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J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

These maps are proving extremely accurate.

17456609703_28ca86f715_c.jpg



They appeared in the web over 10 years ago, made by someone enthusiastic and well versed in archeology of the Balkans. Using the maps proposal, J2b-L283 starts off as a offshoot from the neighborhood of Mokrin. From there, they expand into Bosnia and Dalmatia colliding with Bell Beaker outpost/expansion and R-PF7563 (possibly the decedents of Vucedol) further south.
 
Some clarification:

The Cetina patrilineage is not restricted to just Z38240 subclades but also other major J2b-L283 subclades (Z615+, Z597+, Z638+, Z1297, Z1297+ etc. Sardinia YP91 connection to Kriz Brdovecki, North West Croatia, likely a earlier pre-TC-Urnfield Cetina substrate as well!) already attested. And no, this is not a "tiny coastal strip" in Dalmatia but an ETHNIC GROUP and culture which expanded at its peak from the North West to the majority of the East Adriatic coastal and inland territory and beyond migrations in the Western Adriatic, Central Mediterrenean, Balkan peninsula, other Mediterrenean outposts.

THERE IS inland Cetina and just because some subclades haven't been nearer to the coast in the EBA does not mean that:

a) basal ancestral subclades of J2b-L283 arriving from the Northern Balkans haven't

b) those lineages won't be found in inland Cetina which is, too, a big territory

Just by looking at the phylogeny of these further descendant subclades of Z1297 and generally Z638 and other J2b-L283 subclades:

c) should have at some point moved from a more inland Cetina area to the coast over the span of time, we have also early CE next to the dozens of Bronze Age samples that support this scenario even more.

d) Cetina is not restricted to the coast of the Eastern Adriatic region as that is a pseudoscientific statement devoid of fact

e) Z638(>Z1297) has already been found in EBA Cetina

LASTLY: The EBA Cetina matches the dispersal of major J2b-L283 Bronze Age subclades perfectly fine

mount123 said:
Looking at the phylogeny of the so far 88 aDNA J2b-L283 samples nothing but a North to South migration was ever possible. Neither does the autosomal DNA support anything but a North to South migration. And all of this was evident since we had our very first J2b-L283, a little boy ID I4331 buried in Veliki Vanik, Dalmatia, 1600 BCE. Underneath is a list of 78 aDNA samples from the Western Balkans, Italy, Mediterranean. I have added 3 low coverage J2b (they are more than highly likely L283), the 4 Mygdalia and the 2 Pannonian Cemeteries samples.

[TABLE="class: t1"]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]Sample (n=78)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Site[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Date [/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]YDNA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I18712[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_BA, D. Ostrvica-Pasičine, Croatia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]2500-800 BCE [/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID MOK15[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Maros EBA, Mokrin Necropolis, Serbia [/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]2100-1800 BCE[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I18746[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]2000-1600 BCE [/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I18747[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]2000-1600 BCE [/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I19029[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]2000-1600 BCE[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>Z600>?[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I11843[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]2000-1600 BCE [/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I19032[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]2000-1600 BCE [/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I19025[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]2000-1600 BCE [/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>?[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I18088[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]2000-1600 BCE [/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>?[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I19031[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]2000-1600 BCE [/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283?[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I19026[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_Cetina_BA, Cetina Valley, Croatia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]2000-1600 BCE [/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283?[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I18748

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_BA, Bogomolje, Croatia

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1900-1600 BCE (~1750 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I8471[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]ALB_Cetina_MBA, Shkrel Shkodër, Malësia e Madhe, Albania[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1880-1695 BCE (~1788 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I5080

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_BA, Zavojane-Ravca, Velika Gomila, Croatia



[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1743-1623 BCE (~1683 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I5073[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_BA, Koprivno, Croatia

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1732-1542 BCE (~1637 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I4331

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_EMBA, Veliki Vanik, Croatia



[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1631-1521 BCE (~1576 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID MYG001

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>Z615

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID MYG008

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>Z615

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID MYG006

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>Z615

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID MYG005

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>Z615

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I26726

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_MBA, Gudnja cave, Croatia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1507-1415 BCE (~1461 BCE)

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I24345

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_MBA_LBA_EIA, Velim-Kosa, Croatia

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1500-400 BCE (~950 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>?[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I5074

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_BA, Matkovici, Croatia [/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1497-1397 BCE (~1447 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I13777

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1450-1250 BCE (~1350 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I13775

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1450-1250 BCE (~1350 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I14499[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1450-1250 BCE (~1350 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2(b-L283?) 2nd or 3rd degree relative to I13777 and I13169 L283 samples)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I13169

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1407-1271 BCE (~1339 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I13778

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1386-1212 BCE (~1299 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I14498

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1300-1000 BCE (~1150 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID SAL001

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Daunian_IA, Salapia, Italy

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1260–1048 BCE (~1142 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283?[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID ORC003

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]~1250 BCE

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>YP157

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID ORC007

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]~1248 BCE[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>Z622>?

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I10553

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy



[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1226-1056 BCE (~1155 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>YP157

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I13167

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]MNE_LBA, Velika Gruda, Montenegro[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1216-1052 BCE (~1134 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID ORC008

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Nuragic Sardinia_LBA, Sardinia, Perdasdefogu, Italy[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]~1095 BCE [/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>?

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID NEO806

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Italy_BronzeAge, Grotta Delle Mura, Apulia , Italy



[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]~1063 BCE[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I23911

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]891-797 BCE (~844 BCE)

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I23995

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]810-675 BCE (~743 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I26742

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_EIA, Jazinka Cave, Croatia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]800-600 BCE (~700 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I24639

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]795-567 BCE (~681 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I24638

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_EIA, Smiljan, Croatia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]795-567 BCE (~681 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I5691

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Slovenia_EIA, Novo mesto, Kapiteljska njive, Slovenia

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]787-544 BCE (~666 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I24882

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_EIA, Mala Metaljka, Croatia



[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]774-549 BCE (~662 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID R474

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Iron Age/Roman Republic - Etruscan, Civitavecchia, Italy



[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]700-600 BCE (~650 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>CTS6190>Y45181

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I17633

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]ALB_Çinamak_IA, Çinamak, Kukës, Albania

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]700-400 BCE (~550 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>? [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I16253

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]ALB_Çinamak_IA, Çinamak, Kukës, Albania



[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]658-403 BCE (~531 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878>CTS11100>Y37121

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I16254

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]ALB_Çinamak_IA, Çinamak, Kukës, Albania

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]600-400 BCE (~500 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>?

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]

ID I22940

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Slovenia_EIA, Zagorje ob Savi, Slovenia

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]600-350 BCE (~475 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID R11751

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]CetinaExp_Iron Age, Kerkouane, Tunisia

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]~569 BCE

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID R11753

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]CetinaExp_Iron Age, Kerkouane, Tunisia

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]~531 BCE

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID CSN004

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Casenovole (Grosseto, Tuscany), Italy

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]530-200 BCE (~365 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>?

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I5723

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_IA, Sv. Križ Brdovečki, Croatia



[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]514-391 BCE (~453 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>Z622>YP91>YP153>FT185586

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID SAL010[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Daunian_IA, Salapia, Italy



[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]500 BCE[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283? [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I18831

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_IA, Velim-Kosa, Croatia

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]500-1 BCE (~250 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I18830

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]HRV_IA, Velim-Kosa, Croatia



[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]500-1 BCE (~250 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID ORD014[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Daunian_IA, Herdonia (modern Ordona), Italy

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]~489 BCE [/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>? [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I4998

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hungary_IA_LaTene, Vas county, Kápolnadomb, Gór, Hungary

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]391-208 BCE (~300 BCE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>BY161113>BY162321

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID R116

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Roman Era, Via Paisiello (Necropoli Salaria), Italy

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1 CE - 200 CE (~100 CE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID R9669

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Late Antiquity, Viminacium, Serbia



[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]129.5-310.5 CE (~220 CE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y21878>CTS11100>CTS8364(xBY37860)

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID R3481

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Late Antiquity, Doclea Bjelovine, Montenegro

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]211-320.5 CE (~266 CE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID R6693

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Late Antiquity, Sviloš-Kruševlje, Serbia



[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]236.0-331.5 CE (~284 CE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>Z600>Z585>?[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID R2040

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Late Antiquity, Sisak-Pogorelec, Croatia

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]245-402 CE (~323 CE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>FT103684>Y263344>FT108131

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I15546

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]380–410 CE (~395 CE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>?

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I15548[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]380–410 CE (~395 CE)


[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I15547

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Late Antiquity, Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis, Serbia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]380–410 CE (~395 CE)



[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>?

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID R3543

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Roman Era, Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia



[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]431-600.5 CE (~516 CE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>FT103684>FTA60432>FTA61140

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID R3544

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Roman Era, Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]549.5-600.5 CE (~575 CE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043>FGC55778>FT212328

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID Hacs_24[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Late Antiquity Pannonian Cemeteries, Hacs, Hungary[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]~475 CE [/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID Hacs_10[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Late Antiquity Pannonian Cemeteries, Hacs, Hungary[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"] 600-500 CE (~550 CE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>?[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID VEN006

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Early Medieval, Venosa (Potenza, Basilicata), Italy



[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]650-763 CE (~686 CE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507>?

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID ALT-77 / ERS9945038

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hungary_Avar_EarlyMiddle, Alattyán-Tulát, Hungary



[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]~648 CE

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y21878>Y32373>FT33245

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID VEN013

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Early Medieval, Venosa (Potenza, Basilicata), Italy

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]670-775 CE (~757 CE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>PH1602>Y86930

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID VPB-307 / ERS9945291

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hungary_Avar_Late_Elite, Vörs-Papkert B, Hungary



[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]~800 CE

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>Z622>YP91>YP61>YP29>YP181

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID SP-2 / ERS9945222

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Hungary_Conq_Elite, Sárrétudvari-Poroshalom, Hungary

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]~950 CE

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y27522>Y23097

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID R9918

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Early Medieval, Doclea Bjelovine, Montenegro

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]996.5-1150.5 CE (~1073 CE)[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>CTS6190>Y272857

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID R54

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Medieval, Villa Magna, Italy

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1280-1430 CE (~1355 CE)

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Y23094

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1"]ID I15707

[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]Albania_PostMdv, Bardhoc, Albania



[/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]1472-1632 CE (~1552 CE) [/TD]
[TD="class: td1"]J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Z631

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
mount123 said:
Some clarification:

The Cetina patrilineage is not restricted to just Z38240 subclades but also other major J2b-L283 subclades (Z615+, Z597+, Z1297, Z1297+ etc. Sardinia YP91 connection to Kriz Brdovecki, North West Croatia, likely a earlier pre-TC-Urnfield Cetina substrate as well!) already attested. And no, this is not a "tiny coastal strip" in Dalmatia but an ETHNIC GROUP and culture which expanded at its peak from the North West to the majority of the East Adriatic coastal and inland territory and beyond migrations in the Western Adriatic, Central Mediterrenean, Balkan peninsula, other Mediterrenean outposts.

THERE IS inland Cetina and just because some subclades haven't been nearer to the coast in the EBA does not mean that:

a) basal ancestral subclades of J2b-L283 arriving from the Northern Balkans haven't

b) those lineages won't be found in inland Cetina which is, too, a big territory

Just by looking at the phylogeny of these further descendant subclades of Z1297 and other J2b-L283 subclades:

c) should have at some point moved from a more inland Cetina area to the coast over the span of time, we have also early CE next to the dozens of Bronze Age samples that support this scenario even more.

d) Cetina is not restricted to the coast of the Eastern Adriatic region as that is a pseudoscientific statement devoid of fact

e) Z1297 has already been found in EBA Cetina

LASTLY: The EBA Cetina matches the dispersal of major J2b-L283 Bronze Age subclades perfectly fine
Click to expand...


do you have more than these samples on the map for the Western-Adriatic group in the iron age ?

 
Looks like two males from Shulaveri-Shomu Neolithic Culture from Southern Caucasus belong to J2b.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-023-04681-w

I would believe that if they are not L283 nearby related cultures will end up J2b2-L283.

Shulaveri-Shomu descended cultures like Leylatepe migrated more in Northern Caucasus and it's speculated they contributed in formation of Maykop. During Chalcolithic-Early Bronze Age, this could be potential relationship of J2b2-L283 appearing in Eastern Europe, wasn't there a rumour from Moldavia during Chalcolithic-EBA?
 
The samples from that paper belong to J-C4S10357 NOT J2b-L283 hence totally irrelevant to this thread. This was already clarified by Trojet. Short attention span is real, as most people don't seem to read the last 4 or 5 posts of the same page it seems.

Trojet said:
Assuming WGS Extract is correct, which I have no reason to doubt, J2b2b corresponds to J-Z2453: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2453/
This thread is about J2b-L283 and those samples belong to a different J2b branch which split ~14000 ybp.
Worth noting: We still have no J-L283 in the Caucasus region prior to the Bronze Age. At this point, considering the above and the rumoured Eneolithic sample from Moldova, it's likelier J-L283 was in Europe when it expanded and not the Caucasus.
Click to expand...

The Moldovan sample is a Chalcolithic sample and not from the EBA as by the EBA J2b-L283 was already successfully established in the WE Balkans, see: Early Bronze Age Cetina culture

The due to be published Moldovan J2b-L283 sample has only received an archeological dating, namely 4500-3500 BCE, perhaps it will receive a proper C14 dating retroactively before getting published. There are also some other potential Chalcolithic J2b-L283 samples from the NW Black Sea adjacent region but only additional sampling of that part of Eastern Europe will tell.

There are interesting upcoming studies I have seen from Eastern European archaeogenetic teams, hopefully the publication of these does not entail another 4+ years.
 
I wouldn't bother too much, samples are from Neolithic, if they dig deeper the adjacent regions to more north/west very likely J2b2-L283 will show up.

Cetina are Late EBA samples, the start of EBA to Cetina Late EBA samples, there is a 1000 year gap (timelines of EBA start might be disputed region by region though, in Aegean it is usually estimated to start in 3200 B.C while in inner Europe 2500-2300 B.C, Chalcolithic to EBA transition might differ region per region). If you are talking about Late Neolithic to Chalcolithic transition and from Chalcolithic to EBA transition, it still works out. It's a chronology.
 
Hi there, I am new to this Forum. My Y-DNA haplogroup is J2b2-L283, my father is from Krk ( Veglia ) island in Croatia.
I did my test with FTDNA and I also discovered that there is a man from Calabria with whom I share the same male ancestor app. 2.000 years ago.
 
AbeTheBabe said:
Hi there, I am new to this Forum. My Y-DNA haplogroup is J2b2-L283, my father is from Krk ( Veglia ) island in Croatia.
I did my test with FTDNA and I also discovered that there is a man from Calabria with whom I share the same male ancestor app. 2.000 years ago.
Click to expand...

Had a friend ( passed 2021 ) who had same marker as yourself...............origin of family from island of Cres ( in croatia )................his grandfather, grandmother and father where told to leave ( 1949) by Tito as they did not want to become slavs ................they are Italian in origin
 
Maciamo said:
Just look at the Greeks. You don't see North Greeks arguing or fighting with Cretans/Aegeans or vice versa because the former have Slavic and Germanic DNA that the latter lack
Click to expand...

Mr Maciamo I follow your posts and I really find them interesting. However, I inderstand that you are not aware of the recent Greek history. Of course there is plenty of slavic and Germanic DNA in North Greeks but the majority of them are of Asia minor origin due to population exchange of 1922. More than 60% of nowadays North Greeks are immigrants from the former Eastern Roman empire and these people have no relation, or perhaps minimal relation to balkans. They also have no mongoloid or arabic connection, at least culturally. They are strongly connected to Greek islanders, including Crete. Thus, there would be no chance North Greeks to ever have an arguing with Cretans as they appear close to them. As you are an expert on DNA's you coud make a research on this topic and I believe that you will be surprised by the results. Thank you.
 
Edit: incorrectly placed low coverage ukr sample already clarified by Trojet

Addendum: Trojet's anaylsis on BOY014 3000-2000 BCE LCA/EBA Boyanovo, Bulgaria from the paper: Early contact between late farming and pastoralist societies in southeastern Europe

Trojet said:
It's quite unfortunate this sample has such a low coverage as it does appear he is at least J2b-M102+. Considering only one positive read at J-M205 level combined with no coverage at J-Z1825>Z593>M241>L283 levels, I'm personally not convinced he is J-M205 with the data we currently have.
Click to expand...

If there is no sample mixup this is certainly huge news considering his auDNA (G25 coordinates):
Code: 
[COLOR=#000000]BOY014.merged,0.111547,0.101553,0.033187,0.08721,-0.018465,0.036535,0.004465,-0.000692,-0.045404,-0.054124,-0.000487,0.004046,-0.006392,-0.017616,0.035966,0.010872,-0.014733,-0.003547,-0.006662,0.007629,0.007362,0.000247,0.007641,0.01699,0.000958[/COLOR]
 
Last edited:
Hi, newbie here.

I'm Spanish and I'm J2b2-L283 too (J-Z631 haplotype). It is quite rare in my country, less than 1%. The haplotype I belong to passed through Italy, so I'm guessing a Roman Legionary of Illyrian ancestry that was sent to Spain a couple thousand years ago?

I have no recent foreign admixture (99.6% Iberian according to 23andMe), and I'm 56% EEF, 30% Steppe, 11% WHG and 3% Ibero-Maurussian according to the G25 calculators.

I'm new to all this, and honestly, it is fascinating. Very happy to share my haplogroup with the Balkanic people! Also, there's a typo in my user name because I'm dumb XD
 
Illyrian_by_surpirse said:
Hi, newbie here.

I'm Spanish and I'm J2b2-L283 too (J-Z631 haplotype). It is quite rare in my country, less than 1%. The haplotype I belong to passed through Italy, so I'm guessing a Roman Legionary of Illyrian ancestry that was sent to Spain a couple thousand years ago?

I have no recent foreign admixture (99.6% Iberian according to 23andMe), and I'm 56% EEF, 30% Steppe, 11% WHG and 3% Ibero-Maurussian according to the G25 calculators.

I'm new to all this, and honestly, it is fascinating. Very happy to share my haplogroup with the Balkanic people! Also, there's a typo in my user name because I'm dumb XD
Click to expand...

Really cool. Welcome to the club.
 
I guess we will not know for sure until further investigation and access to more samples. I'm very new to all this, and I've been reading a lot since I found I'm J2b2-L283 (and enjoying every little part of it).

Finding an older sample of J-L283 prior to 1700 BC, or finding those basal linages in ancient samples from the Balkans would solve a lot of questions.
 
Illyrian_by_surpirse said:
Hi, newbie here.

I'm Spanish and I'm J2b2-L283 too (J-Z631 haplotype). It is quite rare in my country, less than 1%. The haplotype I belong to passed through Italy, so I'm guessing a Roman Legionary of Illyrian ancestry that was sent to Spain a couple thousand years ago?

I have no recent foreign admixture (99.6% Iberian according to 23andMe), and I'm 56% EEF, 30% Steppe, 11% WHG and 3% Ibero-Maurussian according to the G25 calculators.

I'm new to all this, and honestly, it is fascinating. Very happy to share my haplogroup with the Balkanic people! Also, there's a typo in my user name because I'm dumb XD
Click to expand...

Could be other ways. Mercenaries who worked for carthagenians phonecians then landed in spain. Balkanites who got absorbed by later eastern suebians or other goth tribes and then migrated to west spain. Maybe absorbed by celts who later establish some french or celtic related kingdom, burgundians, etc. Then, french later on under the carolingian Empire into catalonia. And then maybe your ancestor moved around in spain.
Maybe when spain conquered sardinia and some parts of italy, your ancestor moved into spain. Maybe romans also. How long do you know your paternal ancestry to? Do you do geneology?
 
All that sounds very interesting, I guess I will never know for sure. I know my paternal linage back to the 17th century, in Galicia.
 
Illyrian_by_surpirse said:
All that sounds very interesting, I guess I will never know for sure. I know my paternal linage back to the 17th century, in Galicia.
Click to expand...
Thats still somewhat far. Hopefully, you will break your geneology brickwall and find more documentation. You probably know a bit already, considering you traced it to 18th century galicia, but pares have some resources for that if you don't for whatever reason.

Http pares(dot)mcu(dot)es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/find?nm=&texto=Galicia

Here is a keyword search of galicia. You can narrow it down to the location, probably through some of the advanced search options.

What part of galicia is your paternal ancestry from?
 
There is a nonzero chance that it arrived in Galicia with the Celts, being incorporated in the Balkans with some assimilated Illyrians.
But the classic Roman mediated movement is always an option.
 
Illyrian_by_surpirse said:
Hi, newbie here.

I'm Spanish and I'm J2b2-L283 too (J-Z631 haplotype). It is quite rare in my country, less than 1%. The haplotype I belong to passed through Italy, so I'm guessing a Roman Legionary of Illyrian ancestry that was sent to Spain a couple thousand years ago?

I have no recent foreign admixture (99.6% Iberian according to 23andMe), and I'm 56% EEF, 30% Steppe, 11% WHG and 3% Ibero-Maurussian according to the G25 calculators.

I'm new to all this, and honestly, it is fascinating. Very happy to share my haplogroup with the Balkanic people! Also, there's a typo in my user name because I'm dumb XD
Click to expand...

If J-Z631 is your current status, you need to put things into context: The TMRCA is in the Transitional Period, between about 1.100-800 BC, between the Bronze and Iron Age. Your genealogy starts in the 18th century means you have currently a gap of about 2.700 years! There are quite obviously so many possibilities for how your lineage could have ended up in Iberia, in the meantime, that they are nearly countless. Yet the most likely ones are obviously Iron Age Celtic migrations (Urnfield, Hallstatt, La Tene), Roman era movements (traders, slaves, soldiers etc.), migration period movements (Goths and Suebians etc.). Going for a BigY would be the first step, because its likely you end up more downstream with a NGS test, which will narrow things a bit down already, at least on the long term and with more testers and samples.
 
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