O.K. let's move beyond the original tone of the post. (I still think you should clear this with Maciamo and/or the moderators.)
I think the confusion still reigns. The post from Anthrogenica deals with mtDNA, yDNA, and general attribution of culture. Now, I have no personal knowledge of the matter, but it states there, as you can see upthread, that Genetiker claimed that Hinxton 1, ERS389795, was an Anglo-Saxon, and that Felix/Eurogenes held that Hinxton 1 ERS389795 was Iron Age - Celt. I don't if that's correct.
I do know that we on this thread said a few days ago that ERS389795 was probably Anglo Saxon.
Ed. Also from the abstract,
"We find in particular that while the Anglo-Saxon samples resemble more closely the modern British population than the earlier samples..."
So, some of those earlier papers based on the analysis of the y chromosome which posited
very large amounts of gene flow from the Anglo Saxons into all the British Isles may indeed have been correct.
ERS389798 -Iron Age Kelt R1b
K12b
- 39.04% North_European
- 32.43% Atlantic_Med
- 9.12% Caucasus
- 5.96% Gedrosia
- 3.54% Sub_Saharan
- 2.90% South_Asian
- 2.73% East_African
- 2.63% Northwest_African
- 1.63% Southwest_Asian
- 0.02% Siberian
- 0.00% East_Asian
- 0.00% Southeast_Asian
dv3
- 59.73% West_European
- 24.91% Mediterranean
- 8.22% East_European
- 5.41% Palaeo_African
- 1.69% Neo_African
- 0.03% Northwest_African
- 0.00% East_African
- 0.00% Northeast_Asian
- 0.00% South_Asian
- 0.00% Southeast_Asian
- 0.00% Southwest_Asian
- 0.00% West_Asian
ERS389795-Anglo Saxon
K12b
- 49.89% North_European
- 30.08% Atlantic_Med
- 9.78% Caucasus
- 3.63% East_Asian
- 3.19% Sub_Saharan
- 1.31% Northwest_African
- 1.16% Siberian
- 0.79% East_African
- 0.08% Gedrosia
- 0.07% South_Asian
- 0.00% Southeast_Asian
- 0.00% Southwest_Asian
dv3
- 41.46% West_European
- 24.44% East_European
- 17.31% Mediterranean
- 5.55% Northwest_African
- 3.17% South_Asian
- 2.69% Palaeo_African
- 1.70% West_Asian
- 1.21% Northeast_Asian
- 0.99% Southeast_Asian
- 0.85% Southwest_Asian
- 0.63% Neo_African
- 0.00% East_African
- Ed. to change the K-12b results for the Iron Age Celt. While I can see why, in the abstract, the authors said the samples are all broadly north European, I think there are come significant differences.
I later went on to say:
As I said, it now seems pretty clear that ERS389797 and ERS389798 are Iron Age, and ERS389795, 389796 and 389799 are from the Anglo-Saxon period.
The 798 Iron Age male was probably R1b, and possibly belonged to R1b1a2a1a2c1g2-FGC3903/S5201/Y2890.T
There is some debate about the 795 Anglo Saxon period male, and Genetiker may have been wrong here. The Anglo-Saxon period male may have carried an upstream branch of R1b.
So, to recap:
ERS389798 -Iron Age Kelt R1b- L21, possibly
R1b1a2a1a2c1g2-FGC3903/S5201/Y2890.T
K12b
- 39.04% North_European
- 32.43% Atlantic_Med
- 9.12% Caucasus
- 5.96% Gedrosia
- 3.54% Sub_Saharan
- 2.90% South_Asian
- 2.73% East_African
- 2.63% Northwest_African
- 1.63% Southwest_Asian
- 0.02% Siberian
- 0.00% East_Asian
- 0.00% Southeast_Asian
ERS389795-Anglo Saxon Period Male-possibly R1b L11+
K12b
- 49.89% North_European
- 30.08% Atlantic_Med
- 9.78% Caucasus
- 3.63% East_Asian
- 3.19% Sub_Saharan
- 1.31% Northwest_African
- 1.16% Siberian
- 0.79% East_African
- 0.08% Gedrosia
- 0.07% South_Asian
- 0.00% Southeast_Asian
- 0.00% Southwest_Asian
The Anglo-Saxon period male has approximately the same amount of "Caucasus" as the Iron Age Celt, and only 2.5 points less Atlantic Med. However, he is 11 points more "North European". He also has 3.63% East Asian, and 1.16% Siberian, none of which show up in the Iron Age Celt.
The Iron Age Celt has 2.63% Northwest African, compared to 1.31%, he has 2.73% East African, compared to .79%, and he has 5.96% Gedrosia and 2.90% South Asian, compared to virtually none for the Anglo-Saxon.
No wonder we can find the following statement in the abstract:
the Iron Age samples share more low frequency variation than the later ones with present day samples from southern Europe, in particular Spain (1000GP IBS). In addition the Anglo-Saxon period samples appear to share a stronger older component with Finnish (1000GP FIN) individuals.
The more northern, more northeastern "tilt" of the Anglo-Saxon sample seems pretty clear.
I'm not comfortable with placing the Iron Age samples within a specific archaeological context until we get the paper. All that the abstract says is that the samples came from five individuals that were found in archaeological excavations at the Wellcome Trust Genome Campus near Cambridge (UK), There seems to be some confusion about whether they are indeed Belgae related samples.
I would still like to see an EEF/WHG/ANE read on the Iron Age sample if anyone has it. Although I don't have a lot of confidence in that blogger calculator, it is at least based on actual ancient genomes. I have even less confidence in his later efforts.
Please correct if necessary...it seems to be a moving target.
On Maciamo's thread, I analyzed the data using the k-23b numbers from Genetiker:
OK, if some people think that the MDLP K23b is better, because it's the only one that has no “calculator effect”, let’s look at K23b.
Sample ERS389795-What Genetiker calls the “Anglo-Saxon” sample?:
MDLP K23b
- 35.13% European_Hunters_Gatherers
- 31.41% Caucasian
- 19.44% European_Early_Farmers
- 6.42% Ancestral-North-Eurasian
- 2.41% Ancestral-North-Indian
- 2.24% Archaic-Human
- 1.29% African-Pygmy
- 0.75% East-African
- 0.49% Near-East
- 0.22% East-Siberian
- 0.11% Ancestral-South-Indian
- 0.05% Archaic-African
- 0.04% North-African
Sample ERS389798-What Genetiker calls the Iron Age Sample?
MDLP K23b
- 32.46% European_Hunters_Gatherers
- 31.80% European_Early_Farmers
- 13.98% Caucasian
- 6.77% Ancestral-North-Indian
- 6.56% Ancestral-North-Eurasian
- 4.69% Subsaharian
- 1.35% North-African
- 0.97% East-African
- 0.54% Arctic
- 0.29% Ancestral-South-Indian
- 0.22% Melano-Polinesian
- 0.16% Austroloid
- 0.09% Near-East
- 0.07% Paleo-Siberian
The two samples have approximately the same amount of WHG (although Sample 95-Anglo Saxon? is 3 points higher)
ERS389798-Iron Age Celt sample?- has quite a bit more EEF, 31.80 compared to 19.44 and it also has about 7% African, compared to about 2.5% for 95 Anglo Saxon?, and in addition it has more Ancestral North Indian, which might be associated with Gedrosia? at 6.77, compared to 2.41.
In terms of the Caucasus component it is reversed. Sample ERS389795-Anglo Saxon? has 31.41 Caucasus compared to 13.98 for ERS389798 Iron Age Celt?
They have the same amount of ANE, at a low level of 6-7%
I think it’s noteworthy that the ANE percentages are extremely low(6-7%) compared to the levels in modern northern Europe, where the levels are around 14,15,16%
As for EEF, with Sample ERS389795-Anglo Saxon? the EEF level is 30 points lower than that of modern English people (approximately 20% compared to approximately 50%), while
Sample ERS389798 Celt? is about 18 points lower ( 32% versus 50%).
You do get close to 50% for the ERS389795-Anglo Saxon? sample if you add the EEF farmer and Caucasus components. For the ERS389798 Iron Age sample?, you get to 45%.
These are, once again, the WHG/EEF/ANE figures for modern English people:
WHG: .364
EEF: .495
ANE: .141
Sample ERS389795-Anglo Saxon?:
HG: 35.13
EEF + Caucasus: 50-51%
ANE: 6.42
Sample ERS389798-Iron Age Celt?:
WHG:32.46
EEF + Caucasus: 45.78
ANE:6.56
As I said, the ANE is off, and you have to combine EEF and Caucasus to get to the EEF levels of modern English people. (Perhaps the "Caucasus" component on this particular calculator is just an eastern drifted version of EEF?
(For those who still can't seem to grasp that EEF is a "set of genes" from a Stuttgart LBK woman used for comparison, and that according to Lazaridis et al the best estimate right now is probably something around 20% WHG picked up in Europe and 80% genetic material that arrived from the Near East, all I can suggest is a re-reading of Lazaridis et al and every page of the Supplementary material. )
Of the two samples, Sample ERS389795, what Genetiker calls the Anglo Saxon sample?, seems closer to modern English people in terms of the WHG/EEF/ANE formulation, but not by a whole lot. The abstract says the Anglo-Saxon sample is closer to the modern English. Make of it what you will. I’m just trying to think it through, just like everyone else.
Sample ERS389798, which Genetiker calls the Iron Age Celt sample?, has more “African” components, (7% vs. 2.5%) which might, along with 3% less WHG, mean a more Southern? Signature.
That’s what I can see so far. It seems as if Sample ERS389795 is more north, and, if you look at the Caucasus component, more east than the ERS389798 sample. So, aren't I basically where I was after analyzing the data through the prism of the Dodecad runs, only with quite a bit less specificity?
If I made any mistakes, please correct the record. After all the confusion I’m not even sure that I’m attributing Genetiker’s attribution of the samples correctly! Having only Sample numbers is maddening. Also, if anyone has different numbers for a K23b run of these ancient samples, that would be good to know, as would any Oracle results for these samples.
Now, I’m going to leave it until the paper comes out and we know the official attribution of these samples to specific times and archeological contexts.
Oh, and the fact that one or both of these samples might plot near the Orcadians on a PCA plot is singularly unhelpful in terms of figuring out the origins and migration paths of these two ancient samples, as Orcadians are just a mix of "Celt" and Scandinavian.
I'm too tired to go through all of the other analysis, but just from this, I think we did pretty well in attribuing ERS389795 to the Anglo Saxon period. not for genetics analysis.
My dear Fire Haired, I yield to none in my respect for the Roman authors; however, my point was
precisely that they knew nothing of genetics, and so their comments about any group being a "pure, distinct, race" are useless. It's like expecting them to be right about the form of the universe. You read them for what they can contribute, not for genetics analysis.