Ancient genomics support deep divergence between Eastern and Western Mediterranean Indo-European languages

Vitruvius said:
Autosomally their admixture proportions are identical to Northern Italians. The two ethnic groups almost certainly originate from either a common or genetically related set of populations in the bronze age that ended up later dividing.
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Interestingly, the Emperor Augustus divided Northern Italy into Transpadana, Venetia et Histria, Liguria and Aemilia.

There was no more mention of Gallia Cisalpina.
 
Vitruvius said:
There was fundamentally at some point a mass replacement of the EBA bell beaker type profiles we see in Po Valley and the Italian Alps with Yamnaya derived introgression which seemingly did not cut deeply into the center of the peninsula until the end of late antiquity and the middle ages.
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So just to get it right. Leaving aside the Cisalpine Gauls - as I'm already familiar with your position - do you think that even the Etruscans left little to no trace in modern Northern Italians' genetic make-up?
 
HereToLearn said:
So just to get it right. Leaving aside the Cisalpine Gauls - as I'm already familiar with your position - do you think that even the Etruscans left little to no trace in modern Northern Italians' genetic make-up?
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The IA Etruscans were much like their IA Latin neighbours, despite the linguistic difference.

Both IA Latins and IA Etruscans had higher WHG than any modern Italian region (excepting modern Sardinia).
 
Since we are talking a handful of points more or less in a calculator besides involving only one component, do we have a dataset complete (and accurate) enough to establish that in a conclusive manner?

And if we don’t descend from the Etruscans either who are our genetic ancestors supposed to be? From where I stand they look pretty mysterious (or anonymous) at this point, some branch of the Illyrians that doesn’t even have a name.

How could they replace genetically a wealthy, powerful and numerous people such as the Etruscans?
 
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HereToLearn said:
Since we are talking a handful of points more or less in a calculator besides involving only one component, do we have a dataset complete (and accurate) enough to establish that in a conclusive manner?

And if we don’t descend from the Etruscans either who are our genetic ancestors supposed to be? From where I stand they look pretty mysterious (or anonymous) at this point, some branch of the Illyrians that doesn’t even have a name.

How could they replace genetically a wealthy, powerful and numerous people such as the Etruscans?
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Posts 18 and 20 above by Vitruvius cover all this well.

We are certainly partly descend from IA Etruscans in modern north and central Italy.

Nobody claims that Etruscans were completely, 100%, superseded by other ethnic groups.
 
I’ve read Vitruvius was referring to a mass replacement in the Po Valley. What’s the scenario? Who are these people? Did they become Etruscans later on?
 
Take a look at this interesting link I found online (ignoring the provocative title):

www.quora.com

How Middle Eastern are Italians in culture, genetics, language, and phenotype?

Answer (1 of 3): In terms of culture, Italians were certainly somewhat influenced across the eras by some aspects of Middle Eastern civilizations in the East Mediterranean coast and in North Africa (for instance, Etruscans famously had an orientalizing period in their art), often via intermediari...
www.quora.com www.quora.com
 
I disagree on so many levels that I’d hijack the thread if I was to comment on that.

“Much of the Italian population, though, is closer to some Middle Easterner populations”

Troll.
 
HereToLearn said:
I disagree on so many levels that I’d hijack the thread if I was to comment on that.

“Much of the Italian population, though, is closer to some Middle Easterner populations”

Troll.
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Only read Ygor Coelho..the first entry... but fully extended to show charts and analysis.

The rest is mainly Apricity-level tat. On that I agree.
 
Vallicanus said:
Interestingly, the Emperor Augustus divided Northern Italy into Transpadana, Venetia et Histria, Liguria and Aemilia.

There was no more mention of Gallia Cisalpina.
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Yes, because the Gauls who had entered Italy 400 years prior were expelled by the Romans during the time of Polybius' writings.
 
HereToLearn said:
So just to get it right. Leaving aside the Cisalpine Gauls - as I'm already familiar with your position - do you think that even the Etruscans left little to no trace in modern Northern Italians' genetic make-up?
Click to expand...

Based off the latest data it's beginning to look like the Etruscans of central Italy and the southern edges of Po Valley were descended from bell beaker derived populations that entered the peninsula in the early bronze age, where as the Picenes and modern northern Italian genetic structure looks much more Yamnaya descended. I would presume Terramare Italics brought caucasian heavy/yamnaya derived ancestry to the area and mixed with and/or displaced the proceeding polada populations (perhaps bell beaker derived). It is very well possible that all of these types (Yamnaya and Bell Beaker descended italics) were considered Etruscans and that the ethnic group formed after the arrival of all such populations. What we do know is that Polybius and Livy both made a point of northern Italy sharing old blood with the Etruscan world and we also know that modern Northern Italy and the Etruscan averages show an unbroken cline of ancestry which decreases in caucasian ancestry and increases in WHG ancestry as we travel south.
 
HereToLearn said:
I’ve read Vitruvius was referring to a mass replacement in the Po Valley. What’s the scenario? Who are these people? Did they become Etruscans later on?
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We are talking the bronze age so the existence of the Etruscan ethnic group as a conscious development very well may not have even occurred when this replacement/genetic shift happened. My vote is still that Terramare brought caucasian heavy yamnaya ancestry in large numbers. There is some funerary evidence of mixing with the preceeding polada population, but the reality is that Terramare were much more numerous comparatively.
 
Ricardo said:
Another "bikini" article - What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital. Steppe ancestry is just a derived spin-off of the Southern movements to the North and the Indo-European original formation can only be investigated with new samples from the South (Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus, Armenia, Caspian Sea, Iran, Mesopotamia), before the creation of the admixed steppe ancestry, before 6000 BCE in the CIHG movements from the South to the North (and vice-versa after the CIHG-EHG-steppe admixtured populations also moving from the North to the South as already admixed groups).
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We do not yet know the Indo-Anatolian homeland, as the linguistic results at that date are inconclusive. We cannot see language from DNA, and you cannot just decide that the southern root brought the Indo-European language to the steppe.
 
Vitruvius said:
Autosomally their admixture proportions are identical to Northern Italians. The two ethnic groups almost certainly originate from either a common or genetically related set of populations in the bronze age that ended up later dividing.
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As you know, I don't agree with you at all on this point, because it is an oversimplification. It is more than one factor, a similar ratio of ancestral components that does not imply a common origin, and then yes, there is also an influence going back to the Final Bronze Age that has something in common with the Proto-Ilyrian populations. The Illyrians, attested relatively late both in the sources and archaeologically, seem to be dominated by J2b-L283, which certainly exists in Italy but is not a dominant marker, and in Italy it arrives long before the Illyrian ethnogenesis was accomplished in the Balkans. Then I would not exclude a role also of the Balkans in the foreign population of imperial Rome. In any case, much less is known about the Illyrians from reading archaeological books than is generally believed. Not to mention the Illyrian language, which has a different origin from the native languages spoken in Italy, except those considered related to Illyrian (attested in Apulia).
 
Vallicanus said:
The IA Etruscans were much like their IA Latin neighbours, despite the linguistic difference.

Both IA Latins and IA Etruscans had higher WHG than any modern Italian region (excepting modern Sardinia).
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The Etruscans are Bell Beaker-derived (probably also the Latins), modeled as if they had been 50% Bell Beaker of Central Europe and 50% Italian Chalcolithic (which is a model that can be done with all populations of Southwestern and Southcentral Europe, just change the first source and choose the local reference Chalcolithic), obviously also with some later influence in the context of movements also attested for other ethnic groups of Preroman Italy (that is, not in the sense of Greek accounts). This derivation from the Bell Beaker was already supported by Prehistoric and Protohistoric archaeologists (thus with the possible Etruscan and Rhaetic languages descended from the culture of Rinaldone and Remedello).

Further conclusions have emerged in archaeology in recent decades, the first being that the boundary of the Etruscan world should be moved as far as Emilia-Romagna, as far as the Enza River if I remember correctly, as to be considered originally Etruscan like the areas of Tuscany, western Umbria, and northern Latium (with Campanian Etruria remaining the result of colonization from Latium instead). Some archaeologists of Prehistory and Protohistory even claim that signs of Etruscan civilization are found even in southern Veneto between the late Bronze Age and early Iron Age, but here it becomes too complex. Moreover, based on the onomastics of Etruscan tombs in northern Latium (nothing similar exists to date for other Etruscan areas), one sees in the Second Iron Age an increasing number of gentiles ("surnames" in the modern sense) that are more attributable to the Etruscan-Italic koine (generally dated from 400 B.C. onward) than to a specific Etruscan or Italic origin. Whether this also had an impact genetically we do not know (we do not know whether these gentiles were due only to a linguistic factor or to movements of Italics assimilated by the Etruscans, on the other hand, Latins being genetically similar to Etruscans would not have changed the Etruscan gene pool).
 
Pax Augusta said:
The Etruscans are Bell Beaker-derived (probably also the Latins), modeled as if they had been 50% Bell Beaker of Central Europe and 50% Italian Chalcolithic (which is a model that can be done with all populations of Southwestern and Southcentral Europe, just change the first source and choose the local reference Chalcolithic), obviously also with some later influence in the context of movements also attested for other ethnic groups of Preroman Italy (that is, not in the sense of Greek accounts). This derivation from the Bell Beaker was already supported by Prehistoric and Protohistoric archaeologists (thus with the possible Etruscan and Rhaetic languages descended from the culture of Rinaldone and Remedello).

Further conclusions have emerged in archaeology in recent decades, the first being that the boundary of the Etruscan world should be moved as far as Emilia-Romagna, as far as the Enza River if I remember correctly, as to be considered originally Etruscan like the areas of Tuscany, western Umbria, and northern Latium (with Campanian Etruria remaining the result of colonization from Latium instead). Some archaeologists of Prehistory and Protohistory even claim that signs of Etruscan civilization are found even in southern Veneto between the late Bronze Age and early Iron Age, but here it becomes too complex. Moreover, based on the onomastics of Etruscan tombs in northern Latium (nothing similar exists to date for other Etruscan areas), one sees in the Second Iron Age an increasing number of gentiles ("surnames" in the modern sense) that are more attributable to the Etruscan-Italic koine (generally dated from 400 B.C. onward) than to a specific Etruscan or Italic origin. Whether this also had an impact genetically we do not know (we do not know whether these gentiles were due only to a linguistic factor or to movements of Italics assimilated by the Etruscans, on the other hand, Latins being genetically similar to Etruscans would not have changed the Etruscan gene pool).
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Are there any G25 or K12b calculators that I can use with these 2 factors...Bell Beaker of Central Europe and Italian Chalcolithic?
 
Vallicanus said:
Are there any G25 or K12b calculators that I can use with these 2 factors...Bell Beaker of Central Europe and Italian Chalcolithic?
Click to expand...

Roughly, with the G25 because it is faster. Results to be taken as indicative only.


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Vallicanus said:
Do you have the G25 co-ordinates that we can use?
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Code: 
Germany_BellBeaker,0.1267361,0.1314234,0.056425,0.0450084,0.0342131,0.015589,0.0013857,0.0028248,0.0052612,0.0047256,-0.0021391,0.0066045,-0.00995,-0.0119733,0.0147936,0.0084674,0.0011195,0.0016164,0.0022886,0.0059339,0.0052794,0.0039825,-0.0026775,-0.0009764,-0.0009911
Italy_C.SG,0.125205,0.179749,0.029793,-0.062985,0.074783,-0.029284,-0.006815,-0.005077,0.048881,0.090207,0.005034,0.013938,-0.028989,-0.003303,-0.018051,-0.002519,0.011213,0.001394,0.005656,-0.01013,0.00836,0.009027,-0.005793,-0.033137,0.003592
 
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