Genetic study Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

[Yetos]

Until someone states what the Dacians spoke before taking up a latin based language then we will never know ......................but since the Bastarnae are based on a Germanic-Celtic mix with later sarmatian added , my guess is Dacian language would be a branch of celtic-thracian

Goths and Bastarnae began in the same area of modern poland ....that is the goths ( gottones ) on both sides of the vistula river delta area where it meets the baltic sea and south of them on the west side of the Vistula river began the Bastarnae ( before they moved )

I supose a good start for the idea of Slavs are these 2 bellow links

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antes_(people)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carantania

Carantania in some Aromani villages means also Black mountain Montenegro Crnagora


the Goths

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogoths

interesting

the last gothic speaker found in Crimea before a century about



Dacian language

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_language

my prsonal believe is Dacian is the basic language upon which later Albanian sprunk nad grow

 

[Dushman]

My hypothesis? I quoted the paper which you obviously didn't read; mainland Greece is 30% Northeastern European ancestry. Also, for all of the numerous samples, don't hold your breath, because it may never happen. I didn't write the paper, so if you have an issue, take it up with them. Also some of you people better start acting like normal human beings, or I going to throw you out of here.

I?ve always quoted you when I asked you about something. I didn?t quote you, therefore it wasn?t directed to you.

Hypotheses is plural for hypothesis, so I was referring to everyone in this topic confidently supporting the idea that 30% is exclusively Slavic.

I definitely read the paper and I?m discussing the possible weaknesses of the paper, not the obvious strengths and the contributions it made for us to better understand what happened through the centuries.

What?s with the subnormal human beings and is that threat directed at me?

 

[Jovialis]

I�ve always quoted you when I asked you about something. I didn�t quote you, therefore it wasn�t directed to you.

Hypotheses is plural for hypothesis, so I was referring to everyone in this topic confidently supporting the idea that 30% is exclusively Slavic.

I definitely read the paper and I�m discussing the possible weaknesses of the paper, not the obvious strengths and the contributions it made for us to better understand what happened through the centuries.

What�s with the subnormal human beings and is that threat directed at me?

Sorry, I thought you were referring to me. When I seems terms like "putting ideas in the grave", it start to manifest into a more hostile atmosphere. Because it starts to sound like vailed-threats.


Also, it was just a general statement, because it seems this thread is becoming less civilized; animal-like. Discussing the weakness and strengths in the paper is fine, that is what this forum is for.

 

[Riverman]

Until someone states what the Dacians spoke before taking up a latin based language then we will never know ......................but since the Bastarnae are based on a Germanic-Celtic mix with later sarmatian added , my guess is Dacian language would be a branch of celtic-thracian

Goths and Bastarnae began in the same area of modern poland ....that is the goths ( gottones ) on both sides of the vistula river delta area where it meets the baltic sea and south of them on the west side of the Vistula river began the Bastarnae ( before they moved )

Dacians were Daco-Thracian people, related especially to the Getae and Moesians, especially with Cimmerian, Scythian and later Celtic influences. But they were still Dacians, one of the main groups from the Daco-Thracian sphere, descendents from the Channelled Ware people. I guess the Dacians would have been paternally mixed, as suggested by the influences they had, but the primary haplogroup should still be E-V13, secondarily Scythian-Cimmerian R1a/R1b, and in some regions in particular, Celtic haplotypes, which were themselves in the East quite mixed and not supposed to have been exclusively R1b at all.

The Bastarnae seem to have been a fairly mixed people, more so than the Dacians. But Dacians lived in the regions for long, like the Costobocci, even after Roman conquest of the main territory of the Dacians:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costoboci

Unfortunately they did cremate fairly late, but I guess both Germanics and Slavs might have picked some E-V13 up from them and some local elements might have survived in the Carpathian zone.

 

[Dushman]

Sorry, I thought you were referring to me. When I seems terms like "putting ideas in the grave", it start to manifest into a more hostile atmosphere. Because it starts to sound like vailed-threats.


Also, it was just a general statement, because it seems this thread is becoming less civilized; animal-like. Discussing the weakness and strengths in the paper is fine, that is what this forum is for.

I assure you I have 0 interest to be hostile towards anyone here or in the internet in general. I?m truly interested and curious to know more about genetics and as a beginner I realized I can be easily confused by contradicting information.

I?ve been misguided so many times by the things I read that now I want to be as close to 99% sure as possible before accepting an hypothesis. As a result I might come across as hostile because I don?t want to fall again on the trap of ?E-V13 is Egyptian, I2a-Din is Illyrian and Cucuteni, J2 is Arab/Anatolian, Early Farmers were not White, R1a is Asian/Mongoloid? etc.

Until you and some others pointed out a few days ago that PCAs do not tell 100% of the story, I was taking the distances in the maps for granted (and I?m sure I still do somehow).

 

[Jovialis]

I assure you I have 0 interest to be hostile towards anyone here or in the internet in general. I�m truly interested and curious to know more about genetics and as a beginner I realized I can be easily confused by contradicting information.
I�ve been misguided so many times by the things I read that now I want to be as close to 99% sure as possible before accepting an hypothesis. As a result I might come across as hostile because I don�t want to fall again on the trap of �E-V13 is Egyptian, I2a-Din is Illyrian and Cucuteni, J2 is Arab/Anatolian, Early Farmers were not White, R1a is Asian/Mongoloid� etc.
Until you and some others pointed out a few days ago that PCAs do not tell 100% of the story, I was taking the distances in the maps for granted (and I�m sure I still do somehow).

I have never held any of those views personally, so you don't have to worry about that coming from me. I more recently speculated that the ancestors of Albanians may have been "south Italian-like" by the virtue of the fact that people like the Myceneans were close to that. This paper seems to validate my speculation with the large amount of Aegean IA, (similar to BA) as a major component of Balkans IA.

 

[Ralphie Boy]

I assure you I have 0 interest to be hostile towards anyone here or in the internet in general. I�m truly interested and curious to know more about genetics and as a beginner I realized I can be easily confused by contradicting information.

I�ve been misguided so many times by the things I read that now I want to be as close to 99% sure as possible before accepting an hypothesis. As a result I might come across as hostile because I don�t want to fall again on the trap of �E-V13 is Egyptian, I2a-Din is Illyrian and Cucuteni, J2 is Arab/Anatolian, Early Farmers were not White, R1a is Asian/Mongoloid� etc.

Until you and some others pointed out a few days ago that PCAs do not tell 100% of the story, I was taking the distances in the maps for granted (and I�m sure I still do somehow).

The I2a-Dinaric theory can be put in the trash receptacle, as evidence is strong that this haplogroup was brought to the Balkans pretty much exclusively by Slavs. It’s not indigenous to the Balkans.

As a layperson who never toyed with amateur gene modelers like G25, I too have to be careful when seeing them. For example, there is an Anthro-type model of modern mainland Greeks that shows them to be more Anatolia MLBA-like than Empuries and Mycenaeans. What is this based on, the rumor that some classical Greeks are Cyprus/Anatolia-like? That leaves out a lot of other Greeks, and is not based on any published data. It looks like an assumption. Plus, the Peloponnese study shows those Greeks do not have much Asia Minor admixture. That was part of the theory that Asia Minor people were brought to replace the Greeks who disappeared after the Slavic invasions.

 

[D.L.M]

The I2a-Dinaric theory can be put in the trash receptacle, as evidence is strong that this haplogroup was brought to the Balkans pretty much exclusively by Slavs. It’s not indigenous to the Balkans.

As a layperson who never toyed with amateur gene modelers like G25, I too have to be careful when seeing them. For example, there is an Anthro-type model of modern mainland Greeks that shows them to be more Anatolia MLBA-like than Empuries and Mycenene. What is this based on, the rumor that some classical Greeks are Cyprus/Anatolia-like? That leaves out a lot of other Greeks, and is not based on any published data. It looks like an assumption. Plus, the Peloponnese study shows those Greeks do not have much Asia Minor admixture. That was part of the theory that Asia Minor people were brought to replace the Greeks who disappeared after the Slavic invasions.

Using Apulians as a source pre-Slavic era (400-500AD) northern Greeks, which can be accurate you get 35% Slovene, slightly above 5% Armenian-like ancestry and +55% Apulian.

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Greek_Macedonia
Distance: 1.2096% / 0.01209610[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]58.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Italian_Apulia[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]35.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Slovenian[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]6.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Armenian[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.9314% / 0.01931411
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]54.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]CZE_Early_Slav[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]32.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]BGR_IA[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]13.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Armenian[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Greek_Macedonia
Distance: 2.0262% / 0.02026183

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]43.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]BGR_IA[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]35.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]CZE_Early_Slav[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]20.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Armenian[/TD]

 

[Jovialis]

The I2a-Dinaric theory can be put in the trash receptacle, as evidence is strong that this haplogroup was brought to the Balkans pretty much exclusively by Slavs. It’s not indigenous to the Balkans.

As a layperson who never toyed with amateur gene modelers like G25, I too have to be careful when seeing them. For example, there is an Anthro-type model of modern mainland Greeks that shows them to be more Anatolia MLBA-like than Empuries and Mycenaeans. What is this based on, the rumor that some classical Greeks are Cyprus/Anatolia-like? That leaves out a lot of other Greeks, and is not based on any published data. It looks like an assumption. Plus, the Peloponnese study shows those Greeks do not have much Asia Minor admixture. That was part of the theory that Asia Minor people were brought to replace the Greeks who disappeared after the Slavic invasions.

We are not talking about amateur calculator though, it is the modeling from the Reich Lab study; specifically Balkan_IA + Kuline Cluster, which is what is used to describe modern Balkan genetics.


Greeks did not disappear, and were not replaced by Asia Minor people or anyone else. This never happened, according to the study, and I am happy to see this viscous canard be repudiated. Nevertheless, I am sure the lie will still live on, in the realm of stupidity. This study demonstrates that Greeks continued to exist, after the cosmopolitan elements went extinct. It was only until the middle ages, that only about 30% of their autosomal DNA was augmented by Northeastern European ancestry in the mainland, and 20-7% in the Islands. Frankly, I am surprised by 20% in the Greek islands, but I guess it must have affected some Islands more than others. This is genetic continuity in my book, nonetheless; even for as much as 30%.


Besides, it is not like being admixed with something radically different like Eskimos, or Aboriginal Australians; Northeastern Europeans, and Ancient Greeks do share overlapping source populations, albeit at different rates.

 

[Dushman]

We are not talking about amateur calculator though, it is the modeling from the Reich Lab study; specifically Balkan_IA + Kuline Cluster, which is what is used to describe modern Balkan genetics.

This study demonstrates that Greeks continued to exist, after the cosmopolitan elements went extinct. It was only until the middle ages, that only about 30% of their autosomal DNA was augmented by Northeastern European ancestry in the mainland, and 20-7% in the Islands. Frankly, I am surprised by 20% in the Greek islands, but I guess it must have affected some Islands more than others. This is genetic continuity in my book, nonetheless; even for as much as 30%.

1) Can you please clarify something for me? Reich Lab used the Kuline Cluster as a proxy for the Northeastern Europeans/Slavs?

If that?s the case then it?s a problematic model because the Kuline samples were over 50% Balkan IA, thus leaving around 20-25% Northeastern input.

[FONT=&quot]The Kuline individuals are more shifted towards present-day Slavic-speaking populations as compared to individuals in the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Central/Northern European[/FONT][FONT=&quot] cluster, agreeing with the presence of Y-chromosome lineage I2-L621 in Kuline, which is common in present-day Slavic-speaking groups and absent in earlier periods.


2) Who are these modern Slavic-speaking populations? They better left out Poles, Czechs, and Slovaks and included only Ukrainians and Belarusians for instance, otherwise it?s misleading.

3) They used the words ???more shifted? which does not mean is fully shifted only in 1 direction but rather there could be more Northeastern ancestry than Central/Northern. Again, very misleading.

In light of these results, we modeled the ancestry of the Kuline individuals as a mixture of 56% deriving from the local Balkan Iron Age substratum and 44% deriving from Northeastern European Iron Age groups, and obtained a good statistical fit ([/FONT]Figure 2[FONT=&quot]; Supplementary section 12.8).
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
4) Who are these Northeastern European Iron Age Groups that provided a good statistical fit with a 44% contribution in the Balkans? Sarmatians? Scythians?

P.S. Regarding the 7-20% in the Aegean islands, for now I?m only willing to accept that they received 7-20% Kuline-like admixture, not ?undiluted? Northeastern admixture straight from the source. More like 3-8.8% of Northeastern (mainly) as well as slightly older Central/Northern already present in the Balkans.

This paper?s conclusions stink. The older Peloponnese paper that I read months ago came up with a maximum of 14% Polish-like admixture in Peloponnese, which is for me personally understandable considering that using Poland kills 2 birds with 1 stone since it could include both Slavic, Gothic, and other older Carpathian related ancestries during the Imperial period.

I?m again going to trust my eyes on this too. I can?t picture a Cretan or islander being 1/5th Russian.

A South-Eastern Albanian? Yes, sure, in accordance with the settlement of Bulgarians and Vlachs, elevated R1a and I2a-Din North up to 30%, rounder heads and facial features, smaller noses, as well as more fair hair and eyes. It cannot be a coincidence.

You go West and North from there, the features get immediately more Mediterranid/Dinarid, with Slavic Y-DNA ranging from 3-10%. [/FONT]

 

[Bill7]

I have to agree with the other users here the authors seem to have done a poor job modelling modern balkan people.Why would they ever use ancient Greeks as a proxy to calculate the pre slavic component in modern South slavs??? Why aren't they at the very least using the Iron age Bulgarian sample, the HRV samples and some of the scythian Moldovan samples which were clearly of balkan origins??And then they are using mordovians to measure the northeastern European component instead of Ukrainians or Bellarussians who seem to be the "purest" slavs around

 

[Dushman]

I have to agree with the other users here the authors seem to have done a poor job modelling modern balkan people.Why would they ever use ancient Greeks as a proxy to calculate the pre slavic component in modern South slavs??? Why aren't they at the very least using the Iron age Bulgarian sample, the HRV samples and some of the scythian Moldovan samples which were clearly of balkan origins??And then they are using mordovians to measure the northeastern European component instead of Ukrainians or Bellarussians who seem to be the "purest" slavs around

As a Mediterranean person raised in a corrupt Balkan country, the thought of bribing scientists to make your people appear as Slavic as possible comes so naturally to me Lol

Jokes aside, being a person with a Finance background and hobbies in gym and gaming, even I managed to logically analyse the situation and pinpoint what appear to me as obvious weaknesses. I?m no historian either, but I?ve read enough articles and played few Total War games to know how the Dacians, Scythians, Goths, Huns, Avars, etc. attacked the Danubian lines for centuries, settled in Pannonia, Moesia, and Thrace, as well as forced Rome to resettle many defeated tribes in the Balkans to use them as recruits.

It takes literally maximum 1 hour to refresh your memory on the Imperial Roman history, and Wikipedia articles suffice.

They even show the map with the pie charts where Albania clearly has 40% Northeastern European admixture, almost if not as high as the Kuline samples. I mean look at the Albanian football team and compare it to Croatia or Hungary.

 

[Bill7]

As a Mediterranean person raised in a corrupt Balkan country, the thought of bribing scientists to make your people appear as Slavic as possible comes so naturally to me Lol
Jokes aside, being a person with a Finance background and hobbies in gym and gaming, even I managed to logically analyse the situation and pinpoint what appear to me as obvious weaknesses. I�m no historian either, but I�ve read enough articles and played few Total War games to know how the Dacians, Scythians, Goths, Huns, Avars, etc. attacked the Danubian lines for centuries, settled in Pannonia, Moesia, and Thrace, as well as forced Rome to resettle many defeated tribes in the Balkans to use them as recruits.
It takes literally maximum 1 hour to refresh your memory on the Imperial Roman history, and Wikipedia articles suffice.
They even show the map with the pie charts where Albania clearly has 40% Northeastern European admixture, almost if not as high as the Kuline samples. I mean look at the Albanian football team and compare it to Croatia or Hungary.

Anyone who is familiar with Byzantine history knows that after the Romans recaptured Greece they pretty much killed or expelled all the slavs they found with maybe few surviving pockets remaining here and there. The same can be told for Albania especially the North where the slavs couldn't settle due to the mountainous terrain of the area.

So I can't see how the slavs had the affect this paper claims to have. Also I'm studying philology so I have quite good knowledge of Greek and Balakn history

 

[Southpaw]

I think approximately ~20-25% Slavic input among Albanians and Northern Greeks make sense, it's more reasonable, in some cases up to ~30%. Otherwise the ancient Balkan samples clustering closer with Italians would not make sense.

 

[td120]

Anyone who is familiar with Byzantine history knows that after the Romans recaptured Greece they pretty much killed or expelled all the slavs they found with maybe few surviving pockets remaining here and there.

Hmm, very interesting...and when was that?

 

[Yetos]

As a Mediterranean person raised in a corrupt Balkan country, the thought of bribing scientists to make your people appear as Slavic as possible comes so naturally to me Lol

Jokes aside, being a person with a Finance background and hobbies in gym and gaming, even I managed to logically analyse the situation and pinpoint what appear to me as obvious weaknesses. I�m no historian either, but I�ve read enough articles and played few Total War games to know how the Dacians, Scythians, Goths, Huns, Avars, etc. attacked the Danubian lines for centuries, settled in Pannonia, Moesia, and Thrace, as well as forced Rome to resettle many defeated tribes in the Balkans to use them as recruits.

It takes literally maximum 1 hour to refresh your memory on the Imperial Roman history, and Wikipedia articles suffice.

They even show the map with the pie charts where Albania clearly has 40% Northeastern European admixture, almost if not as high as the Kuline samples. I mean look at the Albanian football team and compare it to Croatia or Hungary.[/QUOTΕ]


I want to avoid this thread

But if you speak of Dacians then you must also findout about about Germidava, and General Maniakis.

 

[Dushman]

I think approximately ~20-25% Slavic input among Albanians and Northern Greeks make sense, it's more reasonable, in some cases up to ~30%. Otherwise the ancient Balkan samples clustering closer with Italians would not make sense.

I personally believe that it?s max 20% and it consists of Dacians/Free Dacians + Celts + Germanics and whoever the Goths absorbed + Slavs, not exclusively Slavic.

In my amateur opinion, North Albanians seem more North-West shifted than East shifted whereas South Albanians more South East (East Med) shifted than East European.

If we?re 30% solely Slavic, than what?s the percentage of Germanic and East Med? Anyone has some reliable data? I?d truly like to have a look because that would make Albanians only almost half Balkan IA.

 

[torzio]

I supose a good start for the idea of Slavs are these 2 bellow links

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antes_(people)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carantania

Carantania in some Aromani villages means also Black mountain Montenegro Crnagora


the Goths

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogoths

interesting

the last gothic speaker found in Crimea before a century about



Dacian language

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_language

my prsonal believe is Dacian is the basic language upon which later Albanian sprunk nad grow

no idea why you added slavs

 

[D.L.M]

I have to agree with the other users here the authors seem to have done a poor job modelling modern balkan people.Why would they ever use ancient Greeks as a proxy to calculate the pre slavic component in modern South slavs??? Why aren't they at the very least using the Iron age Bulgarian sample, the HRV samples and some of the scythian Moldovan samples which were clearly of balkan origins??And then they are using mordovians to measure the northeastern European component instead of Ukrainians or Bellarussians who seem to be the "purest" slavs around

But they aren't using ancient Greek samples to calculate the Slavic admixture of Balkan Slavs. They are actually using Late Roman Age samples from Serbia.

 

[Bill7]

But they aren't using ancient Greek samples to calculate the Slavic admixture of Balkan Slavs. They are actually using Late Roman Age samples from Serbia.

If is it easy can you send the link of the study?? I remember they used the empuries samples to calculate the native admixture