Lombard vs Roman Y-DNA and mtDNA from northern Italy and Hungary

Maciamo

Maciamo

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The study on Lombard DNA by Amorim et al. (2018) was already discussed a few months ago as part of a preliminary paper, but did not yet include the Y-DNA and mtDNA tables. This is still a pre-print, but at least we can see what haplogroups the Lombards carried.

The admixtures for each sample are available on this chart to confirm which sample is autosomally Lombard (in blue) or Roman (in red and green).
FFubFj4.png


Here is the Y-DNA table from the study. I have added the mtDNA in the right column and coloured in red the sample number for those that were autosomally predominantly South European. Those that were very mixed are in blue and red. The others are predominantly Northwest European/Germanic.

CL38E1b1b1a1b1a3PF2211X2
CL31Z6644H18
CL63Z79H
CL23L446H
CL110M694-
CL53PF6434H11a
CL57L151H24a
CL93L151J2b1a
CL145L151T2b
CL146L151T2b3
CL92L52H
CL84Z381H1t
CL30S116I1b
CL49Z367-
CL94S11987 (DF99)K1c1
CL121Z2103H1i2





SZ18CTS2817H13a1a2
SZ45L22J1c
SZ12CTS9183W6
SZ14CTS9183I3
SZ24CTS9183U4b
SZ43S391H1e
SZ3S390H18
SZ13ZS20N1b1b1
SZ22ZS20N1b1b1
SZ7ZS20T2e
SZ36PF5620U4c2a
SZ15S200H1c1
SZ4Z16H1c9
SZ16Z381U4b1b
SZ23Z381H13a1a2
SZ2L130T1a1
SZ11Z351K2a3
SZ27BS116N1a1a1a1
SZ37S116H66a
SZ42S116K2a6
SZ5CTS1595J2b1

[TD="bgcolor: #FF0000"] G2a1a1 [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #47CFFF"] I1a3 [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #CCCC00"]T1a2b[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a2a[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a2a[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a2a1a[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a2a1a[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a2a1a[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a2a1a[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a2a1a[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a2a1a2c1g1a1[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a1a2a1a2[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a1a2a1a2b1a[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"] R1b1a1a2a1a2f [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"] R1b1a2a2 [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"]E1b1b1a1b2[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #47CFFF"] I1a1b1 [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #19C3FF"] I2a2a1 [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #19C3FF"] I2a2a1 [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #19C3FF"] I2a2a1 [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #19C3FF"] I2a2a1a2a1a [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #19C3FF"] I2a2a1b2a2 [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #19C3FF"] I2a2a1b2a2a2 [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #19C3FF"] I2a2a1b2a2a2 [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #19C3FF"] I2a2a1b2a2a2 [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #CCCC00"]T1a1a[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #9966FF"]R1a1a1b1a3a[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a2a1a1b[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a2a1a1c[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a2a1a1c[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a1a1[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a1a2a1a2[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a1a2a1a2[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a1a2a1a2[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b[/TD]

The autosomally Germanic samples belong to:

- I1-L22 (1 sample)
- I2a2a-L801 (4 samples including three ZS20)
- R1a-Z284 (1 sample, L448+)
- R1b-U106 (including three Z381, two L48>Z9 and one Z16)

One sample was reported as I1a3, which should be I1-Z63, but the SNP listed was Z79, which belongs to a deep clade of I2a2a-L801. So it isn't clear which it is. Surely a typo.

There is no surprise, except maybe that the haplogroup composition is so high in I2a2a-L801 and has few I1, but that is probably a sampling bias (too small sample size). All the haplogroups are unambiguously Germanic and even South Scandinavian in their subclades, which is in agreement with the origins of the Lombards in Scania (southern Sweden).

The samples that were autosomally South European included the following haplogroups:

- E-V13
- G2a1a
- I2a2a-L1229 (also found in Megalithic cultures)
- R1b-Z2103
- T1a1a

One R1b-S116 (P312) samples was fully Germanic, one was fully South European, and the third one was mixed.

Two samples (CL49 and SZ5) belong to R1b-U152 (L2>Z367 and Z36>Z37), but unfortunately both are about half CEU and half TSI (+IBS for SZ5), so their origins are inconclusive. Alpine Celts would probably have such mixed ancestry though. But the Z36 branch is more likely Italic/Roman.

The E-V22 and R1b-DF99 and one R1b-Z381 also had mixed ancestry.
 
Thank you! Do you have any theories on why there are no Slavic clades there? There are known historical associations between the Slavs and Longobards, and the Longobard migration to Italy probably followed decades of living side by side with Slavic tribes. Instead the mixed ones look more southeaster. It's as if the Slavic migrations had not happened yet.
 
Ownstyler said:
Thank you! Do you have any theories on why there are no Slavic clades there? There are known historical associations between the Slavs and Longobards, and the Longobard migration to Italy probably followed decades of living side by side with Slavic tribes. Instead the mixed ones look more southeaster. It's as if the Slavic migrations had not happened yet.
Click to expand...

Why would there be Slavic clades? They are Lombards, not Goths. The Lombards descended straight from Scania to Italy via Germany, Austria and Hungary. They never passed through Slavic territories.
 
The haplogroups debunk the notion floated around certain other sites that the more South European samples are Arabs or Jews or some other Near Easterners. I expect the upcoming Imperial Rome paper to not contradict the implication of related admixture being more spread around the peninsula than the Nordicist narrative suggests.
 
Surprising that the I1 frequency is so low and that there's not I1a2 (Z58) branches. Very nice to see these results.
 
I looked at CL23 ( buried in Italy ), born in the balkans ?
He has Helbus reading of Bulgarian
.
Helbus - Hellenthal et al. (p. 747) describe a method, using a technique called chromosome painting, to follow the genetic traces of admixture back to the nearest extant population. The approach revealed details of worldwide human admixture history over the past 4000 years.
.
His IBS seems to be via his mtdna of H
.
his closest ancient match is via neolthic Hungarian ...........maybe even Sopot culture.
.
There is chit-chat around that 1000 genomes system is now outdated as no marker/ID covers the balkans or eastern europe
 
Maciamo said:
Why would there be Slavic clades? They are Lombards, not Goths. The Lombards descended straight from Scania to Italy via Germany, Austria and Hungary. They never passed through Slavic territories.
Click to expand...

The paper had samples from Pannonia. Hungarians had not arrived there yet, so the mixed haplogroups "should" have been Slavs, Avars, other Germanics, or just pre-migration locals.
 
Ownstyler said:
The paper had samples from Pannonia. Hungarians had not arrived there yet, so the mixed haplogroups "should" have been Slavs, Avars, other Germanics, or just pre-migration locals.
Click to expand...

The Slavic expansion had barely begun by the time Lombards went from Hungary to Italy. I wouldn't expect a lot of Slavs in Hungary that early. Romanized local Pannonians, yes, maybe some Romanized Illyrians and Dacians too, and certainly an increasing number of Germanic populations, but even the Avars were just arriving in the Pannonian plain in the early-mid 6th century AD, they became dominant in the later part of that century. Slavs according to some authors took advantage of the structures of the Avar Empire, their language possibly even became a lingua franca, but the Slavic westward spread (impacting Hungary strongly) was most definitely not as early as 450-550 AD, which is the approximate time Lombards lived in Hungary. By 568 AD they were already conquering Italy and wouldn't mix much with newcomers to Pannonia any longer.
 
Hey mtdna H1e, first in Neolithic Germany and Wielbark, now in migration age Pannonia as well.
 
Maciamo said:
Why would there be Slavic clades? They are Lombards, not Goths. The Lombards descended straight from Scania to Italy via Germany, Austria and Hungary. They never passed through Slavic territories.
Click to expand...

Weren't there Slavs in Austria and Hungary at least since the 6th-7th centuries AD?

These samples from Szolad in Hungary appear genetically Slavic (culturally Avar?):

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...vic-)-Women-from-Szolad-(Hungary)-on-GEDmatch

Ygorcs said:
The Slavic expansion had barely begun by the time Lombards went from Hungary to Italy. I wouldn't expect a lot of Slavs in Hungary that early. Romanized local Pannonians, yes, maybe some Romanized Illyrians and Dacians too, and certainly an increasing number of Germanic populations, but even the Avars were just arriving in the Pannonian plain in the early-mid 6th century AD, they became dominant in the later part of that century. Slavs according to some authors took advantage of the structures of the Avar Empire, their language possibly even became a lingua franca, but the Slavic westward spread (impacting Hungary strongly) was most definitely not as early as 450-550 AD, which is the approximate time Lombards lived in Hungary. By 568 AD they were already conquering Italy and wouldn't mix much with newcomers to Pannonia any longer.
Click to expand...

I guess this explains it.

These "genetically Slavic" samples from Szolad are from late 500s - early 600s.
 
Maciamo said:
The study on Lombard DNA by Amorim et al. (2018) was already discussed a few months ago as part of a preliminary paper, but did not yet include the Y-DNA and mtDNA tables. This is still a pre-print, but at least we can see what haplogroups the Lombards carried.

The admixtures for each sample are available on this chart to confirm which sample is autosomally Lombard (in blue) or Roman (in red and green).
FFubFj4.png


Here is the Y-DNA table from the study. I have added the mtDNA in the right column and coloured in red the sample number for those that were autosomally predominantly South European. Those that were very mixed are in blue and red. The others are predominantly Northwest European/Germanic.

CL38E1b1b1a1b1a3PF2211X2
CL31Z6644H18
CL63Z79H
CL23L446H
CL110M694-
CL53PF6434H11a
CL57L151H24a
CL93L151J2b1a
CL145L151T2b
CL146L151T2b3
CL92L52H
CL84Z381H1t
CL30S116I1b
CL49Z367-
CL94S11987 (DF99)K1c1
CL121Z2103H1i2





SZ18CTS2817H13a1a2
SZ45L22J1c
SZ12CTS9183W6
SZ14CTS9183I3
SZ24CTS9183U4b
SZ43S391H1e
SZ3S390H18
SZ13ZS20N1b1b1
SZ22ZS20N1b1b1
SZ7ZS20T2e
SZ36PF5620U4c2a
SZ15S200H1c1
SZ4Z16H1c9
SZ16Z381U4b1b
SZ23Z381H13a1a2
SZ2L130T1a1
SZ11Z351K2a3
SZ27BS116N1a1a1a1
SZ37S116H66a
SZ42S116K2a6
SZ5CTS1595J2b1

[TD="bgcolor: #FF0000"] G2a1a1 [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #47CFFF"] I1a3 [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #CCCC00"]T1a2b[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a2a[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a2a[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a2a1a[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a2a1a[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a2a1a[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a2a1a[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a2a1a[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a2a1a2c1g1a1[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a1a2a1a2[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a1a2a1a2b1a[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"] R1b1a1a2a1a2f [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"] R1b1a2a2 [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"]E1b1b1a1b2[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #47CFFF"] I1a1b1 [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #19C3FF"] I2a2a1 [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #19C3FF"] I2a2a1 [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #19C3FF"] I2a2a1 [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #19C3FF"] I2a2a1a2a1a [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #19C3FF"] I2a2a1b2a2 [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #19C3FF"] I2a2a1b2a2a2 [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #19C3FF"] I2a2a1b2a2a2 [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #19C3FF"] I2a2a1b2a2a2 [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #CCCC00"]T1a1a[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #9966FF"]R1a1a1b1a3a[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a2a1a1b[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a2a1a1c[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a2a1a1c[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a1a1[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a1a2a1a2[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a1a2a1a2[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a1a2a1a2[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #92D050"]R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b[/TD]

The autosomally Germanic samples belong to:

- I1-L22 (1 sample)
- I2a2a-L801 (4 samples including three ZS20)
- R1a-Z284 (1 sample, L448+)
- R1b-U106 (including three Z381, two L48>Z9 and one Z16)

One sample was reported as I1a3, which should be I1-Z63, but the SNP listed was Z79, which belongs to a deep clade of I2a2a-L801. So it isn't clear which it is. Surely a typo.

There is no surprise, except maybe that the haplogroup composition is so high in I2a2a-L801 and has few I1, but that is probably a sampling bias (too small sample size). All the haplogroups are unambiguously Germanic and even South Scandinavian in their subclades, which is in agreement with the origins of the Lombards in Scania (southern Sweden).

The samples that were autosomally South European included the following haplogroups:

- E-V13
- G2a1a
- I2a2a-L1229 (also found in Megalithic cultures)
- R1b-Z2103
- T1a1a

One R1b-S116 (P312) samples was fully Germanic, one was fully South European, and the third one was mixed.

Two samples (CL49 and SZ5) belong to R1b-U152 (L2>Z367 and Z36>Z37), but unfortunately both are about half CEU and half TSI (+IBS for SZ5), so their origins are inconclusive. Alpine Celts would probably have such mixed ancestry though. But the Z36 branch is more likely Italic/Roman.

The E-V22 and R1b-DF99 and one R1b-Z381 also had mixed ancestry.
Click to expand...
Any news on whether CL63 is really I1-Z63 and not I2-Z79?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Eupedia Forum mobile app
 
As for v13, you can not have deeper clades or STR markers? Although it has been defined as southern europe, could it not be a descendant of Greek colonists of the sixth century ahead of Christ or Byzantine?
Can not establish correlations with the current inhabitants? In these studies they never, given current knowledge, to go a little 'deeper' through local history?
 
Last edited:
I1a3_Young said:
Any news on whether CL63 is really I1-Z63 and not I2-Z79?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Eupedia Forum mobile app
Click to expand...
I have the answer. CL63 is I1-DF29 and negative for Z63, L22. SZ45 is listed as positive for BOTH Z63 and L22 which is impossible. It's probably one or the other.

There were some WGS data available for a handful of them....very cool info on the U106 samples being run with by the U106 enthusiast crowd.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Eupedia Forum mobile app
 
I1a3_Young said:
I have the answer. CL63 is I1-DF29 and negative for Z63, L22. SZ45 is listed as positive for BOTH Z63 and L22 which is impossible. It's probably one or the other.

There were some WGS data available for a handful of them....very cool info on the U106 samples being run with by the U106 enthusiast crowd.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Eupedia Forum mobile app
Click to expand...

I downloaded a BAM viewer (IGV) and obtained the CL63 BAM from NCBI. I looked at CL63.

Results: Z63+, S2077+, PR683+, L1237-
CL63.PNG


Sample SZ45 is L22, P109, and some downstream. It's being added to YFull.
 
I1a3_Young said:
I downloaded a BAM viewer (IGV) and obtained the CL63 BAM from NCBI. I looked at CL63.

Results: Z63+, S2077+, PR683+, L1237-
View attachment 10646

Sample SZ45 is L22, P109, and some downstream. It's being added to YFull.
Click to expand...

can you try CL23 please
 
I1a3_Young said:
CL23 T1a2b L446Southern Europe

I'm not familiar with T. I'd need a list of hg19 positions to check further.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Eupedia Forum mobile app
Click to expand...

Thanks, CL23: Y T1a2B L446

Gedmatch ID: Z909242

Dodecad V3:

Using 2 populations approximation:
50% S_Italian_Dodecad +50% N._European_Xing @ 2.237386

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Tuscan_Xing @ 5.631067
2 Tuscan_Henn @ 5.789172
3 TSI_HapMap @ 5.890182
4 O_Italian_Dodecad @ 12.158504
5 N_Italian_Dodecad @ 12.402679
6 Tuscan_HGDP @ 16.422783
7 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar @ 16.593323
8 North_Italian_HGDP @ 17.688528
9 Ashkenazi_Dodecad @ 17.841017
10 C_Italian_Dodecad @ 17.930902
11 Portuguese_Dodecad @ 19.748495
12 Romanians_14_Behar @ 21.162502
13 French_HGDP @ 21.530539
14 IBS_1000Genomes @ 21.712353
15 French_Dodecad @ 21.973799
16 Slovenian_Xing @ 22.102324
17 Spaniards_Behar @ 22.287905
18 Spanish_Dodecad @ 22.587999
19 S_Italian_Sicilian_Dodecad @ 23.333891
20 Morocco_Jews_Behar @ 24.114454
 
Salento said:
Thanks, CL23: Y T1a2B L446

Gedmatch ID: Z909242

Dodecad V3:

Using 2 populations approximation:
50% S_Italian_Dodecad +50% N._European_Xing @ 2.237386

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Tuscan_Xing @ 5.631067
2 Tuscan_Henn @ 5.789172
3 TSI_HapMap @ 5.890182
4 O_Italian_Dodecad @ 12.158504
5 N_Italian_Dodecad @ 12.402679
6 Tuscan_HGDP @ 16.422783
7 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar @ 16.593323
8 North_Italian_HGDP @ 17.688528
9 Ashkenazi_Dodecad @ 17.841017
10 C_Italian_Dodecad @ 17.930902
11 Portuguese_Dodecad @ 19.748495
12 Romanians_14_Behar @ 21.162502
13 French_HGDP @ 21.530539
14 IBS_1000Genomes @ 21.712353
15 French_Dodecad @ 21.973799
16 Slovenian_Xing @ 22.102324
17 Spaniards_Behar @ 22.287905
18 Spanish_Dodecad @ 22.587999
19 S_Italian_Sicilian_Dodecad @ 23.333891
20 Morocco_Jews_Behar @ 24.114454
Click to expand...

I was trying to get more SNP from this person
he might be like the viking Canute who was T1a2-PH46 ....which is a split from our branch
 
Sile said:
I was trying to get more SNP from this person
he might be like the viking Canute who was T1a2-PH46 ....which is a split from our branch
Click to expand...
I'll check if you give me an organized snp list in hg19 format. Similar to what I posted above.

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