lusatian-related migration into the Carpathian basin, that didn't exixt. These were locals from the Tisza groups like Suciu de Sus, Igrita and Berkesz-Demecser.
Read up on those people, they cremated their dead before most other Central Europeans did. Suciu de Sus emerged from around 1.600-1.500 BC onward.

 

[TetaEglantina]

Gáva was a different beast altogether. You seem to lack the basic understanding of these being completely different people.
There was no big scale Lusatian-related migration into the Carpathian basin, that didn't exixt. These were locals from the Tisza groups like Suciu de Sus, Igrita and Berkesz-Demecser.
Read up on those people, they cremated their dead before most other Central Europeans did. Suciu de Sus emerged from around 1.600-1.500 BC onward.

Right and I agree with that which is why it is silly to constantly mention Urnfield. Especially considering these samples were using kurgans.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

This is the PCA graph from the paper, I rotated the traditional Europe1 format and copied and pasted the Poltava samples in the EIA graph so one can see how the Babadag samples relate to these Poltava's E-V13 dominated local elites.

The Polatava samples are just more steppe shifted versions of Babadag, with a little stronger East Asian pull and one individual has a strong MENA pull.
The brown triangle without a black border I believe is the average of the Thracian-Hallstats without the outlier, that's the average the graph indicates around 31% Yamanya. One has to keep in mind LBK neolothic is not pure Barcin and has some WHG built in which would skew the Qpdam model to smaller Yamnaya component, so the real Yamanaya average is likely 33-34%.

 

[Riverman]

According to Pribislav:

Pribislav Bilsk samples are not particularly relevant to the E-V13 discussion, since all three of them seem to be L618 (xV13).

Because they used some outdated classification where L618 and V13 SNPs are at the same level.

If correct, and he usually is, this is an interesting turn of events. E-L618 being confirmed to be fairly widespread in Europe, due to the new FF assignments and a lot more basal testers from e.g. England, Lithuania, basically all over Europe - and we got the ancient DNA samples from Varna, Usatovo and BA Crete.

Kind of a bummer for our E-V13 quest, but interesting nonetheless.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

According to Pribislav:





If correct, and he usually is, this is an interesting turn of events. E-L618 being confirmed to be fairly widespread in Europe, due to the new FF assignments and a lot more basal testers from e.g. England, Lithuania, basically all over Europe - and we got the ancient DNA samples from Varna, Usatovo and BA Crete.

Kind of a bummer for our E-V13 quest, but interesting nonetheless.

I don't think he is correct, to me it looks like an issue of coverage, I am no expert but this sticks out like a sore thumb.

 

[Riverman]

Would be great to get a full scale confirmation and more downstream assignment for all samples. FTDNA would be best to do this, but they still haven't processed the latest Hungarian sampels yet.

Prbislav confirmed UKR007 being E-V13, which is kind of the most important confirmation for E-V13 in this paper.

He posted the table for the Bilsk samples and it looks indeed like they belong to a new E-L618 branch. Presumably they are related males.

 

[Aahmes]

Would be great to get a full scale confirmation and more downstream assignment for all samples. FTDNA would be best to do this, but they still haven't processed the latest Hungarian sampels yet.

Prbislav confirmed UKR007 being E-V13, which is kind of the most important confirmation for E-V13 in this paper.

He posted the table for the Bilsk samples and it looks indeed like they belong to a new E-L618 branch. Presumably they are related males.

This is very unusual. How is it that L618 xV13 populations existed as late as 500 BC but have seemingly gone near extinct in the present? This isn't the only case of L618 xV13 ancient samples that existed past the first population explosion of E-V13 ~2000 BC.

 

[Riverman]

This is very unusual. How is it that L618 xV13 populations existed as late as 500 BC but have seemingly gone near extinct in the present? This isn't the only case of L618 xV13 ancient samples that existed past the first population explosion of E-V13 ~2000 BC.

E-L618 was fairly widespread in Europe and we already know it persisted in steppe groups like Usatovo and the Aegean sphere.

Keep in mind that while E-V13 is now the main branch by far, E-L618 was quite common in Neolithic/Copper Age Europe.

In my opinion, its one of the Usatovo/Tripolye-Cucuteni E-L618 spectrum, from which the E-V13 survivor emerged. Therefore those E-L618 found might largely been from the same Tripolye-Cucuteni/Petresti group from which E-V13 descends from, just being less successful. Like I wrote quite often, I still think that E-V13 emerging as a ever more prominent branch in Cotofeni is most likely.
Cotofeni received steppe influx from Western steppe groups closely related to Usatovo.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I'm not convinced because the archeologists from the paper clearly mention Bassarab tribes settling the area and in the PCA graph they are just shifted Babadag, they are not some other group autosomal wise. The only metric missing is an IBD analysis which would map out relations.

 

[Riverman]

Actually I wouldn't completely exclude the survival of various E-L618 branches somewhere between the bulk of E-V13 as well. It's just they had no parallel growth anywhere near comparable to that of E-V13.

 

[TetaEglantina]

According to Pribislav:





If correct, and he usually is, this is an interesting turn of events. E-L618 being confirmed to be fairly widespread in Europe, due to the new FF assignments and a lot more basal testers from e.g. England, Lithuania, basically all over Europe - and we got the ancient DNA samples from Varna, Usatovo and BA Crete.

Kind of a bummer for our E-V13 quest, but interesting nonetheless.

E-L618 is almost extinct in Europe -

E-L618 YTree

www.yfull.com

It mostly exists in north africa. Where are the England and Lithuanian samples, I doubt they are ancient?

 

[Riverman]

They are moderns, yes.

 

[TetaEglantina]

These samples being L-618 makes sense now because Thracians were not using kurgans, they were mostly cremating - that was confusing me when I first saw this, which is why I mentioned these could be Cimmerians/proto Scythians. I think Thracian adna will have a bit more WHG ancestry than these samples due to a closer relationship to central Europe and Urnfield/post Urnfield.

 

[Riverman]

In numbers, on FTDNA there are today 11.293 E-V13 testers vs. 39 basal E-L618 ones.
Downstream of E-L618 are 11.429, which makes all in all about 136 E-L618 members, both basal and downstream.

To put that into context, about 1,2 % of all E-L618 males are not E-V13. That's not a lot, but its not a dead end either, because we have actual lineages which are far below those numbers, including some which were, in the distant past, much more widespread in Eurasia.

The distribution is more West-Central European heavy, overall, which makes me wonder whether they are from the Carpathians-steppe, or older survivors from e.g. Michelsberg and Lengyel, or from Greeks etc.

 

[torzio]

@Riverman

Is not this E ydna from Varna Culture Bulgaria and then moved west to Roman Moesia , that is Dardania ?

Data from a decade ago is below

 

[torzio]

Early contact between late farming and pastoralist societies in southeastern Europe

Archaeogenetic studies have described two main genetic turnover events in prehistoric western Eurasia: one associated with the spread of farming and a sedentary lifestyle starting around 7000–6000  (refs. [–] ) and a second with ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Archaeogenetic studies have described two main genetic turnover events in prehistoric western Eurasia: one associated with the spread of farming and a sedentary lifestyle starting around 7000–6000 bc (refs. 1–3) and a second with the expansion of pastoralist groups from the Eurasian steppes starting around 3300 bc

 

[PaleoRevenge]

This is PCA graph in our familiar format. The Geloni Scythians are both baltic shifted and Asian shifted, this is in agreement of these people being Thraco-Cimmerians in a way. They are likely E-V13 dominated even if the particular clan was only L618, culturally it's clearly traced to the Bassarabi culture block.

The Babadag samples are also Asian shifted(not all).

The Babadag samples should correspond to these samples, with the exception of northern European outlier and a Cimmerian shifted individual.

 

[Aahmes]

E-L618 was fairly widespread in Europe and we already know it persisted in steppe groups like Usatovo and the Aegean sphere.

Keep in mind that while E-V13 is now the main branch by far, E-L618 was quite common in Neolithic/Copper Age Europe.

In my opinion, its one of the Usatovo/Tripolye-Cucuteni E-L618 spectrum, from which the E-V13 survivor emerged. Therefore those E-L618 found might largely been from the same Tripolye-Cucuteni/Petresti group from which E-V13 descends from, just being less successful. Like I wrote quite often, I still think that E-V13 emerging as a ever more prominent branch in Cotofeni is most likely.
Cotofeni received steppe influx from Western steppe groups closely related to Usatovo.

There are recent samples however, it would mean whatever bottlenecked V13 did not eliminate L618. Most existing L618 is north african or middle eastern so you would not expect iron age L618 samples in a place where you would normally find V13.

I would have expected that L618 was mostly eliminated by around 2000 BC.

 

[Riverman]

There are recent samples however, it would mean whatever bottlenecked V13 did not eliminate L618. Most existing L618 is north african or middle eastern so you would not expect iron age L618 samples in a place where you would normally find V13.

I would have expected that L618 was mostly eliminated by around 2000 BC.

It was too widespread for being easily eliminated. What happened is rather that they had no big founder event of any sort, so they kind of survived in the background, at a low level, in many regions.

 

[Aahmes]

It was too widespread for being easily eliminated. What happened is rather that they had no big founder event of any sort, so they kind of survived in the background, at a low level, in many regions.

But that's not what we see. L618 xV13 appears to be practically extinct in Europe and only exists North Africa and recently Iraq and the Caucuses. This is what makes these samples surprising