Kosovo

[Marko94]

The facts remains. The Catholic Church does not remember even to Africa and Asia that one nation converted from Catholicism to Islam and interestingly,

I think you don't understand.
In that time, if pope wanted to make crusades who tell according to you? Serb?Chinese? Indian? No, of course the Albanians because they was catholic.
The Turks at that time were afraid of another crusade.
At that time, the Turks were afraid of who was "Catholic" (albanian, bosnian or serb) Because he was faithful to the pope.

 

[Garrick]

Read all his answers in the thread actually. It's worth it. BTW he's a Serbian scholar specialized in the Balkans, so I don't think he's biased towards Albanians.
[/COLOR]

Muslim inhabitants of the towns in Ottoman empire (today's Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece etc.) were Turks, Caucasian Muslims, Arabs etc. Yes, there are local Muslims too. Yes, I wrote that some Bulgarian, Serb, Greek etc. converted to Islam but it was not widely as at Albanians.

We all know that today's Bosniacs (in Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro) and Pomaks (in today's Bulgaria, Greece and Turkey) are Muslims. And someone could conclude that as Albanians converted to Islam so the Slavic population converted to Islam (although less).

Facts are that Balkan Slavic inhabitants (Bulgarians, Serbs, Croats etc.) converted to Islam to a small extent. But we here discuss about massive converting and in a short time. We should know that cases of Bosniacs and Albanians are poorly comparable (and Pomaks too).

Why?

Because today's Bosniacs are Slavic Muslims who converted to Islam from the oriental sects. In the Balkans, except for Orthodox and Catholic Christians, Slavic population partly belonged to oriental sects, mostly to Bogomils.

From Encyclopedia Britannica:

"The Bogomils’ central teaching, based on a dualistic cosmology, was that the visible, material world was created by the devil. Thus, they denied the doctrine of the incarnation and rejected the Christian conception of matter as a vehicle of grace. They rejected Baptism, the Eucharist, and the whole organization of the Orthodox Church " (and Catholic Church too).

When Turks conquered Balkans Bogomils (and members of others East sects) massive converted to Islam. In many things Islam was a more attractive to them than Orthodox or Catholic Christianity.

Today's Muslim Bosniacs are mostly descendants of South Slavic Bogomils (and other Oriental sects). Much less Muslim Bosniacs are descendants of Serbs and Croats who converted to Islam.

For Albanians situation is completely different. Today's Muslim Albanians are descendants of Christian Albanians (Catholic and Orthodox Christians) who converted to Islam.

It is much more understandable for Bogomils and other Oriental sectarians that converted to Islam than for Christians - Catholic and Orthodox Albanians. The Catholic Church does not remember that anywhere in the world some Catholic nation for short time converted to another religion. In that case converting Catholic Albanians to Islam is unique in the history of Catholic Church.

Pope could not act militarily because there were strong forces of Ottoman empire in Albania and Balkans. Soon after the accession of Islam new Muslim Albanians became the spearhead of the Ottoman empire. If Albanians didn't accept Islam (and Bogomils but it is different case) Ottoman Empire in Europe would be kept much shorter.

Key question is why Albanians who were Catholic and Orthodox Christians (more Catholics) quickly and massively embraced Islam. The real reasons can lie deep within Albanian being (culture, values, believes, assumptions, genetics, origin, folk tradition etc.).

 

[Zemra]

Muslim inhabitants of the towns in Ottoman empire (today's Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece etc.) were Turks, Caucasian Muslims, Arabs etc.

(snip some parts)
Key question is why Albanians who were Catholic and Orthodox Christians (more Catholics) quickly and massively embraced Islam. The real reasons can lie deep within Albanian being (culture, values, believes, assumptions, genetics, origin, folk tradition etc.).

First of all lol at that sentence. It's well documented that Balkan countries forced Muslim converts to declare another nationality like Turks, Caucasian Muslims, Arabs etc. Example the Macedonian Muslims, forced to call themselves Turks. The "Turkish" population increased 2x in 5 years (1948-1953), made up from 8 to 16% of the general population, while the Slavo-Macedonian population fell sharply. They were never Turkish, they were...Bulgarians actaully which later came to take an Ancient Hellenic identity and later a Turkish one. But that's a mess between Greece and Macedonia, I'll leave this to them.

I gave you 3 answers.
First was the population decline, lots of villages became abandoned, by forceful movements which brought large economic problems; the solution was convertion --Albanian principalities weren't comparable to the West, but still were good in a standing economically. Albania was good before the Ottoman conquest, but poor after due the the large depopulation. They were only attacking Christians so...

Second was the assimilation of the large Christian population; gave the illusion the majority of the population mass converted--in reality a large number was also assimilated into Yugoslav and Greek populations. Which was also another reason for this conversion; protecting the whatever little national identity there was.

What do you think happened to these people here:
1)http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Balkans-ethnic_(1861).jpg
2)http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Ethnic_map_of_Balkans_-_russian_1867.jpg


Third was the different approach, more tolerant--different from Greece and Yugoslav countries who wanted to appear as if never had a significant Muslim population, because they expelled and exchanged populations, conducted genocide too. And also a large Albanian Christian population mentioned before was included in their ranks to increase the number of Christian population. Even today Muslims in the Balkans ar forced to declare a different nationality from the rest of the population. Albanians were and still are extremly tolerant to religious practices, just to answer the part about culture, values, believes, folk tradition assumptions you wanted. Genetics? Not my field but I've read Neolithic, although no general conclusions is reached.

Origin? Somewhere between Balto-Slavs, Germanic speakers, not much contacts with the Slavs before the migration, but lots with Baltic, makes sense since Baltic was more widespread at that time. No contants at all with Armenian so eliminate Caucasus and Anatolia from any possiblitiy. Later contacts with Greek likely because both Albanians moved more in south and Greeks more in north, some contacts with Celtic but not Italic until the Roman Empire. So basically the origin is Balkans but extending a lot more in North than now. Part of the Roman Empire before the inclusion of Dacia and Thrace due to distinctively different pronounciations of Latin loans, so somewhere in the west Balkans. Not coastal areas though. Lots of contacts with Romanians as well so extedned somewhat to the east as well. In the south the Jirecek line is used as a limit border. It's a big area still, but it's a start.

That was not a joke. Albanians were never discriminated in Serbia. I won't go into other matters since this is thread about Kosovo and you're probably Albanian, so lets stick to that one.

1. I need an explanation how could one minority, that was allegedly treated as Kosovo Albanians claim they were, managed to rise from 500.000 to 1.500.000?

2. Find me a region in which population rose 3x in a 40 years period?


View attachment 6018

http://books.google.com/books?id=aE...&q=changing albanian names to serbian&f=false

People personal stories, eg stories of little girls having their baby brother stuck in the muzzles of Serbian soldiers as a trophy tend to circulate. Although this was told to me first hand, it's a common type of story you hear among Kosovo Albanians. They still circulate. People felt threatened.

b) Baby booming it's pretty common in post-war eras. A multitude of reasons is possible but comfort is not one. Japanese economy is the third highest in the world, people live a pretty comfortable life, and their population is declining at alarming rates. This link in the end analyses some of the reasons but it's mostly in the US although I can tell you this is valid for Kosovo because I've talked to people "Some historians have argued that it was a part of a desire for normalcy after 16 years of depression and war." http://www.history.com/topics/baby-boomers

3. They'd use Turkish. Like they did in Anatolia.

Albania has written texts in many different scripts: latin, cyrillic, greek, arabic and at least 7 original scripts (still continue to be discovered). Each region had its own and it made it really difficult to understand each other and store documents and couldn't agree what to use. In the end they chose Latin.

Todhri script

Vithkuqi

7 original scripts, and the use of Turkish in diplomatic texts is what stands out most? 7 original scripts...http://www.elsie.de/pdf/articles/A1995ElbasanMs_Fig.pdf

 

[Marko94]

For Albanians situation is completely different. Today's Muslim Albanians are descendants of Christian Albanians (Catholic and Orthodox Christians) who converted to Islam.

It is much more understandable for Bogomils and other Oriental sectarians that converted to Islam than for Christians - Catholic and Orthodox Albanians. The Catholic Church does not remember that anywhere in the world some Catholic nation for short time converted to another religion. In that case converting Catholic Albanians to Islam is unique in the history of Catholic Church.

Pope could not act militarily because there were strong forces of Ottoman empire in Albania and Balkans. Soon after the accession of Islam new Muslim Albanians became the spearhead of the Ottoman empire. If Albanians didn't accept Islam (and Bogomils but it is different case) Ottoman Empire in Europe would be kept much shorter.

Key question is why Albanians who were Catholic and Orthodox Christians (more Catholics) quickly and massively embraced Islam. The real reasons can lie deep within Albanian being (culture, values, believes, assumptions, genetics, origin, folk tradition etc.).

Are you kidding me?
Mhhhh.....i think yes.
Pope clement XI.
The pope in 1700 was able to build "churches and schools", but then they were closed much later by the Turks.

"Giovanni Francesco Albani aveva quindi questa lontana ascendenza albanese, come lui stesso soleva sostenere apertamente. Del resto, si interessò molto dell'Albania, occupata ormai dai turchi, soprattutto per la salvaguardia della lingua albanese e della religione cattolica, promuovendo molte iniziative e favorendo la stampa di molti libri in lingua albanese. Sotto il suo auspicio si tenne, nel 1700 a Merçine di Alessio (Lezhe) in Albania, il convegno storico di Arber dove furono prese diverse risoluzioni in favore della lingua albanese e della religione cattolica, per non permettere la loro estinzione sotto la dominazione ottomana."

Source: WIkipedia.
And if for "shot time" you think are "500 years", yea , all right, very short.


The Albanians were forced to convert because the fees for Catholics was much higher.
As I said, the Catholics were loyal to the Vatican, so if you set off major revolts by Christian could declare war on the Vatican and make another crusade.


I don't understand your key question.

 

[Garrick]

I don't understand your key question.

You don't understand, you are Christian and probably your family has had left Albania long ago.

Once Gegs mostly were Catholics, Tosks mostly were Orthodoxians.

Serbs, Greeks and Tosk and Geg Albanians had good relationships, linked families, each other into marriage, etc.

But with Turks everything was changed.

Albanians for a time resisted islamization but then in relatively short period they mostly converted to Islam (both Catholics and Orthodoxians).

After that Muslim Albanians became spearhead of the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans and together with another Muslims, Turks, Arabs, Muslim peoples of Caucasus etc. they threatened Christian Balkans nations including Christian Albanians.

Muslim rule and Sharia Law can be reason why some Orthodox Albanians became Greeks (and maybe Serbs), and Catholic Albanians fled to Italy and elsewhere, who was nonMuslim had not easy life under Sharia Law.

Kopanski in Islamic studies wrote:

For a number of reasons the Islamization of Albanians in the Middle Ages is still one of the least known events in the history of the Muslims.

I wanted to fathom the reasons why Albanians massively converted to Islam unlike the Greeks, Serbs, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Croats etc.

For the answer I spoke with many peoples and of course Albanians (in Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro) between them, but the answer is not easy to come. Maybe in words one Greek man I founded answer that seems to be true.

 

[Idun]

When EU breaks up the Serbs will get it back.

 

[Garrick]

Origin?

You can see results, for example for Geg Albanians of Kosovo (Peric et al):

E haplogroup 45.6% (E-V13 43.85%) This haplogroup originates from Egypt.

J2 haplogroup 16.70% This haplogroup appeared in the Middle East

R1b, 21.10% mainly R1b-ht35 This is Anatolian/Armenian haplotype

R1a 4.42%, I1a 5.31% etc.

Results say that origin of Geg Albanians mostly is Egypt, Middle East, Anatolia and Caucasus.

 

[Ike]

I'm kinda confused what are you trying to imply here:
a) Albanians would be left in peace by other nations
b) Albanians start religious wars

No, it's a different thing, has to do with something I was talking to Marko94.

Originally Posted by Fior Jomina,
28 December 1470 In conclusion, I can say that in the period in question, this country was turned into a wasteland. It has remained as such up to the present day. Gone are not only the settlements, but also the people, with the exception of those few villages that have been rebuilt. It would thus be necessary for prisoners who have been convicted or banned to be pardoned and sent to this country to repopulate it.

But that would mean that today's population of Albania has very little in common with medieval population of Albania, and absolutely no continuity with Illyrians, Dardanians, Pelasginas, etc...

I think you don't understand.
In that time, if pope wanted to make crusades who tell according to you? Serb?Chinese? Indian? No, of course the Albanians because they was catholic.
The Turks at that time were afraid of another crusade.
At that time, the Turks were afraid of who was "Catholic" (albanian, bosnian or serb) Because he was faithful to the pope.

Where did you get that Albanians were Catholic ?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Europe_mediterranean_1190.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...0px-Great_Schism_1054_with_former_borders.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Albania

People personal stories, eg stories of little girls having their baby brother stuck in the muzzles of Serbian soldiers as a trophy tend to circulate. Although this was told to me first hand, it's a common type of story you hear among Kosovo Albanians. They still circulate. People felt threatened.


b) Baby booming it's pretty common in post-war eras. A multitude of reasons is possible but comfort is not one. Japanese economy is the third highest in the world, people live a pretty comfortable life, and their population is declining at alarming rates. This link in the end analyses some of the reasons but it's mostly in the US although I can tell you this is valid for Kosovo because I've talked to people "Some historians have argued that it was a part of a desire for normalcy after 16 years of depression and war." http://www.history.com/topics/baby-boomers

1. The only people who were threatened in Kosovo, were non-Albanians. Criminal statistics, huge Albanian population growth and non-Albanian population reduction as a result of Albanians terror and atrocities are the proof. As for the unemployment, go see federal economic statistics and what amount of money did end up for the development of "poor and backward" regions like Kosovo, Montenegro and Macedonia were. Why did Slovenia and Croatia make mess in the Parliament - because they were top contributors, and why did Albanians didn't want to participate in any almost any of Yugoslavian business from the beginning. They wanted Kosovo for them since since 1945, and they pushed for it with all means possible as soon as NATO promised the support.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/al-qaeda-and-the-war-on-terrorism

“Bin Laden had visited Albania himself. He was one of several fundamentalist groups that had sent units to fight in Kosovo, … Bin Laden is believed to have established an operation in Albania in 1994 … Albanian sources say Sali Berisha, who was then president, had links with some groups that later proved to be extreme fundamentalists.”


2. Yeah, so do Mexicans in California have no social security, have to speak English instead of their native language, don't go to college (because they don't want to learn English well), consequently have no prospective for a good job so they have 1/2 average salary compared to whites" but they still spawned in 3x numbers just like Albanians did in Yugoslavia. Following example of Kosovo, one day they should ask for California independence, just when they reach +50 %.

 

[Garrick]

When EU breaks up the Serbs will get it back.

I appreciate EU.

Yes, it can be seen that Serbia will regain Kosovo, it is inevitable.

I don't understand the need of Kosovo Albanians (Gegs) to speak untruth regarding the Serbian (and Yugoslav) investments.

Never in the history (under the Turkey and now in fluid status) Kosovo had no such investments as it did as the Serbian province. Almost all industrial capacities in this Serbian province financed by the Serbia (and partly Yugoslav federation). As Serbian province Kosovo had incredibly rapid development, of the remaining Turkish wrecks Kosovo became modern region with factories, universities, new urban neighborhoods and so on. The best proof is that Serbian province of Kosovo seventies was much more developed than Albania. Albanians from Albania were fleeing from poverty and settled in Serbia. No discrimination existed, I talked with lot of Albanians in SR Serbia and nobody was complaining that he was denied something. The same situation was in SR Montenegro. Maybe only Albanians in SR Macedonia were able to state the reasons for something they feel deprived.

Now is another situation. Albania has surpassed Kosovo. Most capacities in AP Kosovo contributed GDP growth now stands and falls dust. Emigration today from Kosovo is huge because of economic problems. Only Moldova in Europe worse than Kosovo. Albania seeks to take advantage of the situation and annex Kosovo but it can not pass. Kosovo's economy has been artificially separated from Serbia and inhabitants of Kosovo suffer damage. Once the Kosovo's economy again ties in Serbian and Serbian funds for AP Kosovo are activated, situation will go better.

 

[Marko94]

You don't understand, you are Christian and probably your family has had left Albania long ago.

Once Gegs mostly were Catholics, Tosks mostly were Orthodoxians.

Serbs, Greeks and Tosk and Geg Albanians had good relationships, linked families, each other into marriage, etc.

But with Turks everything was changed.

Albanians for a time resisted islamization but then in relatively short period they mostly converted to Islam (both Catholics and Orthodoxians).

After that Muslim Albanians became spearhead of the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans and together with another Muslims, Turks, Arabs, Muslim peoples of Caucasus etc. they threatened Christian Balkans nations including Christian Albanians.

Muslim rule and Sharia Law can be reason why some Orthodox Albanians became Greeks (and maybe Serbs), and Catholic Albanians fled to Italy and elsewhere, who was nonMuslim had not easy life under Sharia Law.

Kopanski in Islamic studies wrote:

For a number of reasons the Islamization of Albanians in the Middle Ages is still one of the least known events in the history of the Muslims.

I wanted to fathom the reasons why Albanians massively converted to Islam unlike the Greeks, Serbs, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Croats etc.

For the answer I spoke with many peoples and of course Albanians (in Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro) between them, but the answer is not easy to come. Maybe in words one Greek man I founded answer that seems to be true.

If at the time of the Ottoman Empire were Christians and taxes on taxes for Catholics was much higher than the Orthodox it is normal that this is the cause.
Remember that Albania was at that time a Catholic majority and therefore this was the cause.
it is useless to invent nonsense.
And then there are also Bosnjaki, they too are predominantly Muslim, why do not you wonder why they, too, are majority Muslims? Why Albanians are predominantly Muslim and bosnjaki?
The Albania is a country targeted as if they were "Slavs" or "other" surely there would be problems that we have today.
There are a lot of questions and no answers, the only option will be war in the future (not so far).
Knowing that the Albanian government and the Serbs governament are very stubborn will eventually collide and start a war.
War? The war can be triggered at any time (see what's going on in asia).

P.S My father have origin from Kosovo, after kick from Kosovo they go in Albania (mirdito), the family of my father is catholic.

 

[Marko94]

Where did you get that Albanians were Catholic ?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Europe_mediterranean_1190.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...0px-Great_Schism_1054_with_former_borders.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Albania

"Nel 1271 il sovrano angioino attraversò l'Adriatico e, in febbraio, occupò Durazzo. Nel febbraio del 1272, dopo avere conquistato una vasta zona dell'interno, si autoproclamò re d'Albania; peraltro, mentre stava organizzando una spedizione contro Costantinopoli, l'arrivo a Roma e l'incoronazione del nuovo papa, Gregorio X^[38], bloccò i piani di Carlo, perché l'imperatore di Bisanzio, Michele VIII Paleologo, promise al papa la riunificazione di tutti i cristiani, riconoscendo la supremazia del pontefice^[39]; inoltre, dopo questo impegno, l'imperatore prese iniziative militari in Albania ed in Acaia contro Carlo, che, a sua volta, continuò a fare alleanze con Serbi e Bulgari, con l'obiettivo di conquistare Costantinopoli."
Source: Carlo I angiò.

Translate in english.
""In 1271 the Angevin king crossed the Adriatic, and in February, occupied Durazzo. In February 1272, after having conquered a vast area of the interior, proclaimed himself king of Albania, however, while he was organizing an expedition against Constantinople, the arrival in Rome and the coronation of the new pope, Gregory X [38], blocked the plans of Charles, because the Byzantine Emperor, Michael VIII Palaeologus, the pope promised the reunification of all Christians, recognizing the supremacy of the Pope [39], in addition, after this commitment, the emperor took military action in Albania and in Achaia against Charles, who, in turn, continued to make alliances with the Serbs and Bulgarians, with the aim of conquering Constantinople."

In internet is write "Probably Albanians and few Slavs were the only Catholics."

 

[Marko94]

I appreciate EU.

Yes, it can be seen that Serbia will regain Kosovo, it is inevitable.

I don't understand the need of Kosovo Albanians (Gegs) to speak untruth regarding the Serbian (and Yugoslav) investments.

Who was to say "albania have Illyrian roots"?
Who was to say "fyrom have ancient macedonian root"?
Communism and nationalism made "south slavs" sick.
You Slavs contradicting because you say two different things.
1) We are Slavs.
2) We are Illyrian.
False statements by Albanian ....... yes yes.

Never in the history (under the Turkey and now in fluid status) Kosovo had no such investments as it did as the Serbian province. Almost all industrial capacities in this Serbian province financed by the Serbia (and partly Yugoslav federation). As Serbian province Kosovo had incredibly rapid development, of the remaining Turkish wrecks Kosovo became modern region with factories, universities, new urban neighborhoods and so on. The best proof is that Serbian province of Kosovo seventies was much more developed than Albania. Albanians from Albania were fleeing from poverty and settled in Serbia. No discrimination existed, I talked with lot of Albanians in SR Serbia and nobody was complaining that he was denied something. The same situation was in SR Montenegro. Maybe only Albanians in SR Macedonia were able to state the reasons for something they feel deprived.

Try to make arrangements.
Many Serbs say "The Kosovo was the poorest region of serbia" now "The Kosovo has had a lot of funding."
Decide, if you say that Kosovo has had so many loans then Kosovo was not poor.
Plis, get along.
Your country is poor.
Do you understand the term "poor" ... your country is to be compared with the Somalia and many other countries of the second \ third world.
If we were not there (in the last six years) that we invested in serbia (because the cost of worker is very low), you surely you had a fall in the GDP.
Remember this, in Serbia there are more than 1,000 Italian companies, these 1,000 were before in Italy and then they closed.
So stop saying nonsense.
Your country is will (long time) "poor."
Your country without us (Italian industries) surely you'd emigrated to Italy.
Serbia don't have nothing to give to albanian.....you understand now?
Read this : http://osservatorioitaliano.org/read/116752/albania-aperta-la-prima-scuola-serba-a-fier
Just a querstion: "Why this serb are in Albania?".

Now is another situation. Albania has surpassed Kosovo. Most capacities in AP Kosovo contributed GDP growth now stands and falls dust. Emigration today from Kosovo is huge because of economic problems. Only Moldova in Europe worse than Kosovo. Albania seeks to take advantage of the situation and annex Kosovo but it can not pass. Kosovo's economy has been artificially separated from Serbia and inhabitants of Kosovo suffer damage. Once the Kosovo's economy again ties in Serbian and Serbian funds for AP Kosovo are activated, situation will go better.

Mhhh....read this plis: http://osservatorioitaliano.org/rea...a-supporta-il-kosovo-nella-sua-agenda-europea
I just say to you: "Italy,france,fermany,belgium and uk support Kosovo".
I think you don't know, but when one of this country decided one thing, if is good or bad they do.
When the industry italian be the majority in Serbia, the Serbia be a colony of Italy.

 

[Marko94]

Edit.
I'm srry.

 

[Garrick]

If at the time of the Ottoman Empire were Christians and taxes on taxes for Catholics was much higher than the Orthodox it is normal that this is the cause.
Remember that Albania was at that time a Catholic majority and therefore this was the cause.
it is useless to invent nonsense.
And then there are also Bosnjaki, they too are predominantly Muslim, why do not you wonder why they, too, are majority Muslims? Why Albanians are predominantly Muslim and bosnjaki?
The Albania is a country targeted as if they were "Slavs" or "other" surely there would be problems that we have today.
There are a lot of questions and no answers, the only option will be war in the future (not so far).
Knowing that the Albanian government and the Serbs governament are very stubborn will eventually collide and start a war.
War? The war can be triggered at any time (see what's going on in asia).

P.S My father have origin from Kosovo, after kick from Kosovo they go in Albania (mirdito), the family of my father is catholic.

You coming to my words.

Geg Albanians were Catholics and they massively converted to Islam (in short time).

No Catholic nation in the world converted to Islam, especially to such extent as Geg Albanians.

Try to find a similar example anywhere in the world, you will not find.

In much worse situation were Catholics in North Africa, Middle East, Philippines, South-East Asia, Indian subcontinent etc. but they kept their Catholic faith even at the stage of life.

In Balkans, Hungarians and Croats were under Turkish rule and Sharia Low but they very little changed Catholic faith for Islam.

Catholic people all over the world in very difficult conditions remained the Catholics, but Geg Albanians in much better situation, very close, practically at the gates of the Vatican, massively converted to Islam for only one-two generations (and became the flagships of Muslim invaders), this is unique phenomenon in Catholic religion history, and it certainly must be a reason.

 

[Zemra]

No, it's a different thing, has to do with something I was talking to Marko94.
But that would mean that today's population of Albania has very little in common with medieval population of Albania, and absolutely no continuity with Illyrians, Dardanians, Pelasginas, etc...

Albanians are not anti-Orthodox, Orthodox Albanians have absolutely no crashes with Muslims. There is religious tolerance among Albanians so it's not that. In other cases, like Bosnia it was religious.

A large number of Turkish people claim Albanian ancestry, full or partial. Too large actually, make sense if you think of a population movement like this. No Turkish settlements are known in modern Albanian territories even though they kept good documents. The closest was Nis. The soil was unusable (you did read that part didn't you?) and needs years to go back to its original state which might explain the lack of interest in settlement. Animals too were taken away, which is pretty damaging as well. But population did increase once ravaging stopped. So it absolutely doesn't stop the Paleo-Balkan relatioship, but it might explain why a certain haplogroup is more common here than here. It also simply means Turkey has a lot of Albanians.

Where did you get that Albanians were Catholic ?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Europe_mediterranean_1190.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...0px-Great_Schism_1054_with_former_borders.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Albania

Catholic and Orthodox, Catholicism was stronger in the Venetian areas.

1. The only people who were threatened in Kosovo, were non-Albanians. Criminal statistics, huge Albanian population growth and non-Albanian population reduction as a result of Albanians terror and atrocities are the proof. As for the unemployment, go see federal economic statistics and what amount of money did end up for the development of "poor and backward" regions like Kosovo, Montenegro and Macedonia were. Why did Slovenia and Croatia make mess in the Parliament - because they were top contributors, and why did Albanians didn't want to participate in any almost any of Yugoslavian business from the beginning. They wanted Kosovo for them since since 1945, and they pushed for it with all means possible as soon as NATO promised the support.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/al-qaeda-and-the-war-on-terrorism

“Bin Laden had visited Albania himself. He was one of several fundamentalist groups that had sent units to fight in Kosovo, … Bin Laden is believed to have established an operation in Albania in 1994 … Albanian sources say Sali Berisha, who was then president, had links with some groups that later proved to be extreme fundamentalists.”

So you're telling me these people who have seen their relatives mutilated with their own eyes are lying? Well, your answer is yes, despite everything so it's not worth aruguing.

Albania is the most pro-West country you'll ever find, to unhealthy levels if I might add. Every talk in the news is about how to aid the US, EU, NATO. Trust me, Sali Berisha is linked to everything during electoral times, kinda like Obama's birth certificate controversy. It's a publicity stunt by the other party more than it's truth. I swear if he was half the mastermind he's described...

2. Yeah, so do Mexicans in California have no social security, have to speak English instead of their native language, don't go to college (because they don't want to learn English well), consequently have no prospective for a good job so they have 1/2 average salary compared to whites" but they still spawned in 3x numbers just like Albanians did in Yugoslavia. Following example of Kosovo, one day they should ask for California independence, just when they reach +50 %.

You just compared two groups you know nothing about.

Albanians have no problem with learning other lnaguages, but preserving the mother tongue. The average Albanian is multilingual. Albanian is the first language of course, Russian is also widespread among older generation, English is growing especially among the youth population but for historical time the other languages spoken were and are Serbo-Croatian, Greek and Italian. US schools offer Spanish, French, German, Japanese, Madarin etc. It's actually a requirment for graduation to have at least a second language, for GenEd. Also, it's not hard to get a social security number, you can get it within the first day if you apply the first day. All you only need documents to prove your identity, your existence. No one is stoping Mexicans from speaking Spanish, or name things in Spanish (eg San Francisco, Los Angeles), some just don't want to learn English. Some do. But Albanians were stopped from speaking and using Albanian. I linked you the proof you chose to ignore it because you said (paraphrasing) "I refuse to accept Albanians as victims, I prefer my country's most definitely unbiased media to feed me information".

You're comparing people who have possibilities but don't want (MX) with people who don't have possibilities but want (AL).

Basically, between Serbian and Albanian Christians were not a significant disputes. And today Serbs marry Albanian women (from Albania) who are Christian (Catholic or Orthodox Christian). But no Muslim Albanian women, because Islam forbids Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim.

The problem of Serbs and Albanians overwhelmingly is religious, not national: Serbs are almost all Christians (mostly Orthodox and Protestants), Albanians are mostly Sunny Muslims. For example when the Turkish prime minister says “Turkey is Kosovo” and Albanians are supported him, in essence, he certainly has in his head new Balkan neo-Ottoman order, and refers to the religious brotherhood of Turks and Albanians, the brotherhood of faith.

According to the Qur'an all Muslims belong to one community Ummah. Muslims belong Ummah and have an obligation to each other even if do not know each other and live on the two ends of the world. Although, for example, an Albanian Muslim and a Christian Serb years good buddy, tomorrow to experience a Muslim Turk, whom the Albanian had never seen in his life, he has to stand on side of the Turk against fellow Serb, from which a lifetime mate. Simply by required a Muslim religious rules. Greeks, Serbs, Hungarians and other nations well acquainted Muslim rules and laws (Shari’ah) during the reign of Ottoman Empire.

Basically There are no problems between Albanians of any religion so why the problem should it be between Muslim Albanians and Serb Orthodox instead of Serbs and Albanians. If you think Christian Albanians sympathise with Serbs for being Christian you're wrong. It's national not religious.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steph...mple-for-the-rest-of-the-world_b_2199921.html
http://www.speroforum.com/a/GXPUBSPXYU24/73316-Albania-celebrates-100-years-of-religious-tolerance
http://www.academicus.edu.al/nr7/Academicus-MMXIII-7-013-018.pdf
http://www.unesco.org/new/en/venice...umentary_on_religious_coexistence_in_albania/
http://books.google.com/books?id=wM...nepage&q=albanian religious tolerance&f=false
http://shkoder.blogspot.com/2007/11/is-there-religious-harmony-in-shkoder.html
https://s3.amazonaws.com/caa-production/attachments/75/C_Pages30to33_Melady_-_Albania.pdf?1366918858
http://www.refworld.org/pdfid/50c05ac62.pdf
http://www.mcser.org/images/stories/2_journal/mjss_september_2012/nuredin ei.pdf
http://www.ncbuy.com/reference/country/backgrounds.html?code=al&sec=religiousfree
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2011/04/13/2003500647
etc.

You know about Islam more than Albanians which supposedly is an Islamic country. Living here all you said it's news to me. Of course, you're assuming a lot of Albanians society, like actually giving a damn about religion, or not being a secular; state is separaed from religion.

Albanians more willing to let go of past disputes and for a healthier relationship with Serbia, but Serbians don't seem to reciprocate that. I blame the media for everything.
http://www.bezbednost.org/BCSP-News/5153/Perceptions-of-Albania-in-Serbian-media-are.shtml

1. Albanians are mix of many HG's. There is a lot of R1a, R1b, I and J, especially on the Albanian plains. Those territories have been inhabited by Phoenicians and Illyrians. A lot of tribes passed through there, Thracian, Celtic, Doric, Macedonian... During medieval times House of Anjou held territories of Albania, which was a gathering point for crusaders coming from Sardinia, Corsica, Naples or through Italy. High percentage of E-V13 among Albanian speakers is pure coincidence, and it is ridiculous to call E-V13 an Albanian marker. FWIW, there is still no evidence that E-V13 has been on Balkans before Turks.

2. Civilians ? Indeed nice civilians I guess every European country would like civilians like this to cross their borders?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cczXklpCo4

I honestly can't even think of linguistic influence of the Anjou. Venetians were different though.

E-V13 is basically absent outside Europe except for places conquered by Ancient Greeks so it certanly was here before Turks. The Turks are high on East Asian influence absent in Albanians. R1b is Western European. R1a is Eastern European. I is European. J sublcades in Albanians case are locked in Europe http://thegeneticatlas.com/J2b.png .

Albanian are Indo-Europeans so no relations with Turkic speakers. Or Caucasian speakers. Or some sort of relationship with Armenian even loanwords from Armenian or vice-versa, but nothing because these groups of people never contaced each other. On the other hand Albanian shows a strong relationship with Northern Indo-European languages (eg the significantly large woodstock vocabulary shares with Germanic langauges), yet it was definitely part of the Roman Empire since 2nd century BC at least (preserves Latin traits of this time period).

Can you have a decent conversation without denying your faults? Instead of just poitning fingers to others to blame? This is why the realtionship between the two groups of people can't improve; whenever one is willing despite differences, the others just dehumanzies the other to prove itself better. I can simply post pictures of Srebenica and do the same to you.

When it comes to Albanians, not the ones in the internet, the ones in real life, there's something that holds true no matter what your media says. The first, Kosovo Albanians unanimously felt opressed during Serbian rule. Felt is the keyword, so it's not worth posting what Croatia did to Yugoslavia. Second, they are divided on the relationships between the people. Some truly do want the other to dissappear. But majority of people are willing to start good relationship with Serbs despite everything, they just want their life to normalize, about 3/5 people in Kosovo (keep in mind they experienced more damage), 4/5 in Albania want peace with Serbians. However the amount of Serbians who want the same with Albanians is unproportionaly low. About 1/25 to 1/30 from my experience. It's a lot easier with Serbs born in immigration to be honest. Same with Albanians I would say, but it's such a big increase among Serbs it's worth noting.

 

[Ike]

"Nel 1271 il sovrano angioino attraversò l'Adriatico e, in febbraio, occupò Durazzo. Nel febbraio del 1272, dopo avere conquistato una vasta zona dell'interno, si autoproclamò re d'Albania; peraltro, mentre stava organizzando una spedizione contro Costantinopoli, l'arrivo a Roma e l'incoronazione del nuovo papa, Gregorio X^[38], bloccò i piani di Carlo, perché l'imperatore di Bisanzio, Michele VIII Paleologo, promise al papa la riunificazione di tutti i cristiani, riconoscendo la supremazia del pontefice^[39]; inoltre, dopo questo impegno, l'imperatore prese iniziative militari in Albania ed in Acaia contro Carlo, che, a sua volta, continuò a fare alleanze con Serbi e Bulgari, con l'obiettivo di conquistare Costantinopoli."
Source: Carlo I angiò.

Translate in english.
""In 1271 the Angevin king crossed the Adriatic, and in February, occupied Durazzo. In February 1272, after having conquered a vast area of the interior, proclaimed himself king of Albania, however, while he was organizing an expedition against Constantinople, the arrival in Rome and the coronation of the new pope, Gregory X [38], blocked the plans of Charles, because the Byzantine Emperor, Michael VIII Palaeologus, the pope promised the reunification of all Christians, recognizing the supremacy of the Pope [39], in addition, after this commitment, the emperor took military action in Albania and in Achaia against Charles, who, in turn, continued to make alliances with the Serbs and Bulgarians, with the aim of conquering Constantinople."

In internet is write "Probably Albanians and few Slavs were the only Catholics."

This says nothing about population of todays Albania being catholic.

Who was to say "fyrom have ancient macedonian root"?
Communism and nationalism made "south slavs" sick.
You Slavs contradicting because you say two different things.
1) We are Slavs.
2) We are Illyrian.
False statements by Albanian ....... yes yes.

Where have you heard that? It is stupid. Nowhere is Yugoslavia was anyone making serious statements of those kind (in the books, on TV or newspapers).
On the other hand Albanians do make them. They make them too often, and they talk like there is no shadow of a doubt, while in fact it's just a wild theory.

Try to make arrangements.
Many Serbs say "The Kosovo was the poorest region of serbia" now "The Kosovo has had a lot of funding."
Decide, if you say that Kosovo has had so many loans then Kosovo was not poor.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Don't try to play smart. It's a classical false dilemma that you're trying to sell here.

Serbia don't have nothing to give to albanian.....you understand now?

We're not talking abuot this moment, but about 1945-1990. Of course the situation changed once the war started.

Read this : http://osservatorioitaliano.org/read/116752/albania-aperta-la-prima-scuola-serba-a-fier
Just a querstion: "Why this serb are in Albania?".

It says they are opening school for 100 Bosnian children, in a city long way from Kosovo.
It's a good thing - Albanian and Serbia showing that they can work together for mutual good.

Mhhh....read this plis: http://osservatorioitaliano.org/rea...a-supporta-il-kosovo-nella-sua-agenda-europea
I just say to you: "Italy,france,fermany,belgium and uk support Kosovo".
I think you don't know, but when one of this country decided one thing, if is good or bad they do.

So had Hitler decided to give Kosovo to Albania, and it ended bad...

When the industry italian be the majority in Serbia, the Serbia be a colony of Italy.

:facepalm: This is pure mailcious statement aimed to degrade Serbia, and your opponents feelings (if he was Serbian) and it has nothing to do with conversation...

 

[Ino]

It's such a shame!

It's a great shame that great minds and talented people are wasted quibbling about stuff that is not important. Instead of finding ways to work together and find solutions to our social & economical problems, we quibble about things that don't mean anything.


Guys, we are all the same, we argue and keep moaning and complaining about each other and the state at which we are in. We blame our current situations on each other instead of just taking a long hard look in the mirror. In fact, why don't we all do that, because the person starring back at you is the person you should try to convince and fix first, before you do anything else. So, stop moaning and whining because we are all WRONG and get the bloody hell on with your own god forsaken life already.

I wonder when the big bang/creation happened, how many flags, languages and historical differences were there?

 

[Marko94]

You coming to my words.

Geg Albanians were Catholics and they massively converted to Islam (in short time).

No Catholic nation in the world converted to Islam, especially to such extent as Geg Albanians.

Try to find a similar example anywhere in the world, you will not find.

In much worse situation were Catholics in North Africa, Middle East, Philippines, South-East Asia, Indian subcontinent etc. but they kept their Catholic faith even at the stage of life.

In Balkans, Hungarians and Croats were under Turkish rule and Sharia Low but they very little changed Catholic faith for Islam.

Catholic people all over the world in very difficult conditions remained the Catholics, but Geg Albanians in much better situation, very close, practically at the gates of the Vatican, massively converted to Islam for only one-two generations (and became the flagships of Muslim invaders), this is unique phenomenon in Catholic religion history, and it certainly must be a reason.

According to internet geg are Kosovar and albanians of noth.
You said "Geg Albanians were Catholics and they massively converted to Islam (in short time)".
But if albanians of north are catholic how you said "Geg Albanians Catholics and they massively converted to Islam", you can say "geg Kosovar in massively converted to Islam (in short time)" (and for shot time you intended 500 years).
Not all country have the same past and not all country are similar, the change of religione,society or other is caused by fact of hystory.
The problem is discover this fact.
I find it useless for you to put the albania compared with countries that do not have nothing, absolutely nothing in common.
The Albania was the only country where most Catholics under the rule of a Muslim nation.
So, your comparisons are nosense.
You can find other country similar to serbia (bosnia,croatia and monentenegro) but you can't find country similar to albania,greece or romania.
Croatia was conquered in 1500 and in 1603 they stay under asburgic......yes, good comparison, albanian stay 500 years under ottoman (shot time for you) and croatia 100 years under ottoman.
Unfortunately, Albania did not have a past "defended" like yours.
The Slavic countries had great support from the Russian empire, but albania and greece no.
If Albania had had "great" aid from the Vatican and the world powers surely there would be a low percentage of people converted.
However, they have been forced or have accepted their conversion to Islam is their problem.
We are not here to scold.

 

[Marko94]

This says nothing about population of todays Albania being catholic.

My old reply is reported for the past.
About albanians of today:


"La World Christian Encyclopedia nel 2001 valutava i fedeli di religione islamica al 38,8%, seguiti a poca distanza dal 35,4% ottenuto dalla somma delle varie confessioni cristiane^[39][40] Secondo quanto riportato dal sito di informazione Operation World, gestito dal gruppo evangelico WEC International^[41], sarebbero invece i cristiani ad essere maggioranza nel paese (41,48%, a maggioranza ortodossi), seguiti dai musulmani (38,79%, quasi interamente sunniti) e dagli atei (19,54%).
Il numero totale delle confessioni religiose registrate è di 245 (189 cristiane e 56 islamiche od orientali). La mappa religiosa ha mantenuto nel tempo la distribuzione storica. I cattolici si trovano principalmente nell'Albania del Nord, i musulmani hanno una zona più ampia con forte presenza nelle zone centrali e rurali, mentre gli ortodossi (Albanesi e Greci), appaiono nelle zone meridionali del Paese.
La migrazione interna intanto ha fatto in modo che si creassero molte zone dove la popolazione si divide in più comunità religiose. In Albania sono presenti anche 4791testimoni di Geova.^[42]
Per quanto riguarda le comunità cristiane, il problema principale è la mancanza di sacerdoti e di suore di nazionalità albanese nei diversi ordini religiosi. Un problema di natura giuridica è invece la restituzione delle proprietà immobiliari degli ordini religiosi in Albania, confiscate dai governi durante il regime comunista. Tuttavia, in un accordo con la Santa Sede del 2002, il governo albanese si è impegnato a ripristinare le proprietà della Chiesa cattolica (Articolo 9)^[43].

Source: Wikipedia.

Where have you heard that? It is stupid. Nowhere is Yugoslavia was anyone making serious statements of those kind (in the books, on TV or newspapers).
On the other hand Albanians do make them. They make them too often, and they talk like there is no shadow of a doubt, while in fact it's just a wild theory.

Tito don't said "fyrom have origin from ancient macedonian"?
You (not just you) in may post don't said croatian,serbian and other have origin illyrian?

The two are not mutually exclusive. Don't try to play smart. It's a classical false dilemma that you're trying to sell here.

What? I say to you a example.
North and center Italy is rich, ok? South Italy is poor, ok?
Now, why north and center is rich? Because in all hystory of Italy the governament have invested only in the north and center.
Why south is poor? Because just in this last 14 years have invested (and very. but very low).
If i invested in a place, this place becomes rich, if i not invested or i invested very low this place not becomes rich.
If the Kosovo is so important how be "poor" and not "rich"??? Because the jugoslavia and jugoslavia comunist not have invested.
Why you not acept the truth?
I don't play because don't is a game, but just a right post where all can say the opinion.

We're not talking abuot this moment, but about 1945-1990. Of course the situation changed once the war started.

In a time of comunist the albanian can't exit from albania.....the country was closed by comunism.
Comunism albania is like north korea, that is the korean can't escape from north korea.
And if can escape, they go in Italy.
In all hystory of albania, the emigrants albanian go in Italy,germany or another country "rich" (serbia don't is rich in that time and not now).

It says they are opening school for 100 Bosnian children, in a city long way from Kosovo.
It's a good thing - Albanian and Serbia showing that they can work together for mutual good.

Not just bosnian.

So had Hitler decided to give Kosovo to Albania, and it ended bad...

Think about that before it was given to Serbia ........

:facepalm: This is pure mailcious statement aimed to degrade Serbia, and your opponents feelings (if he was Serbian) and it has nothing to do with conversation...

No, i speak about economy of serbia.
The economy of Serbia is good, but if you keep it up you'll end up being a colony.Countries like Romania, Albania, Poland and others are already Italian colonies.
The problem of your country is "will be colony of Russia or Italy?"
It is normal that countries with a small economy will become colonies (I'm not saying it's good to be a colony).

 

[Ike]

My old reply is reported for the past. About albanians of today: ...

Zemra said it better. We still don't know the percentages, but it may be of no importance.

Tito don't said "fyrom have origin from ancient macedonian"?
You (not just you) in may post don't said croatian,serbian and other have origin illyrian?

Nobody ever mentioned Illyria or Illyrians in connection with Slavs during Tito's Yugoslavia. It was only said that Albanians may be in some connection with Illyrians, but nothing except that.

What? I say to you a example.
North and center Italy is rich, ok? South Italy is poor, ok?
Now, why north and center is rich? Because in all hystory of Italy the governament have invested only in the north and center.
Why south is poor? Because just in this last 14 years have invested (and very. but very low).
If i invested in a place, this place becomes rich, if i not invested or i invested very low this place not becomes rich.
If the Kosovo is so important how be "poor" and not "rich"??? Because the jugoslavia and jugoslavia comunist not have invested.
Why you not acept the truth?
I don't play because don't is a game, but just a right post where all can say the opinion.

Because you're making it look like one has to be either poor, or to be in debts. And it's absolutely not right.
One can get many loans, and be rich at that moment.

In a time of comunist the albanian can't exit from albania.....the country was closed by comunism.
Comunism albania is like north korea, that is the korean can't escape from north korea.
And if can escape, they go in Italy.
In all hystory of albania, the emigrants albanian go in Italy,germany or another country "rich" (serbia don't is rich in that time and not now).

So, in fact, they could? Give us numbers? Lets see how many Albanians did emigrate.

Think about that before it was given to Serbia ........

I don't know when Kosovo was given to Serbia, but it was probably very long ago, since everything old that exists in Kosovo carries Slavic marks and not Albanian.
Maybe Shqiptars were Slavic before they were given name Albanians, and before they were converted to Christianity? That would explain your theory.

No, i speak about economy of serbia.
The economy of Serbia is good, but if you keep it up you'll end up being a colony.Countries like Romania, Albania, Poland and others are already Italian colonies.
The problem of your country is "will be colony of Russia or Italy?"
It is normal that countries with a small economy will become colonies (I'm not saying it's good to be a colony).

All Balkan countries are 'colonies' right now. Neither one has independent government or economy.