An analysis of Scandinavian Y-DNA

[Maciamo]

I have just updated the Y-DNA frequencies for Denmark, Sweden and Norway. The sample sizes are now respectively 613, 1323 and 2826, including the FTDNA projects for each country. I didn't use the data from the Scandinavian DNA Project and the Viking DNA Project as I didn't feel like checking for duplicates.

Compared to the older data, the percentage of I1 and R1a have increased in Denmark, while R1b and Q have diminished. In Norway and Sweden I1 decreased while R1b increased. I2b (or I2a2 now) increased everywhere.

Apart from one J1 sample in western Norway and one T in Denmark, haplogroups J1 and T seem to be completely absent from Scandinavia.

I have noticed a few interesting new pattern in the distribution of some haplogroups. For a start, haplogroups E1b1b and J2 seem to be completely absent from the southern tips of both Norway and Sweden (as confirmed by the major papers by Dupuy et al. 2005, Karlsson et al. 2006 and FTDNA data). Both haplogroups are found in more central regions. Haplogroup E in Sweden and Norway appears to be exclusively E-V13 (also mostly in Denmark although at least one E-M123 was found).

The almost reverse pattern can be observed for haplogroup G2a, which is is found in southern Sweden and west coast of Norway (roughly between Stavanger and Ålesund). In Scandinavia G2a seems to be exclusively the Indo-European G2a3b1, which I have linked to the diffusion of R1b since the Bronze Age. Those who tested for deep clades were L42+ (G2a3b1a2a). The other G2a subclades linked to the Neolithic farmers have not been found in Scandinavia. This can mean two things:

1) the Neolithic farmers, such as those identified by Skoglund et al. 2012 and who were autosomally West Asian, did not belong to G2a like in other Neolithic sites in Europe, but probably more to E-V13.

2) those Neolithic farmers did belong to G2a, but were wiped out by Bronze Age invaders.

It is easy to see how G2ab1a came alongside R1b as it is found mostly where R1b peaks in Scandinavia. The question is how and when did E-V13 and J2 come to Scandinavia. Several possibilities again:

1) E-V13 and/or J2 came during the Neolithic and were pushed inland by Bronze Age invaders from the south.

2) All Neolithic lineages were wiped out, in which case E-V13 an J2 came during the Bronze Age and/or Iron Age. Considering that E-V13 and J2 are found in parts of Norway and Sweden where R1b is the lowest, they could have come during the Corded Ware period after being assimilated by R1a people during the advance through Poland and Germany before reaching Scandinavia.

3) E-V13 and J2 are medieval or post-medieval lineages of German, British, French or other European origin.


Haplogroup Q is found mostly in Gotland and in Götaland in Sweden, where it both makes up 4% of the male lineages. It is frequency decreases with the distance from Götaland and falls to a mere 1% in Denmark and Norway. All Scandinavian Q appears to be Q1a3(a), the same as the one found in Iron Age Hunnic sites.

In my opinion Q1a3 came to southern Sweden with the Huns. Gotland and Götaland is the presumed homeland of the ancient Goths. Some Goths migrated to Poland and Ukraine, while others stayed in Sweden. The Huns conquered the Goths in the Pontic Steppe in the 4th century, forcing some of them to flee the Dnieper region and settled in the Eastern Roman Empire (Balkans). It would not be improbable that some Goths and Huns moved back to southern Sweden, either before invading the Roman Empire, or after the fall of the Western Roman Empire, displaced by the Slavic migrations to Central Europe. After all, even ancient people kept the nostalgia of their ancestral homeland and knew exactly where their ancestors a few hundreds years earlier came from.

[Sile]

I have just updated the Y-DNA frequencies for Denmark, Sweden and Norway. The sample sizes are now respectively 613, 1323 and 2826, including the FTDNA projects for each country. I didn't use the data from the Scandinavian DNA Project and the Viking DNA Project as I didn't feel like checking for duplicates. Compared to the older data, the percentage of I1 and R1a have increased in Denmark, while R1b and Q have diminished. In Norway and Sweden I1 decreased while R1b increased.

Apart from one J1 sample in western Norway and one T in Denmark, haplogroups J1 and T seem to be completely absent from Scandinavia.

I have noticed a few interesting new pattern in the distribution of some haplogroups. For a start, haplogroups E1b1b and J2 seem to be completely absent from the southern tips of both Norway and Sweden (as confirmed by the major papers by Dupuy et al. 2005, Karlsson et al. 2006 and FTDNA data). Both haplogroups are found in more central regions. Haplogroup E in Sweden and Norway appears to be exclusively E-V13 (whereas at least one E-M123 was found in Denmark).

The almost reverse pattern can be observed for haplogroup G2a, which is is found in southern Sweden and west coast of Norway (roughly between Stavanger and Ålesund). In Scandinavia G2a seems to be exclusively the Indo-European G2a3b1, which I have linked to the diffusion of R1b since the Bronze Age. Those who tested for deep clades were L42+ (G2a3b1a2a). The other G2a subclades linked to the Neolithic farmers have not been found in Scandinavia. This can mean two things:

1) the Neolithic farmers, such as those identified by Skoglund et al. 2012 and who were autosomally West Asian, did not belong to G2a like in other Neolithic sites in Europe, but probably more to E-V13.

2) those Neolithic farmers did belong to G2a, but were wiped out by Bronze Age invaders.

It is easy to see how G2ab1a came alongside R1b as it is found mostly where R1b peaks in Scandinavia. The question is how and when did E-V13 and J2 come to Scandinavia. Several possibilities again:

1) E-V13 and/or J2 came during the Neolithic and were pushed inland by Bronze Age invaders from the south.

2) All Neolithic lineages were wiped out, in which case E-V13 an J2 came during the Bronze Age and/or Iron Age. Considering that E-V13 and J2 are found in parts of Norway and Sweden where R1b is the lowest, they could have come during the Corded Ware period after being assimilated by R1a people during the advance through Poland and Germany before reaching Scandinavia.

3) E-V13 and J2 are medieval or post-medieval lineages of German, British, French or other European origin.

Are you taking company data in from companies, ie Ftdna etc?




Распространение гаплогрупп в Denmark

Haplogroup	Amount
I1	69
R1b	58
I2	24
R1a	10
G	7
J2	5
E1b	5
N1	3
T	2

norway
Распространение гаплогрупп в Norway

Haplogroup	Amount
I1	182
R1a	122
R1b	119
N1	25
I2	25
G	9
Q	8
E1b	6
J2	5
J1	4
T	2

Sweden
Распространение гаплогрупп в Sweden

Haplogroup	Amount
I1	176
R1b	106
R1a	55
N1	40
I2	12
Q	12
E1b	8
G	6
J2	4
J1	2

Finland

N1	826
I1	362
R1a	59
R1b	45
I2	7
E1b	6
J2	3
G	3
Q	2
J1	2
T	1
A	1

[Maciamo]

Here is an analysis of R1a subclades in Scandinavia.

R1a subclades	Norway	Sweden	TOTAL
R1a-L664 (West European)	7x	3x	10x (5%)
R1a-Z284 (Scandinavian)	153x	20x	173x (89.5%)
R1a-M458 (Proto-Slavic)	1x	4x	5x (2.5%)
R1a-Z280 (Balto-Slavic)	2x	2x	4x (2%)
R1a-Z93 (Indo-Iranian)	0x	1x	1x (0.5%)

Norway

7x R1a-L664
153x R1a-Z284 (including 12x Z284*, 53x L448+ and 70x Z287+)
1x R1a-M458 (L260-)
2x R1a-Z280 (both CTS3402+)

Sweden

3x R1a-L664
20x R1a-Z284 (including 3x L448+ and 7x Z287+)
4x R1a-M458 (including 2x L1029+ and 1x L260+)
2x R1a-Z280
1x R1a-Z93

Denmark

Not enough data on R1a subclades.


And here is the breakdown of R1b subclades.

R1b subclades	Norway	Sweden	Denmark	TOTAL
R1b-M269(xP312,U106) (Proto-IE)	2x	0x	5x	7x (4%)
R1b-U106/S21 (Germanic)	43x	27x	7x	77x (44%)
R1b-P312/S116 (Celto-Germanic)	55x	26x	9x	90x (52%)
R1b-L21 (Atlantic Celtic)	24x	8x	0x	32x (18.5%)
R1b-U152/S28 (Italo-Celtic)	6x	6x	1x	13x (7.5%)

Norway

2x R1b-L23
43x R1b-U106 (S21)
55x R1b-P312 (S116), including:
- 24x R1b-L21
- 6x R1b-U152 (S28)
- 3x R1b-DF27
- 14x R1b-L238

Sweden

27x R1b-U106 (S21)
26x R1b-P312 (S116), including:
- 8x R1b-L21
- 6x R1b-U152 (S28)

Denmark

2x R1b-L23
3x R1b-P310 (L11)
7x R1b-U106 (S21)
9x R1b-P312 (S116), including:
- 1x R1b-U152 (S28)

[Maciamo]

Are you taking company data in from companies, ie Ftdna etc?

Распространение гаплогрупп в Denmark
...

Where does this data come from ?

[Sile]

Where does this data come from ?

From what I see, they only get data from FtDna and ysearch

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/


Unsure if it will benefit you

[Fire Haired]

the Neolithic farmers, such as those identified by Skoglund et al. 2012 and who were autosomally West Asian

Maciamo that is tricky wording. Gok4 5,000 year old farmer from Sweden was very very little west asian. in globe13 he was '

Med: 64.2%
NOrth Euro(Hunter gather Mesloithic-Paleoithic European)=28.1%
southwest asian:7.6%
west asian:0%

His results in not just globe13 but other tests show he is extremely similar to Otzie 5,300ybp farmer from alps Italy who had Y Dna G2a2a2 L91. They obviously had a similar origin and southwest Asian is higher than west asian. And when u say auotsumly u think u should mention what test. That can easily trick people. There can be many explanations for how G2a and E V13 are spread out in Scandinavia. I am deifntley sure the migration of proto German speakers or whatever u want to call it with mainly R1b S21 and some I2a2a M223 from native central Europeans they probably brought some G2a and E V13 from central Europe with them and would have changed how y dna is spread out in Scandinavia mainly southern alot.

THe Y DNA of Cardiel people in southwestern Europe and LBK people showed G2a then Otzie. Then the extremley similar aust dna results in so many diff tests of otzie and 5,000 year old farmer in south swedan. It seems farming in at least western Europe was spread by farmers who came from the same father culture and were a race i dont mean like a huge race white and black.

[Fire Haired]

It is easy to see how G2ab1a came alongside R1b as it is found mostly where R1b peaks in Scandinavia.

This could be because only southern Scandnavia was in the action for Neloithic and bronze age. While northern Scandnavians stayed as hunter gathers. Which is probably why Sami and Finnish have the highest in globe13 of Paleoithic-Mesloithic European group NOrth Euro. and why they are the closest modern relatives to 7,000ybp hunter gather la brana in Spain and two 5,000 year old hunter gathers in south sweden.

[Fire Haired]

E-V13 and/or J2 came during the Neolithic and were pushed inland by Bronze Age invaders from the south.

I dont think there are enough samples to say stuff like that. The super small minority of J2 and E V13 in Sweden and Norway under the vast majority I1 with some R1a Z284 from proto Balto Slavic speaking Corded ware culture. If they ran up north I1 and r1a Z284 went with them. I think they were just assimilated with new R1b S21 and I2a2a M223 so they became even less popular plus there are not enough samples to say it is non existent.

[Fire Haired]

Haplogroup Q is found mostly in Gotland and in Götaland in Sweden, where it both makes up 4% of the male lineages. It is frequency decreases with the distance from Götaland and falls to a mere 1% in Denmark and Norway. All Scandinavian Q appears to be Q1a3(a), the same as the one found in Iron Age Hunnic sites.

In my opinion Q1a3 came to southern Sweden with the Huns. Gotland and Götaland is the presumed homeland of the ancient Goths. Some Goths migrated to Poland and Ukraine, while others stayed in Sweden. The Huns conquered the Goths in the Pontic Steppe in the 4th century, forcing some of them to flee the Dnieper region and settled in the Eastern Roman Empire (Balkans). It would not be improbable that some Goths and Huns moved back to southern Sweden, either before invading the Roman Empire, or after the fall of the Western Roman Empire, displaced by the Slavic migrations to Central Europe. After all, even ancient people kept the nostalgia of their ancestral homeland and knew exactly where their ancestors a few hundreds years earlier came from.

Totally agree but did the huns every really make huge invasions in southern Scandinavia.

[Nobody1]

Maciamo that is tricky wording. Gok4 5,000 year old farmer from Sweden was very very little west asian. in globe13 he was '

Med: 64.2%
NOrth Euro(Hunter gather Mesloithic-Paleoithic European)=28.1%
southwest asian:7.6%
west asian:0%

His results in not just globe13 but other tests show he is extremely similar to Otzie 5,300ybp farmer from alps Italy who had Y Dna G2a2a2 L91.

You do know that Gök4 was a female?
So "His" results are Her results;
And i wouldnt expect her to have a Y-DNA Hg;

Skoglund et al 2012 - p.6 [supp. material]
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/su...koglund.SM.pdf

Also p.58 is interesting something about Sardinians having a close ancestry to madame Gök4;

[Fire Haired]

You do know that Gök4 was a female?
So "His" results are Her results;
And i wouldnt expect her to have a Y-DNA Hg;

Skoglund et al 2012 - p.6 [supp. material]
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/su...koglund.SM.pdf

Also p.58 is interesting something about Sardinians having a close ancestry to madame Gök4;

That is the exact argument i was making. The farmers that went to swedan were the same G2a farmers that started Cariedl culture and LBK and spread farming throughout western Europe maybe all of Europe.

[Sile]

Where does this data come from ?

I forgot to mention that Semargl automatically accept data IF the tester has tested for 67 markers or more, less than that it is never accepted. So all records would normally be less but would increase as it accepts all testing companies.

[Maciamo]

Totally agree but did the huns every really make huge invasions in southern Scandinavia.

Not that we know because there is no recorded history of this period in Scandinavia.

[Fire Haired]

Maciamo what else about the history of y DNA in Scandinavia. Do u think N1c1 arrived with Uralic languages and Kunda culture 8,000ybp or so. Or do u think it came earlier and it makes sense it is connected with the Mongliod groups in so many aust dna tests Finnish get. Do u also think that could mean the first Uralic speakers lived east of the ural mountains and were Mongliod.

Do u think I1a came first so 11,000-9,000ybp. R1a Z284 and all other R1a coming with Corded ware culture 5,000-4,000ybp which also spoke proto Balto Slavic. R1b S21 (some R1b P312) and all other R1b coming with Nordic Bronze age culture 4,000-3,5000ybp and proto Germanic languages or later contact with Celts like the high amount R1b L21 in Iceland and western Norway. Mesloithic central European i2a2 coming with R1b S21, P312. G2a, J1, J2, and E V13 all either Neolithic or were brought over by Corded ware culture, Nordic bronze age culture, or just random inter marriage.

If u think about it if u go by the idea y DNa I1 is only 5,000 years old and like what i have heard other people say it spread out of the Baltic's with Corded ware culture which is insane. That would mean almost no Y DNa is left in Swedan and Norway that was there 5,000ybp. Doesn't that sound a little crazy when u get into central Sweden and Norway Nordic bronze age culture and Corded ware culture were only in the south and Uralic culture from what i know were never there. So why couldn't they have had I1a why is I1a is highest the more north u go in Swedan and Norway and the farther away from the Germanic center in the south which is a big reason i dis agree with ur Germanic Y DNA map.

[Fire Haired]

Also Maciamo Britain and Ireland seem to have a extremely recent history in Y DNA. Forget about England and really all fo BRitain when trying to figure out what Britain and Ireland had 2,000ybp. Ireland, wales, and highlands of Scotland are the best examples. So Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a2 P312 almost only under R1b1a2a1a2c L21 would be about 80-95%. Then with I2a2a1 M284 also brought over from Celtic invasions about 4,000-4,500ybp would be about 3-7%. Then there would be at the most at average 1% I2a1b3 L161.1 which most likely is from the pre Celtic bronze age invasion so from the native Neolithic people. I don't know that much about their G2a, E1b1b, J1, and J2 subclades some could also be Neolithic defintley the G2a.

The Celts completely massacred the native Neolithic people that is the only explanation i can think off almost non of their Paternal lines survived. This is way worse than what Spanish did in south and central America. I think there is a chance Modern Irish ancestry is almost only from those Celtic invaders meaning the Neolithic people could have been almost put to extinction. It also shows no Mesolithic or Paleolithic y DNA in the British isles. When was the first major human settlement in the British isles same time as Scandinavia 11,000-9,000ybp. Who ever those settlers were they probably were killed off by the farmers. I think it is pretty obvious since the aust group that is so dominate in Neolithic European samples in globe13 which is called med. Is so popular in modern Europeans and that hg I is so rare that the hunter gathers and farmers competed and the farmers won which is why it spread. They i think partly conquered hunter gathers what do u think?

[Maciamo]

I dont think there are enough samples to say stuff like that. The super small minority of J2 and E V13 in Sweden and Norway under the vast majority I1 with some R1a Z284 from proto Balto Slavic speaking Corded ware culture. If they ran up north I1 and r1a Z284 went with them. I think they were just assimilated with new R1b S21 and I2a2a M223 so they became even less popular plus there are not enough samples to say it is non existent.

The sample size for Sweden and Norway is among the best available for any country on earth compared to the population size. We have over 4000 samples for 6 million men living in these countries, which means 1 sample for 1,500 men. To have an equally high resolution in Britain, France or Italy we would need 20,000 samples. For Russia we would need 40,000 samples. For China, no less than 400,000 samples.

So I think that the absence of E1b1b and J2 in southern Norway and Sweden on my maps is justified. If that isn't accurate enough than practically nothing on any haplogroup distribution map is any more accurate.

[Maciamo]

Also Maciamo Britain and Ireland seem to have a extremely recent history in Y DNA. Forget about England and really all fo BRitain when trying to figure out what Britain and Ireland had 2,000ybp. Ireland, wales, and highlands of Scotland are the best examples. So Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a2 P312 almost only under R1b1a2a1a2c L21 would be about 80-95%. Then with I2a2a1 M284 also brought over from Celtic invasions about 4,000-4,500ybp would be about 3-7%. Then there would be at the most at average 1% I2a1b3 L161.1 which most likely is from the pre Celtic bronze age invasion so from the native Neolithic people. I don't know that much about their G2a, E1b1b, J1, and J2 subclades some could also be Neolithic defintley the G2a.

The Celts completely massacred the native Neolithic people that is the only explanation i can think off almost non of their Paternal lines survived. This is way worse than what Spanish did in south and central America. I think there is a chance Modern Irish ancestry is almost only from those Celtic invaders meaning the Neolithic people could have been almost put to extinction. It also shows no Mesolithic or Paleolithic y DNA in the British isles. When was the first major human settlement in the British isles same time as Scandinavia 11,000-9,000ybp. Who ever those settlers were they probably were killed off by the farmers. I think it is pretty obvious since the aust group that is so dominate in Neolithic European samples in globe13 which is called med. Is so popular in modern Europeans and that hg I is so rare that the hunter gathers and farmers competed and the farmers won which is why it spread. They i think partly conquered hunter gathers what do u think?

Yes, I agree that there is very little pre-Celtic Y-DNA in the British Isles. The Megalithic builders did indeed appear to have been for the greatest part wiped out (at least for the men).

[Ladejarl]

Sorry - probably off-topic...

[hubbardhf]

I joined this community because I am very interested in genetics and human migration. That said, I have a question that maybe someone can help me with. My mtDNA is H2A5, my y-DNA is E-V32 (E1b1b1a1a2). I did the genome mapping from National Geographic. My question is this; I know that my ancestry is all northern European, mostly from England, Scandinavia, Eastern & even some Southern European... Why would I have E-V32 if it's mostly prevalent in the Horn of Africa? I am new at understanding these things so please forgive my ignorance. It seems like most other people that are from where my ancestors are have much different Y-DNA groups. Any help in understanding this would be grateful, I just haven't found much about migration of E-V32 into Europe, so how is that my lineage?

The entire sequence is: P305; M42; M168; M203; M96; P147; P177; P2; M215; V68; V12; V32.

[Angela]

I joined this community because I am very interested in genetics and human migration. That said, I have a question that maybe someone can help me with. My mtDNA is H2A5, my y-DNA is E-V32 (E1b1b1a1a2). I did the genome mapping from National Geographic. My question is this; I know that my ancestry is all northern European, mostly from England, Scandinavia, Eastern & even some Southern European... Why would I have E-V32 if it's mostly prevalent in the Horn of Africa? I am new at understanding these things so please forgive my ignorance. It seems like most other people that are from where my ancestors are have much different Y-DNA groups. Any help in understanding this would be grateful, I just haven't found much about migration of E-V32 into Europe, so how is that my lineage?

The entire sequence is: P305; M42; M168; M203; M96; P147; P177; P2; M215; V68; V12; V32.

Please see this:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1b_Y-DNA.shtml

These threads provide differing points of view:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-V13-originate

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ht=E-V13+Italy

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-V13-a-mystery


If you then have further questions, don't hesitate to ask. Welcome, by the way. :)

[Beowulf]

Not that we know because there is no recorded history of this period in Scandinavia.

The Heruli "returned" to Scandinavia in 510, according to written Roman sources. As they were closely connected to both the Goths and the Huns on the continent, they may have been carrying the haplogroup Q in their group.

[hubbardhf]

Angela, thanks a lot! I did peruse through this site and I see a lot referencing V-13 in Europe but not much on V-12 in Europe. Again, I am new at this and I know there are still a lot of studies. I am just surprised that given my recent ancestry (all northern European), that I would have shared such a relatively recent common ancestry with a strong East African strain, the E-V32. Does this mean that a small percentage of the descendants of the original E-V32 moved north into Europe rather recently? Fascinating stuff... Again, thanks for your help and welcoming post!!

[Angela]

Angela, thanks a lot! I did peruse through this site and I see a lot referencing V-13 in Europe but not much on V-12 in Europe. Again, I am new at this and I know there are still a lot of studies. I am just surprised that given my recent ancestry (all northern European), that I would have shared such a relatively recent common ancestry with a strong East African strain, the E-V32. Does this mean that a small percentage of the descendants of the original E-V32 moved north into Europe rather recently? Fascinating stuff... Again, thanks for your help and welcoming post!!

Have you looked at this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#E-V32

The only E-V32 I see is in Andalusia, but there's no way of knowing if it's present in other areas as well, considering how little of the population has been sampled.

However, as you can see, all these E-M78 clades are present throughout Mediterranean Europe.

The bottom line is that these are all related clades, so the same processes could explain a lot of them. It could be very old in your area (Neolithic) or it could have come in historic times. If it did come in historic times it could have come with a man from Mediterranean Europe.

Is there anything different about your autosomal dna compared to people in your area?

The other avenue you might explore is getting tested at and joining a group at FTDNA. If you find that you belong to a cluster or hotspot from a certain area that might give you some more clues.

[hubbardhf]

Just strange... I sent my sample into NG Genome project and although their "recent" (regional as they put it) ancestry is on the money, in order, UK 58%, Eastern European 19%, Southern Europe (?) 12%, Scandanavia 10%, Finland/Siberia (Native American I think) 2%. It says I'm most aligned with people from England and Scotland.

But my "deep ancestry", as they call it, puts my maternal line at H2A5, which I think is right on the money, but paternally it says that EV-32, as stated above... It doesn't bother me from a racial perspective but it seems very odd that my paternal line is so closely related to East Africans. My family from my father's side is all English/Irish/Scotch and from my mother's side is Scandinavian and Polish.

I guess we all have a lot to learn still. I really appreciate your time and input to all of this, and attaching those links for me, even though I've read them, I have read them again with more understanding.

[Angela]

Just strange... I sent my sample into NG Genome project and although their "recent" (regional as they put it) ancestry is on the money, in order, UK 58%, Eastern European 19%, Southern Europe (?) 12%, Scandanavia 10%, Finland/Siberia (Native American I think) 2%. It says I'm most aligned with people from England and Scotland.

But my "deep ancestry", as they call it, puts my maternal line at H2A5, which I think is right on the money, but paternally it says that EV-32, as stated above... It doesn't bother me from a racial perspective but it seems very odd that my paternal line is so closely related to East Africans. My family from my father's side is all English/Irish/Scotch and from my mother's side is Scandinavian and Polish.

I guess we all have a lot to learn still. I really appreciate your time and input to all of this, and attaching those links for me, even though I've read them, I have read them again with more understanding.

Well, we all come from East Africa on a certain level. Some of our ancestors might just have left later than others. E-M78, as I said, mutated in North Africa and spread from there although it gets hazy after that. I think FTDNA might be your best bet.