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J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

Among the hundreds of YDNA listed here, https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/v...8&ll=45.49395456132537,24.025325085150826&z=6 there are only 2 or 3 J in Europe from ancient times.

Today's situation places Albanians closest to the South and Central Greeks from the perspective of YDNA, with almost identical percentages of J or E.
[TABLE="class: sortable"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"]Region/Haplogroup[/TD]
[TH="class: I1"]I1
[/TH]
[TH="class: I2"]I2a[/TH]
[TH="class: I2b"]I2b[/TH]
[TH="class: R1a"]R1a
[/TH]
[TH="class: R1b"]R1b [/TH]
[TH="class: G2a"]G
[/TH]
[TH="class: J2 sorttable_sorted_reverse"]J2 ▴[/TH]
[TH="class: J1"]J1[/TH]
[TH="class: E1b"]E1b1b[/TH]
[TH="class: T"]T[/TH]
[TH="class: Q"]Q[/TH]
[TH="class: N1c1"]N[/TH]
[TD="class: samples"]Sample size[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: sortable"]
[TR="class: alt2"]
[TD="class: left"][/TD]
[TD="class: I1"][/TD]
[TD="class: I2"][/TD]
[TD="class: I2b"][/TD]
[TD="class: R1a"][/TD]
[TD="class: R1b"][/TD]
[TD="class: G2a"][/TD]
[TD="class: J2"][/TD]
[TD="class: J1"][/TD]
[TD="class: E1b"][/TD]
[TD="class: T"][/TD]
[TD="class: Q"][/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1"][/TD]
[TD="class: samples"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: alt2"]
[TD="class: left"]South Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: I1"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2"]9[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a"]10.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b"]20.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a"]3.5
[/TD]
[TD="class: J2"]19.5
[/TD]
[TD="class: J1"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b"]27
[/TD]
[TD="class: T"]4.5
[/TD]
[TD="class: Q"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: samples"]
rate05.gif
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: left, width: 130"]Albania[/TD]
[TD="class: I1"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: I2"]12[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a"]9[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b"]16[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2"]19.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J1"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b"]27.5[/TD]
[TD="class: T"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: Q"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: samples"]
rate07.gif
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: left, width: 130"]Central Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: I1"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2"]7[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a"]11[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b"]11.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a"]6[/TD]
[TD="class: J2"]19[/TD]
[TD="class: J1"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b"]29.5[/TD]
[TD="class: T"]5[/TD]
[TD="class: Q"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: samples"]
rate05.gif
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

These does not prove at all that J has been such a large component some 500 - 1000 or more years ago.

Probably J exploded very recently from south Balkans, and are now found all over Europe, even in Estonia, Sweden, Norway, Scotland or Latvia.
 
gidai said:
Among the hundreds of YDNA listed here, https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/v...8&ll=45.49395456132537,24.025325085150826&z=6 there are only 2 or 3 J in Europe from ancient times.

Today's situation places Albanians closest to the South and Central Greeks from the perspective of YDNA, with almost identical percentages of J or E.
[TABLE="class: sortable"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"]Region/Haplogroup[/TD]
[TH="class: I1"]I1
[/TH]
[TH="class: I2"]I2a[/TH]
[TH="class: I2b"]I2b[/TH]
[TH="class: R1a"]R1a
[/TH]
[TH="class: R1b"]R1b [/TH]
[TH="class: G2a"]G
[/TH]
[TH="class: J2 sorttable_sorted_reverse"]J2 ▴[/TH]
[TH="class: J1"]J1[/TH]
[TH="class: E1b"]E1b1b[/TH]
[TH="class: T"]T[/TH]
[TH="class: Q"]Q[/TH]
[TH="class: N1c1"]N[/TH]
[TD="class: samples"]Sample size[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: sortable"]
[TR="class: alt2"]
[TD="class: left"][/TD]
[TD="class: I1"][/TD]
[TD="class: I2"][/TD]
[TD="class: I2b"][/TD]
[TD="class: R1a"][/TD]
[TD="class: R1b"][/TD]
[TD="class: G2a"][/TD]
[TD="class: J2"][/TD]
[TD="class: J1"][/TD]
[TD="class: E1b"][/TD]
[TD="class: T"][/TD]
[TD="class: Q"][/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1"][/TD]
[TD="class: samples"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: alt2"]
[TD="class: left"]South Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: I1"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2"]9[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a"]10.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b"]20.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a"]3.5
[/TD]
[TD="class: J2"]19.5
[/TD]
[TD="class: J1"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b"]27
[/TD]
[TD="class: T"]4.5
[/TD]
[TD="class: Q"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: samples"]
rate05.gif
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: left, width: 130"]Albania[/TD]
[TD="class: I1"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: I2"]12[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a"]9[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b"]16[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2"]19.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J1"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b"]27.5[/TD]
[TD="class: T"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: Q"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: samples"]
rate07.gif
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: left, width: 130"]Central Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: I1"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2"]7[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a"]11[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b"]11.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a"]6[/TD]
[TD="class: J2"]19[/TD]
[TD="class: J1"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b"]29.5[/TD]
[TD="class: T"]5[/TD]
[TD="class: Q"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: samples"]
rate05.gif
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

These does not prove at all that J has been such a large componentcomponent some 500 - 1000 or more years ago.

Probably J exploded very recently from south Balkans, and are now found all over Europe, even in Estonia, Sweden, Norway, Scotland or Latvia.
Click to expand...


Almost everything you said here is wrong. First, Albanian J2 is mostly J2b, while Greek J2 is mostly J2a. These two split almost 30.000 years ago. Second, J is very ancient and has expanded in the Balkans since at least the Bronze Age, maybe earlier. I'll leave it at this for now, but you need to do some more research. Look at the ancient DNA map, look at the Minoan DNA paper, look at the TMRCAs of J subclades in YFull, look at results from different Balkan FTDNA projects.
 
Ownstyler said:
Almost everything you said here is wrong. First, Albanian J2 is mostly J2b, while Greek J2 is mostly J2a. These two split almost 30.000 years ago. Second, J is very ancient and has expanded in the Balkans since at least the Bronze Age, maybe earlier. I'll leave it at this for now, but you need to do some more research. Look at the ancient DNA map, look at the Minoan DNA paper, look at the TMRCAs of J subclades in YFull, look at results from different Balkan FTDNA projects.
Click to expand...

I do not understand what is wrong?!
Those are just data that has been determined by researchers in the field. I did not invent data but just told my opinion.
 
gidai said:
Probably J exploded very recently from south Balkans, and are now found all over Europe, even in Estonia, Sweden, Norway, Scotland or Latvia.
Click to expand...

This is your opinion and it is completely wrong. Even in the map you posted, 7 out of around 20 ancient samples form the Balkans are J.
 
Probably, some Js was in some proportions in palces like Creta, South Grece, South Caucas, many thounsand years, but more north in Europe... There are no evidence yet.
 
gidai said:
Probably, some Js was in some proportions in palces like Creta, South Grece, South Caucas, many thounsand years, but more north in Europe... There are no evidence yet.
Click to expand...

There are two in Croatia as well, both west and east. Again, do so more research, and look at different papers, FTDNA projects and the YFull tree. You are very, very far from the truth.
 
Ownstyler said:
There are two in Croatia as well, both west and east.
Click to expand...
Yes 2-3, there are from over 60 other (especialy I2a, R1b, G2a) in Balkans area... but at the level of H2, C and less than T.

Ownstyler said:
Again, do so more research, and look at different papers, FTDNA projects and the YFull tree. You are very, very far from the truth.
Click to expand...
I do not know. The project as well as the YFull are not about the current situation of the haplogrup?
 
gidai said:
Probably, some Js was in some proportions in palces like Creta, South Grece, South Caucas, many thounsand years, but more north in Europe... There are no evidence yet.
Click to expand...

Haplogroup J2b2 L283 was found in Bronze Age Northern Caucasus , so were more common ydna's that were more present in Indo Europeans such as certain R1a clades (which I haven't looked much into) and R1b atleast the L23 varient. The Indo Europeans clearly expanded from an area in Northern Caucasus or the Uralic mountains. They were a mix of Caucasians and Uralic people. Their language has also been suggested to of had this origin.

J2b2 L283 and R1b L23 or the deeper clades in Albanians are from Indo Europeans. The proto Ilyrians probably expanded into central Europe from the Northern Caucasus. In Central Europe they probably picked up quite some farmer admixture as the sample from Dalmatia had quite some. They expanded further into the West Balkans where they picked up even more farmer.

This is probably how Albanians , Greeks etc ended up as pred. Neolithic. Same thing would be applied for the proto Greeks.

Neolithic farmers had spread all across Europe way before even Bronze Age, and they made quite a presence even in central Europe, even Norwegians have quite some Neolithic admixture.

It is possible they came in different waves, there were some that had come through the sea, they were sea people and invaded Europe through the sea.

They contributed to modern Europeans in culture, language and genetics so the Indo European language theory in this regard makes no sense when they even only for example use the word Ilyrian to only refer to the people that had come from the Steppes. Such a word originated in the Western Balkans. Such people formed in the Balkans way after Bronze Age. And not in Bronze Age.

gidai said:
Among the hundreds of YDNA listed here, https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/v...8&ll=45.49395456132537,24.025325085150826&z=6 there are only 2 or 3 J in Europe from ancient times.

Today's situation places Albanians closest to the South and Central Greeks from the perspective of YDNA, with almost identical percentages of J or E.
[TABLE="class: sortable"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"]Region/Haplogroup[/TD]
[TH="class: I1"]I1
[/TH]
[TH="class: I2"]I2a[/TH]
[TH="class: I2b"]I2b[/TH]
[TH="class: R1a"]R1a
[/TH]
[TH="class: R1b"]R1b [/TH]
[TH="class: G2a"]G
[/TH]
[TH="class: J2 sorttable_sorted_reverse"]J2 ▴[/TH]
[TH="class: J1"]J1[/TH]
[TH="class: E1b"]E1b1b[/TH]
[TH="class: T"]T[/TH]
[TH="class: Q"]Q[/TH]
[TH="class: N1c1"]N[/TH]
[TD="class: samples"]Sample size[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: sortable"]
[TR="class: alt2"]
[TD="class: left"][/TD]
[TD="class: I1"][/TD]
[TD="class: I2"][/TD]
[TD="class: I2b"][/TD]
[TD="class: R1a"][/TD]
[TD="class: R1b"][/TD]
[TD="class: G2a"][/TD]
[TD="class: J2"][/TD]
[TD="class: J1"][/TD]
[TD="class: E1b"][/TD]
[TD="class: T"][/TD]
[TD="class: Q"][/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1"][/TD]
[TD="class: samples"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: alt2"]
[TD="class: left"]South Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: I1"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2"]9[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a"]10.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b"]20.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a"]3.5
[/TD]
[TD="class: J2"]19.5
[/TD]
[TD="class: J1"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b"]27
[/TD]
[TD="class: T"]4.5
[/TD]
[TD="class: Q"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: samples"]
rate05.gif
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: left, width: 130"]Albania[/TD]
[TD="class: I1"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: I2"]12[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a"]9[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b"]16[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2"]19.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J1"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b"]27.5[/TD]
[TD="class: T"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: Q"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: samples"]
rate07.gif
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: left, width: 130"]Central Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: I1"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2"]7[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a"]11[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b"]11.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a"]6[/TD]
[TD="class: J2"]19[/TD]
[TD="class: J1"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b"]29.5[/TD]
[TD="class: T"]5[/TD]
[TD="class: Q"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: samples"]
rate05.gif
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

These does not prove at all that J has been such a large component some 500 - 1000 or more years ago.

Probably J exploded very recently from south Balkans, and are now found all over Europe, even in Estonia, Sweden, Norway, Scotland or Latvia.
Click to expand...

Albanians are mostly J2b2 L283, it is mostly found in the North and Kosovo. Greeks are mostly J2a.

We share R1b and Ev13 though. These things could easily be a bottle neck effect. Albanians are more Northern shifted than Greeks as a whole.

Practically no evidence that haplogroup J came from south of the Balkans, atleast not J2b2 L283, everything points that it expanded with the Indo Europeans from the Northern Caucasus / Uralics and into the Balkans as we got a bronze age sample from Dalmatia and one from Northern Caucasus.

Hg J2a could of also expanded with Bronze Age people but more evidence is needed.

R1b L23 came def with IE people and is shared by all native Balkan people.

No evidence that J or E across Europe are from South Balkans or exploded recently , they could date all the way back to the Neolithic, Mesolithic and Bronze Age in such areas.



As for Albanians,

Albanians are probably a hybrid of Thracian and Ilyrian tribes with some Slavic. It is very unlikely Albanians came from one single tribe. Modern Albania was inhabited by different tribes, they didn't disappear in thin air, Kosovo and North Macedonia inhabited by the Dardani that probably also seeked refuge into Northern Albania and contributed to Albanians.

Some have suggested the Bessi Thracian tribe moved into Albania, they might also of contributed to Albanians but certainly cannot be the sole ancestors of Albanians pretty much dismantling Schramms theories and those Austrian scholars theories who copy pasted Schramm pretty much , another Austrian (I believe he was?) Georg Von hahns theory was much better , in his book Albanische studien, and less biased, you also have Elsie , Coon, Sufflay and Noel Malcolm that all did works on Albanians and plenty of others that make much more sense.

The Dardani bordered Bessi but Dardani were geographically closer to modern Albania, if a Bessi could of moved from West Bulgaria into Albania then so could the Dardani from Kosovo into Albania which it has been suggested and these people most certainly did not find Albania empty.
 
gidai said:
Yes 2-3, there are from over 60 other (especialy I2a, R1b, G2a) in Balkans area... but at the level of H2, C and less than T.

I do not know. The project as well as the YFull are not about the current situation of the haplogrup?
Click to expand...

No, not 2-3 out 60, but 7 out of around 20 in that map. Most samples there don't have Y-DNA, and close to 1/3 of those who have are J, so using your own criteria it was more widespread then than now.

Anyway, this discussion is pointless since J is old enough to be found from Central Africa to Sweden. Look at subclades, look at TMRCA on YFull and projects on FTDNA. There you can find groups who relate to each other in the last 2000-4000 years. You will notice that J2b-L283, for example, was very diverse at that time.
 
Ownstyler said:
No, not 2-3 out 60, but 7 out of around 20 in that map. Most samples there don't have Y-DNA, and close to 1/3 of those who have are J, so using your own criteria it was more widespread then than now.

Anyway, this discussion is pointless since J is old enough to be found from Central Africa to Sweden. Look at subclades, look at TMRCA on YFull and projects on FTDNA. There you can find groups who relate to each other in the last 2000-4000 years. You will notice that J2b-L283, for example, was very diverse at that time.
Click to expand...

I did not want to mix things up. There are sites in which more than 20 YDNAs were analyzed. In South Greece and in the Western Balkans, were found 7 Js , among others more then 20 haplogroups, of which 4 in Crete and southern Greece, but in the rest of Europe, not even among 200+.
 
gidai said:
I did not want to mix things up. There are sites in which more than 20 YDNAs were analyzed. In South Greece and in the Western Balkans, were found 7 Js , among others more then 20 haplogroups, of which 4 in Crete and southern Greece, but in the rest of Europe, not even among 200+.
Click to expand...

Which site in the Balkans has more than 20 Y-DNA ancient samples?
 
Gash said:
Haplogroup J2b2 L283 was found in Bronze Age Northern Caucasus , so were more common ydna's that were more present in Indo Europeans such as certain R1a clades (which I haven't looked much into) and R1b atleast the L23 varient. The Indo Europeans clearly expanded from an area in Northern Caucasus or the Uralic mountains. They were a mix of Caucasians and Uralic people. Their language has also been suggested to of had this origin.

J2b2 L283 and R1b L23 or the deeper clades in Albanians are from Indo Europeans. The proto Ilyrians probably expanded into central Europe from the Northern Caucasus. In Central Europe they probably picked up quite some farmer admixture as the sample from Dalmatia had quite some. They expanded further into the West Balkans where they picked up even more farmer.

This is probably how Albanians , Greeks etc ended up as pred. Neolithic. Same thing would be applied for the proto Greeks.

Neolithic farmers had spread all across Europe way before even Bronze Age, and they made quite a presence even in central Europe, even Norwegians have quite some Neolithic admixture.

It is possible they came in different waves, there were some that had come through the sea, they were sea people and invaded Europe through the sea.

They contributed to modern Europeans in culture, language and genetics so the Indo European language theory in this regard makes no sense when they even only for example use the word Ilyrian to only refer to the people that had come from the Steppes. Such a word originated in the Western Balkans. Such people formed in the Balkans way after Bronze Age. And not in Bronze Age.



Albanians are mostly J2b2 L283, it is mostly found in the North and Kosovo. Greeks are mostly J2a.

We share R1b and Ev13 though. These things could easily be a bottle neck effect. Albanians are more Northern shifted than Greeks as a whole.

Practically no evidence that haplogroup J came from south of the Balkans, atleast not J2b2 L283, everything points that it expanded with the Indo Europeans from the Northern Caucasus / Uralics and into the Balkans as we got a bronze age sample from Dalmatia and one from Northern Caucasus.

Hg J2a could of also expanded with Bronze Age people but more evidence is needed.

R1b L23 came def with IE people and is shared by all native Balkan people.

No evidence that J or E across Europe are from South Balkans or exploded recently , they could date all the way back to the Neolithic, Mesolithic and Bronze Age in such areas.



As for Albanians,

Albanians are probably a hybrid of Thracian and Ilyrian tribes with some Slavic. It is very unlikely Albanians came from one single tribe. Modern Albania was inhabited by different tribes, they didn't disappear in thin air, Kosovo and North Macedonia inhabited by the Dardani that probably also seeked refuge into Northern Albania and contributed to Albanians.

Some have suggested the Bessi Thracian tribe moved into Albania, they might also of contributed to Albanians but certainly cannot be the sole ancestors of Albanians pretty much dismantling Schramms theories and those Austrian scholars theories who copy pasted Schramm pretty much , another Austrian (I believe he was?) Georg Von hahns theory was much better , in his book Albanische studien, and less biased, you also have Elsie , Coon, Sufflay and Noel Malcolm that all did works on Albanians and plenty of others that make much more sense.

The Dardani bordered Bessi but Dardani were geographically closer to modern Albania, if a Bessi could of moved from West Bulgaria into Albania then so could the Dardani from Kosovo into Albania which it has been suggested and these people most certainly did not find Albania empty.
Click to expand...
Thank you! These are a lot of interesting information.
 
Ownstyler said:
Which site in the Balkans has more than 20 Y-DNA ancient samples?
Click to expand...
In Balkans are some with less like:
I4870, I4871, I4872, I4873, I4874, I4875, I4876, I4877, I4878, I4880, I4881, I4882, I5771, I5772, Mesolithic-Neolithic, 7100-5900 BCE
I4914, I4915, I4916, I4917, I5401, I5402, Mesolithic, 7300-6000 BCE
I0700, I1108, I1109, I1113, I1295, I1297, I3879, Criș(?), 5800-5400 calBCE
But to the north:
SZ1, Bronze Age; SZ2, SZ3, SZ4, SZ5, SZ7, SZ8, SZ9, SZ11, SZ12, SZ13, SZ14, SZ15, SZ16, SZ18, SZ19, SZ22, SZ23, SZ24, SZ27B, SZ28, SZ30, SZ32, SZ36, SZ37, SZ38, SZ40, SZ42, SZ43, SZ45, Longobard, 410-600 AD; AV1, AV2, Avar(?), 540-640 AD
And examples are much others.
 
gidai said:
In Balkans are some with less like:
I4870, I4871, I4872, I4873, I4874, I4875, I4876, I4877, I4878, I4880, I4881, I4882, I5771, I5772, Mesolithic-Neolithic, 7100-5900 BCE
I4914, I4915, I4916, I4917, I5401, I5402, Mesolithic, 7300-6000 BCE
I0700, I1108, I1109, I1113, I1295, I1297, I3879, Criș(?), 5800-5400 calBCE
Click to expand...

As I said, not all of them have Y-DNA! I thought you were unknowingly wrong, but now I see you were just lying.

You started by saying that there is almost no J in ancient Balkans, then said they're only 2-3 out of 60, and that it probably expanded in the last 500-1000 years. Now you see there are 7 ancient J results out of around 20, so your idea is wrong.

I have proven to you that J is very old in the Balkans, I'm not wasting any more time with this stupidity.
 
Ilyrians were people that formed in the Balkans so did the Thracians. They were a mixture of different group of people, and I'm pretty sure by the time of the Roman Empire they were mostly Neolithic even in Croatia. I'm going by genetics of South Slavs and Albanians. Remove the East Europe in South Slavs and add more of the South East Europe and they will all plot with Albanians for example, more or less. but in every country or people there are natural variations , north and south shifts, even for such small people as Albanians. But South Slavs that are the least East Europe are usually the closest to us. And I seen some South Slavs plot more South than some North Albos despite those South Slavs had more East Europe.

There is practically no evidence that the Ilyrians spoke different languages, atleast not by the time they emerged in the Balkans. Coon mostly identified them with the Hallstatt and Glasinac.

The Ilyrians got their name from their Greek and Roman neighbors, how similar they were is debatable but they were probably similar given their name. They certainly shared a common origin and common cultural elements , at some points they were gathered into kingdoms also. But of course weren't always united, they had no national counsciousness , proper civilization , they were mostly tribal. Say compared to the Greeks that were more united and at some point even the Thracians.

The Proto Ilyrians had come from the Hallstatt , the Ilyrians were also identified with the Glasinac culture in the Balkans so they seemed to of belonged to a similar culture. Much else we cannot say about these people nor their language. There isn't much left. They were influenced by the Greeks and Romans.

In Bosnia they found evidence of ancient Greek mythology. So did they for the Ilyrians in Italy.

One group of proto Ilyrians seem also to of invaded Italy during the Bronze Age.

Clades and subclades of ydnas or who carried what is certainly hard to identify with such people or every group among them as there are too little samples for once and they are possibly bottle neck effects but interesting to note all Ydnas common in Albanians were found in Croatia itself. Were the Ilyrians really that different ? Maybe there was a racial difference, dialectal and cultural difference as expected for such a large area same way there are differences among Italians or even small people like Albanians but by the time of the historical Ilyrians emerged who are we to say they weren't similar people ? There might of been natural variations for each region and foreign cultural elements like Celtic, Venetic, Greek etc but they could of still been united into a single country had it been possible at that time and wouldn't of neccessarly stood out more than any other modern country.

Aspurg said:
Illyrians were composed of several groups. There was a later LBA/EIA migration of various Urnfield culture elements and there are clearly identifiable Illyrian tribes some of whom differed considerably in their culture. J-L283 clades seem to have arrived earlier. Urnfield elements most likely included mutliple R1b U152 clades also quite possibly R-BY611, alongside some younger but very expansive E-V13 clades such as L241 and also Y145455, CTS9320 maybe some clades but this one has I believe more of a proto-Triballian/Daco-Moesian inspiration, and actually some of those people also joined Illyrians initially via alliances (like Atenica Illyrian burial) and later assimilation. Also J-ZS3128 fits there nicely. While Delmatae must have been dominantly J-L283 because their archaeological culture was a direct continuation of this culture where this L283 was found. I think generally L283 were more of aboriginal in comparison to Urnfield elements. Z631 seems very widespread even in a Celtic way but as already there are 2 Z631 clades in Albania, and there are some in Serbia and Montenegro which might prove to be some parallel clades, it might come to Z631 being connected with Glasinac-Mati Illyrian complex, because this complex in its core also should have included L283 clades. In such a case some Z631 could have been subsequently assimilated by Celts.

Whose language was Illyrian? Because I presume L283's and Unrfield Illyrians would have spoken different languages, and did some of those differences persist later in antiquity? That's much harder to say. There was according to Pliny a differentiation such as "Illyrians and real Illyrians/properly called Illyrians": Labeati, Senedi, Rudini, Sasaei, Grabaei were "real Illyrians" while Taulanti and Pyraei were "Illyrians".

According to Pomponius Mela "quos proprie Illyrios tum Pyraei et Liburnii et Istrii", so here also Pyraei are after "real Illyrians" also and with Liburnii and Istrii, I suspect Liburnii might have been L283 and PH1246 (going by Cetina culture hypothesis for V13) so does this mean that "Illyrians" are these pre-Urnfield tribes? Not sure, but it's worthy to explore further.
Click to expand...
 
Gash said:
Ilyrians were people that formed in the Balkans so did the Thracians. They were a mixture of different group of people, and I'm pretty sure by the time of the Roman Empire they were mostly Neolithic even in Croatia. I'm going by genetics of South Slavs and Albanians. Remove the East Europe in South Slavs and add more of the South East Europe and they will all plot with Albanians for example, more or less. but in every country or people there are natural variations , north and south shifts, even for such small people as Albanians. But South Slavs that are the least East Europe are usually the closest to us. And I seen some South Slavs plot more South than some North Albos despite those South Slavs had more East Europe.
There is practically no evidence that the Ilyrians spoke different languages, atleast not by the time they emerged in the Balkans. Coon mostly identified them with the Hallstatt and Glasinac.
The Ilyrians got their name from their Greek and Roman neighbors, how similar they were is debatable but they were probably similar given their name. They certainly shared a common origin and common cultural elements , at some points they were gathered into kingdoms also. But of course weren't always united, they had no national counsciousness , proper civilization , they were mostly tribal. Say compared to the Greeks that were more united and at some point even the Thracians.
The Proto Ilyrians had come from the Hallstatt , the Ilyrians were also identified with the Glasinac culture in the Balkans so they seemed to of belonged to a similar culture. Much else we cannot say about these people nor their language. There isn't much left. They were influenced by the Greeks and Romans.
In Bosnia they found evidence of ancient Greek mythology. So did they for the Ilyrians in Italy.
One group of proto Ilyrians seem also to of invaded Italy during the Bronze Age.
Clades and subclades of ydnas or who carried what is certainly hard to identify with such people or every group among them as there are too little samples for once and they are possibly bottle neck effects but interesting to note all Ydnas common in Albanians were found in Croatia itself. Were the Ilyrians really that different ? Maybe there was a racial difference, dialectal and cultural difference as expected for such a large area same way there are differences among Italians or even small people like Albanians but by the time of the historical Ilyrians emerged who are we to say they weren't similar people ? There might of been natural variations for each region and foreign cultural elements like Celtic, Venetic, Greek etc but they could of still been united into a single country had it been possible at that time and wouldn't of neccessarly stood out more than any other modern country.
Click to expand...
I agree with a lot you state, except the Greeks referred to Epirotes as Illyrians,...........only......even when the the corthians took Corfu in battle circa 700Bc, it was against the Liburnians, not illyrians
the Romans as far as I know never rarely used the term Illyrians,...they said the area of Illyricum, in which live the tribes of Dalmatians, Pannonians, Liburnians, Histrians etc
.
map above is in error with one, it misplaces the ardiaei.....they are from modern coastal Montenegro
 
Ownstyler said:
As I said, not all of them have Y-DNA! I thought you were unknowingly wrong, but now I see you were just lying.

You started by saying that there is almost no J in ancient Balkans, then said they're only 2-3 out of 60, and that it probably expanded in the last 500-1000 years. Now you see there are 7 ancient J results out of around 20, so your idea is wrong.

I have proven to you that J is very old in the Balkans, I'm not wasting any more time with this stupidity.
Click to expand...
What are you talking about? Who says I reffer only to the Balkans?
How you found only... 20 YDNAs from all the Balkan area, of which 7 of them are J2 ? Can you post these 20 results you have found?
I do not claims scientific strictness, but as much as I could, I make an effort and I have done now a search for Balkans area. I found 42 ancient YDNA in only 14 sites with 2 or more YDNA analised. There are more than 2x20 remnants, only in these 14? We have 42 YDNAs ! From these two are J2a.
If you want to look for the sites with only one determination, let's see if we have 50-60 or more... and who lie?...

I5234, I5235, I5236, I5237, I5238, I5239, I5240, I5241, I5242, I5244, I5409, Mesolithic, 9500-6200 BCE
I5235
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)
I5236
Y-DNA: I2a1
I5237
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)
I5240
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)

I4870, I4871, I4872, I4873, I4874, I4875, I4876, I4877, I4878, I4880, I4881, I4882, I5771, I5772, Mesolithic-Neolithic, 7100-5900 BCE
I4870
Y-DNA: I2
I4878
Y-DNA: I2a2a
I4880
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b2
I4881
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b2
I4882
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b
I5771
Y-DNA: I
I5772
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)

I4914, I4915, I4916, I4917, I5401, I5402, Mesolithic, 7300-6000 BCE
I4914
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b2
I4915
Y-DNA: I2a2
I4916
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1,xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)
I5401
Y-DNA: I2a2
I5402
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b

SC1_Meso, SC2_Meso, I4607, I5411, I5436, Mesolithic, 7000-6500 BC
SC1_Meso
Y-DNA: R
SC2_Meso
Y-DNA: R1
I4607
Y-DNA: I2
I5411
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)

I2423, I2424, I2430, Late Chalcolithic, 4545-4260 calBCE; I2175, I2176, Early Bronze Age, 3328-3015 calBCE
I2430
Y-DNA: R1b1a
I2175
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b1
I2176
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b

scy192, scy197, scy300, scy301, scy303, scy305, scy311, Scythian, 400 - 200 BCE
scy197:
Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2
scy301:
Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2
scy305:
Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2

I0706, I2521, Neolithic, 6300-5900 BCE
I0706
Y-DNA: C
I2521
Y-DNA: G2a2b2b1a

cim357, cim358, Chernogorovka(Cimmerian?), 950 - 800 BCE
cim357:
Y-DNA: R1b1a
cim358:
Y-DNA: Q1a1

I1889, I1895, I1896, Vinca, 5300-5000 BCE
I1889:
Y-DNA: G2a2a
I1896:
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a1a

OC1_Meso, I4582, I5408, Mesolithic, 7000-5000 calBCE
OC1_Meso
Y-DNA: R1b
I5408
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)

I0071, I0070, I0073, I0074, I9005, Minoan, 2000-1700 BCE
I0070:
Y-DNA: J2a1d
I0073:
Y-DNA: J2a1

I0698, I2529, Early Neolithic, 6000-5500 BCE
I0698
Y-DNA: G2a2a1a2a
I2529
Y-DNA: I2a2

I3433, I3947, I3948, Impresso, 6400-5500 BCE
I3947
Y-DNA: C1a2
I3948
Y-DNA: E1b1b1a1b1

I0634, I1131, Vinča, 4710-4460 calBCE
I0634
Y-DNA: G2a2a1a
I1131
Y-DNA: G2a2a1a
 
gidai said:
What are you talking about?
Click to expand...

Your previous claim was not true as most of those did not have Y-DNA. None of the Balkan sites have more than 20 Y-DNA samples.

These new ones you brought, yes, they have do Y-DNA, although 13 of those are outside the Balkans. And, again, you did not count them right because there are 7 Js there, and you only found 2. I told you to check in Croatia and Greece for Js. I counted all Y-DNA samples from 5000 BC, because the population was almost entirely replaced after that, and J is 7 out of 20-22. Even if you count all time periods it is among the main haplogroups, so again, using your own method, your idea that it is new to the Balkans is completely wrong. It is actually among the oldest and most widespread ones since at least the Bronze Age.

This conclusion is also easily reached by looking at other data that I explained above.
 
Ownstyler said:
Your previous claim was not true as most of those did not have Y-DNA. None of the Balkan sites have more than 20 Y-DNA samples.

These new ones you brought, yes, they have do Y-DNA, although 13 of those are outside the Balkans. And, again, you did not count them right because there are 7 Js there, and you only found 2. I told you to check in Croatia and Greece for Js. I counted all Y-DNA samples from 5000 BC, because the population was almost entirely replaced after that, and J is 7 out of 20-22. Even if you count all time periods it is among the main haplogroups, so again, using your own method, your idea that it is new to the Balkans is completely wrong. It is actually among the oldest and most widespread ones since at least the Bronze Age.

This conclusion is also easily reached by looking at other data that I explained above.
Click to expand...

I5234, I5235, I5236, I5237, I5238, I5239, I5240, I5241, I5242, I5244, I5409, Mesolithic, 9500-6200 BCE
I5235
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)
I5236
Y-DNA: I2a1
I5237
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)
I5240
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)

I4870, I4871, I4872, I4873, I4874, I4875, I4876, I4877, I4878, I4880, I4881, I4882, I5771, I5772, Mesolithic-Neolithic, 7100-5900 BCE
I4870
Y-DNA: I2
I4878
Y-DNA: I2a2a
I4880
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b2
I4881
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b2
I4882
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b
I5771
Y-DNA: I
I5772
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)

I4914, I4915, I4916, I4917, I5401, I5402, Mesolithic, 7300-6000 BCE
I4914
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b2
I4915
Y-DNA: I2a2
I4916
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1,xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)
I5401
Y-DNA: I2a2
I5402
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b

SC1_Meso, SC2_Meso, I4607, I5411, I5436, Mesolithic, 7000-6500 BC
SC1_Meso
Y-DNA: R
SC2_Meso
Y-DNA: R1
I4607
Y-DNA: I2
I5411
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)

I2423, I2424, I2430, Late Chalcolithic, 4545-4260 calBCE; I2175, I2176, Early Bronze Age, 3328-3015 calBCE
I2430
Y-DNA: R1b1a
I2175
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b1
I2176
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b

scy192, scy197, scy300, scy301, scy303, scy305, scy311, Scythian, 400 - 200 BCE
scy197:
Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2
scy301:
Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2
scy305:
Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2

I0706, I2521, Neolithic, 6300-5900 BCE
I0706
Y-DNA: C
I2521
Y-DNA: G2a2b2b1a

cim357, cim358, Chernogorovka(Cimmerian?), 950 - 800 BCE
cim357:
Y-DNA: R1b1a
cim358:
Y-DNA: Q1a1

I1889, I1895, I1896, Vinca, 5300-5000 BCE
I1889:
Y-DNA: G2a2a
I1896:
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a1a

OC1_Meso, I4582, I5408, Mesolithic, 7000-5000 calBCE
OC1_Meso
Y-DNA: R1b
I5408
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)

I0071, I0070, I0073, I0074, I9005, Minoan, 2000-1700 BCE
I0070:
Y-DNA: J2a1d
I0073:
Y-DNA: J2a1

I0698, I2529, Early Neolithic, 6000-5500 BCE
I0698
Y-DNA: G2a2a1a2a
I2529
Y-DNA: I2a2

I3433, I3947, I3948, Impresso, 6400-5500 BCE
I3947
Y-DNA: C1a2
I3948
Y-DNA: E1b1b1a1b1


I0634, I1131, Vinča, 4710-4460 calBCE
I0634
Y-DNA: G2a2a1a
I1131
Y-DNA: G2a2a1a

From sites with single Ydna remain:

I1889, I1895, I1896, Vinca, 5300-5000 BCE
I1889:
Y-DNA: G2a2a
I1896:
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a1a
I4331
Y-DNA: J2b2a
I5072
Y-DNA: G2a2a1
I0676
Y-DNA: G2a2b2b1
I9041:
Y-DNA: J2a1
Klei10:
Y-DNA: G2a2a1b
I1887:
Y-DNA: H2
I1880:
Y-DNA: G2a2b2b1a
I2165
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b1b
I2163
Y-DNA: R1a1a1b2
Bul6
Y-DNA: I2a2
Bul4
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b1b
I2520
Y-DNA: H2
I2510
Y-DNA: G2a2a1a2
I2431
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a1a1c1a
ANI159-ANI181
Y-DNA: G2a2b2b
I2532
Y-DNA: G2a2b2b
I4089
Y-DNA: C1a2a
I4081
Y-DNA: R1b1a
I5232
Y-DNA: R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)
Oase1
Y-DNA: F
I2792
Y-DNA: G2a2a1a2a
I0633
Y-DNA: G2a2a1
I3499
Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2a2
I5078
Y-DNA: J2a1
I5077
Y-DNA: G2a2a1
I3499
Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2a2
I3498
Y-DNA: C


Be clear what you've found, with data for those 20-22 YDNA from witch, you say, 7 are Js, from what time you want. I have found in the area 69 ancient YDNA discovered so far, from witch 4 are J2a and 1 J2b. 3 of its (60%) are from Creta and Peloponnes and other two from Croatia.
Maybe I am wrong. So... what are your data about your 20 remains with 7 Js YDNA?
 
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