Free and independent Kurdistan is coming soon.

and after the referendum

THE BATTLE FOR OIL.

now that' we used' Kurds to fight for us against DAESH
lets kick them back,

the batlle for Kirkuk part 2.
with participation of Of Iranian baxcked militias
even Turkey is bombing by air,


oh boy, International diplomacy, just crap

to use the before 2014 lines, or not?

different rules in Ukraine,
different rules in Kossovo and Bosnia
different rules in Catalania
different rules in Syrria
different rules in North Kurdistan
etc etc


feeling the lonelyness
 
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Are Iraqis going to stop on oil fields or they will try to subdue all the Kurdistan in old Iraq borders?

Where is the West to support the only natural and true ally in Middle East, and biggest nation without own country? It is a shame if not a crime!
 
Doesn't make any sense for the west to support Kurdistan and make enemies out of already established(And weakening) allies like Iraq and Turkey. A sensible part of the Kurdistan government seems to be in support of federalism over independence and the withdrawal from Kirkuk (A multi-ethnic city, the majority of the population is a mix of Arab, Assyrian, Turkmen and others, not just Kurdish) and oil fields was pre-planned on some level with the Iraqi government by moderate factions within the KRG.

No, we will not see an independent Kurdistan anytime soon since even the KRG realizes it's a pipe dream given the Turkish, Syrian, Iranian and Iraqi governments will do everything to prevent it and the US and other westerner nations who help train the Peshmerga have all condemned the independence referendum. I don't see the need for Kurdish Independence either considering the land they claim is multi ethnic and would just further destabilize the region. I hope after the ISIS insurgency is deposed of we won't have to worry about the Kurdish one. Iraqi Kurdistan will be established back to it's size before the overthrow of Saddam and the Ba'athists. Also don't be surprised if we see similar events unfold in Rojava by either Turkey or Syria in the near future.
 
Promenade said:
Doesn't make any sense for the west to support Kurdistan and make enemies out of already established(And weakening) allies like Iraq and Turkey. A sensible part of the Kurdistan government seems to be in support of federalism over independence and the withdrawal from Kirkuk (A multi-ethnic city, the majority of the population is a mix of Arab, Assyrian, Turkmen and others, not just Kurdish) and oil fields was pre-planned on some level with the Iraqi government by moderate factions within the KRG.
No, we will not see an independent Kurdistan anytime soon since even the KRG realizes it's a pipe dream given the Turkish, Syrian, Iranian and Iraqi governments will do everything to prevent it and the US and other westerner nations who help train the Peshmerga have all condemned the independence referendum. I don't see the need for Kurdish Independence either considering the land they claim is multi ethnic and would just further destabilize the region. I hope after the ISIS insurgency is deposed of we won't have to worry about the Kurdish one. Iraqi Kurdistan will be established back to it's size before the overthrow of Saddam and the Ba'athists. Also don't be surprised if we see similar events unfold in Rojava by either Turkey or Syria in the near future.
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Is that the USA policy, to back stab an ally in the kurds................let us let 25 million kurds die at the hands of these turks and iraqis
 
Sile said:
Is that the USA policy, to back stab an ally in the kurds................let us let 25 million kurds die at the hands of these turks and iraqis
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Well Sile, causalities are currently only in the dozens so far(Mostly due to miscommunication between the KRG and Peshmerga forces) but if you'd like to see them reach the millions we could always arm the Kurds and provoke them to war against the rest of Iraq for no reason other than to appease westerners who want to see a new country on their maps.

USA armed the Kurds to defeat ISIS and protect the people (Of all ethnicities and creeds) in the region... not to haphazardly fuel an unneeded independence movement of a people who inhabit over half a dozen different nations. Statehood was mentioned no where by the US, we are returning back to the status quo of federalism rather than throwing the middle east into more distress and provoking Turkey and Iraq and other ethnic minorities residing in Kurdistan regions like the Turkmen, Yazidis, Armenians, Assyrians and Arabs.
 
Promenade said:
Well Sile, causalities are currently only in the dozens so far(Mostly due to miscommunication between the KRG and Peshmerga forces) but if you'd like to see them reach the millions we could always arm the Kurds and provoke them to war against the rest of Iraq for no reason other than to appease westerners who want to see a new country on their maps.

USA armed the Kurds to defeat ISIS and protect the people (Of all ethnicities and creeds) in the region... not to haphazardly fuel an unneeded independence movement of a people who inhabit over half a dozen different nations. Statehood was mentioned no where by the US, we are returning back to the status quo of federalism rather than throwing the middle east into more distress and provoking Turkey and Iraq and other ethnic minorities residing in Kurdistan regions like the Turkmen, Yazidis, Armenians, Assyrians and Arabs.
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You managed to miss the wish of millions of Kurds who voted for their independance in referendum. I guess, basic human rights are nothing for you.
 
LeBrok said:
Where is the West to support the only natural and true ally in Middle East, and biggest nation without own country? It is a shame if not a crime!
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Only natural ally in Middle East. :laughing::laughing::laughing:

When I was UK, I loved this idiom,

"Great Britain does not have friends, only interest"

So let's be mature.

Kurds could be easliy took more authonomy and even gain authonomy for Ezidi people in Sincar and able to create special statues for Mosul and Kerkuk so these cities wouldn't face any Arabisation policy as in Saddam period.

Maybe Autonomy just in Hassake for Syrian Kurds, not Afrin or Kobani


But now they have nothing,

However I don't think Iraq goverment can move forward previous borders between North Iraq.
 
LeBrok said:
You managed to miss the wish of millions of Kurds who voted for their independance in referendum. I guess, basic human rights are nothing for you.
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Same as Russian Crimea yeah...
 
LeBrok said:
You managed to miss the wish of millions of Kurds who voted for their independance in referendum. I guess, basic human rights are nothing for you.
Click to expand...

Okay yeah, you can jump straight into the juvenile and try to make some black and white argument here where "everyone who doesn't support self determination is against basic human rights!" but in this situation it's simply bad diplomacy and an awful idea. I see how it is attractive to support a Kurdish state given their secularism in a region torn by religious wars, but their nationalism and misguided irredentism could easily lead to something far worse. It would immediately solidify Iraq as an Iranian proxy and shift Turkey towards the Russian/Iranian axis, not to mention complicate the already complex issue in Syria. The USA already made the mistake of supporting the FSA with many of them ending up becoming Salafists and Al-qaeda affiliates. The Kurds dont exactly have a positive opinion of capitalism and the western market system either and given their history ignoring western pleas it's likely they view cooperation with the US with little enthusiasm beyond collecting the arms we provide them and help with creating their nation state. It's pragmatic and in everyone's best interests for the US to help the Kurds defend themselves against ISIS, it is not pragmatic for the US to bomb Iraq over a non binding referendum while the Iraqis are fighting ISIS themselves and taking back territory that doesnt even belong to the KRG to begin with.

As for the recent skirmishes I dont even think most people here realize that Kirkuk isn't originally part of the KRG nor is it majority Kurdish and that so far Iraq has simply taken back regions that were originally not part of the KRG as specified in their constitution. Someone mentioned the potential of 25 million Kurds dying when there have been very few casualties, there is dialog between the Peshmerga and Iraqi military and the Iraqi government is already based upon federalism and gives the Kurdish people a great deal of autonomy. There is no need to weaken a state that fell to barbarians in Toyota trucks and create a new one with aspirations beyond its borders, they need more unity than division. If holding this opinion somehow makes me scorn human rights then see where an independent Kurdistan takes the western world and the mid east because I'm sure it would lead to a conflict worse than what we saw after the fall of Saddam. I'm glad even the Canadian government had the sanity to denounce the referendum.
 
@ promande

watch this video again,

[/video]

now instead of a WW2 mother, imagine a temen and a muslim mother,

now go to kid,

What this kid thinks and feel,

his father 'flown the ocean' for what?

and how lonelyness to feel when everybody for centuries,
sais No
No state for you,

WEST and Capitalism is making enemies
those who fought against the theocratic state model

maybe you prefer Theocracy, or bankers Dictatorship, than the old Western 'Free world'

and in Balkans most countries have minorities,
but all minorirties have somewhere a state,

I know enough Kurdish way of thinking through History,
if they kick again their chance, then the next will be in next century.
they kick it many times in past,


When H Kissinger design to blow balkans at 1970's
he said something like that
'the ones who have been supressed will rule and supress their masters'
so do not talk me about USA or West diplomacy and better what is good for capitalism
cause I do not care about Bankers dictatorship.
they earn from that war.

it is a mistake, of the WEST,
not to solve the area problem,

and I repeat
UN is just ridiculous today,
like the Society of nations at 1930's
puppets with high income,
other measures of justice in Crimea and Ukraine
other measures of Justice in Bosnia and Kossovo
other measures of Justice in Catalania
other measures of Justice in N Kurdistan
WEST is just moving 'where the wind blow'
or 'justice is Green' (purple in Europe)

we just manage, to re-divide them again, following the Dogma 'Divide and Conquer', as in past,
but the feeling of lonelyness they got will put more hate against what we call Free world, if it is FREE.

and is not Kirkuk, that matters,
but the way we said to them
'GO BACK HOME, TO YOUR MOUNTAINS, WE DO NOT NEED YOU ANYMORE,
Do Not touch us, you primitive goat breaders'
instead of take them by hand, and help them to create a democratic modern state,

we send them back as not accepted, instead of send them proffeseurs, make them universities,
and teach them how must be a modern state,
and believe me, many of them are high educated,
higher than many WESTern presidents.
 
See, this is exactly what I meant. Instead of addressing the reality of the situation it’s become a farfetched dichotomy with a loaded question of either being for or against human rights. So I guess western leaders from Trudeau to Macron are all violating human rights when they urge Kurds to stick to the federalist model instead of doing something brash that could further destabilize the region.

The Kurds already have an autonomous state within Iraq, a Prime Minister, full control over their domestic affairs and even their own military. They stand little to gain from declaring an independent state other than sparking war and possibly losing all these things. I think the Kurds in Rojava understand this a lot better and that’s why they are wisely seeking federalism and autonomy rather than statehood.(Although I worry about their future with Turkey looming nearby) They also respect the fact they occupy an ethnically diverse area not solely belonging to the Kurdish people and inhabited by people who don’t want to trade an Alawite domination for a Kurdish one, even if both governments are secular. In a perfect world would there be an independent Kurdish state? Perhaps in a perfect world there would be an independent state for all groups of people who demand it, but in a realistic world all that independence achieves here is further jeopardizing stability in the middle east. In fact I think it would be a greater miracle to see a democratic federalist state achieve some kind of long term functionality in the middle east rather than see Kurdistan break from Iraq.
 
Promenade said:
See, this is exactly what I meant. Instead of addressing the reality of the situation it’s become a farfetched dichotomy with a loaded question of either being for or against human rights. So I guess western leaders from Trudeau to Macron are all violating human rights when they urge Kurds to stick to the federalist model instead of doing something brash that could further destabilize the region.

The Kurds already have an autonomous state within Iraq, a Prime Minister, full control over their domestic affairs and even their own military. They stand little to gain from declaring an independent state other than sparking war and possibly losing all these things. I think the Kurds in Rojava understand this a lot better and that’s why they are wisely seeking federalism and autonomy rather than statehood.(Although I worry about their future with Turkey looming nearby) They also respect the fact they occupy an ethnically diverse area not solely belonging to the Kurdish people and inhabited by people who don’t want to trade an Alawite domination for a Kurdish one, even if both governments are secular. In a perfect world would there be an independent Kurdish state? Perhaps in a perfect world there would be an independent state for all groups of people who demand it, but in a realistic world all that independence achieves here is further jeopardizing stability in the middle east. In fact I think it would be a greater miracle to see a democratic federalist state achieve some kind of long term functionality in the middle east rather than see Kurdistan break from Iraq.
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There are two separate issues, please notice. One is of political reality type, of what practical action Kurds and the world should take to avoid a war. This is what you are addressing, all the time. I'm fine with this, this is your opinion. However, you are keeping your head in sand when it comes to human rights issue, moral problems, the socio-judicial aspect of human existence. It does exist and need to be addressed.

To open your eyes on invalidity of your argument from couple of posts back:
Perhaps US shouldn't have a right to exist as a country either, because of its mixed ethnical character?
And don't forget, US happened after domestic war against bigger national entity, GB.
 
Promenade said:
See, this is exactly what I meant. Instead of addressing the reality of the situation it’s become a farfetched dichotomy with a loaded question of either being for or against human rights. So I guess western leaders from Trudeau to Macron are all violating human rights when they urge Kurds to stick to the federalist model instead of doing something brash that could further destabilize the region.

The Kurds already have an autonomous state within Iraq, a Prime Minister, full control over their domestic affairs and even their own military. They stand little to gain from declaring an independent state other than sparking war and possibly losing all these things. I think the Kurds in Rojava understand this a lot better and that’s why they are wisely seeking federalism and autonomy rather than statehood.(Although I worry about their future with Turkey looming nearby) They also respect the fact they occupy an ethnically diverse area not solely belonging to the Kurdish people and inhabited by people who don’t want to trade an Alawite domination for a Kurdish one, even if both governments are secular. In a perfect world would there be an independent Kurdish state? Perhaps in a perfect world there would be an independent state for all groups of people who demand it, but in a realistic world all that independence achieves here is further jeopardizing stability in the middle east. In fact I think it would be a greater miracle to see a democratic federalist state achieve some kind of long term functionality in the middle east rather than see Kurdistan break from Iraq.
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Hρακλειτος , Heraclitus of Ephessos,
said something about chance, oportunity, occasion

Ποταμώ ουκ έστιν εμβήναι δις τω αυτώ
meaning you can not enter for second time to the same river, cause river change.

and
Ήθος ανθρώπω δαίμων
character is faith of human.

I respect your opinion,
Although I do not share it,
I believe that West must help them to make their first steps to an open democratic and free country,
otherwise, it is like tell them, you are not a worthy nation,

their previous 'river' was the times of Sykes Piquot,
they lost it,
now they have the chance to enter the same but another 'river',
their character is their faith,

and I agree with you that a new state will make a new power there,
something that Bankers and many corporations do not want,
and they might even get into a civil war, tribes vs tribes or party vs party since they might have no occupation forces,
BUT ISN"T THAT HAPPENING IN WEST?

I still insist that WEST has a chance to make a new democracy there,
away from the protypes of typical Middle east dictators of previous era,
and produce a more open country as a frontier to radical Islamic-theocratic forces,
we must take them by hand, and lead them,
not kick them back,
or say to them, ''yes you did help us but now that we don't need you more, you are unwanted''.

and whatever result, I believe West must build universities, free thinking centers, embassies, open new trade routes,
powerplants, etc etc

we own to them, they don't.
 
Boreas said:
to people who has pure dream, but not rationality

How they gave referandum realism
"68 out of 111 lawmakers attended the session with Gorran boycotting it"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdistan_independence_referendum,_2017#cite_note-43

Barzani is Kurdish Erdoğan or other type of Middle Eastern dictator.
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No matter Erdogan is a strange personality,
He is elected, and his 'power' has a time limit, every few years.
that is why although I admit that Erdogan is a strange person,
I supported him against the military actions few years before,
it is a good start to understand what is Democracy,
which is not always perfect.
and yes democracy can easily be cheated,
and some may easily turn it to a strange form,
but even this have a time limit and elections
 
Garrick said:
Rationality in terms:What is good for Turkey it is rationality.Otherwise (for example in Kurdish case) it is a dream.
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I explain my thought in the previous posts "Kurds could be easliy took more authonomy and even gain authonomy for Ezidi people in Sincar and able to create special statues for Mosul and Kerkuk so these cities wouldn't face any Arabisation policy as in Saddam period." I am lefting to you to think that how much good these for Turkey.and totally yes, if declaration of independence now is the issue, it is a dream.
Yetos said:
No matter Erdogan is a strange personality,He is elected, and his 'power' has a time limit, every few years.
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Erdoğan could't be a leader in his party after the his second term then he elected as president then he changed entire system of the country and brought presidence system, because in the previous system president didn't have power.when the issue is power, your immagination is very low. Barzani also needed to left his seat, but because of ISIS, he didn't and this referandum was just a cheap populist act.
Yetos said:
that is why although I admit that Erdogan is a strange person,I supported him against the military actions few years before,
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??? Do you mean comedy show of military coup ?
Yetos said:
it is a good start to understand what is Democracy,which is not always perfect.and yes democracy can easily be cheated,and some may easily turn it to a strange form,but even this have a time limit and elections
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About Democracy,The biggest argument against democracy is a five minute discussion with the average voter.–Winston ChurchillEven very fasict, extreme-nationalist people form each minority, wants to be independence. The real humanism is find the way to life in together same as Bosnian students... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-eur...ils-fight-ethnically-divided-educationHowever is it over, notSame as Quebec or Scotland they held referandums and people who wants to independence lost the referandum but some of them still want it. so similar with Kurds, especially South Kurdistan who has already taste of authonomy. They won't stop. There are just a few country had a chance to take their independence with law, so independence mostly was gained, not given. Just stop dramatize the issue more then it is. The drama was Ezidi womens' situations, not the Iraq taking over own land. If they move more to Erbil, yes it will be drama. I hope, it won't.All I said is, it was not the time
 
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