J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Ghurier]

We can play around with modern diversity maps all we want, but as that old saying goes: "Where is the beef?" Where is the ancient DNA to back it up?

Where is the beef ? I don't know, but I prefer chicken anyway.

Point is, I don't know a single diversity analysis falling completely off scale (when done carefully).
The exemple you took of L283 in USA, is not a real thing for any well done diversity analysis. USA is not a diversity center for J-L283. It appears exactly as what it is, a place of massive-recent migration of few subclades with recent "TMRCA".

Look at Y15058, with a diversity analysis you could have said where they were expected to be found ... and it is the place where they have been found. With diversity, well used you have a probe never falling completely off.
With ancient DNA you are affected by many biases:
--> ancient sample survival
--> recovery bias depending on cultural and geographical criteria
--> possible impact of some funerary customs ... which is not a thing to neglect when we are in central Europe by the Bronze-Age to Iron-Age transition.

Ancient DNA tells you that you have some DNA at a given place ... it is a very bad test of exclusion.
Thus, when an haplogroup is yet to be found, better to use diversity than an isolated sample in a post-expansion sector.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

This is not what you said. You said Z638 originated from there. Which means they were at this location (or nearby) by 2200BC (which a long shot to prove with current data).
To my knowledge, there is no such proof, and the current paper is not proving nor favoring that (in part because of the Z2507- sample).

If your claim, is just to say that Z638 clearly Albanian branches were likely arrived by ~1400BC ... I agree, I would even go as far as saying they were arrived in southern Balkan around 1700BC at least (it is almost a given).
However, this clades are limited to : PH4679 and Y86181. For other, it is not that easy to say when they arrives.


.

Then maybe I came across wrong in expressing my opinion. What I meant was that it suggests an origin of the Albanians in the Western Balkans. The area was colonized by BronzeAge/Iron Age Illyrians. All these findings suggest they were rich in J2b2 lineages and R1b. You're the one who has to prove that these are not Illyrians. I don't know of any other known people in these areas other than Illyrians in the antique.

To claim that this is wrong and that Albanians originated somewhere else then the burden of proof would be on you. I don't have to prove anything.


I also think you're taking things way out of context.

 

[Trojet]

Ancient DNA tells you that you have some DNA at a given place ... it is a very bad test of exclusion.

Ok. So basically we should ignore ancient DNA if it doesn't suit our theories

Thus, when an haplogroup is yet to be found, better to use diversity than an isolated sample in a post-expansion sector.

Post expansion sector?! Of course we'll find most aDNA samples post expansion of a given clade. You can't find something before it was born..

In the case of J-Z638, we have an ancient sample deep in south Dalmatia who lived ~3400 ybp or only ~800 years after J-Z638 formed, this is quite telling considering we also have the brother clade (I4331) from MBA very near, as encircled. Also, we should keep in mind that TMRCA estimates merely mean when the lineages split, and not necessarily when the migrations occured!

 

[Ghurier]

Ok. So basically we should ignore ancient DNA if it doesn't suit our theories

This is not what I've said. Maybe you mis-understood what I called "test of exclusion".
But my point was to say :
- ancient DNA validate the presence of a clade in a given place at a given time,
- lack of ancient DNA proves nothing if you don't find it (in large quantity) somewhere else.

I don't know where you see that I ignore ancient DNA, I just didn't over-weight the meaning of few ancient DNA samples with an heavily biased coverage.
I already explained my methodology : I used diveristy and calibrated philogenic tree, and then look if ancient DNA are not inconsistent.

Ancient DNA is not used to build the model, just as a sanity check (but it is still used).

Post expansion sector?! Of course we'll find most aDNA samples post expansion of a given clade. You can't find something before it was born..

Again, you misunderstood what I said.
The point is :
(1)-Z638 formed around 2200BC
(2)-It is yet found in a single sample, from ~1450BC, in what appear to be an area of wide expansion for Y15058 and Y38240.
(3)-Y15058 & Y38240 expansion occured around 1800 and 1700BC.

If you found a Z638 in the 2200-1800BC range it would be way more relevant than founding a Z638 inside the expansion zone of Y15058 after 1700BC.
Same apply to Z2507-, because it is from 660BC, and this split from others in 2400BC, therefore finding it anywhere among the Y15058 means little to nothing about the origin of the dispersion.

For the sample location identified in (2) to have a real relevance, you need either:
--> (2) to be found in an area where (3) is absent
--> to have the folowing chronological order : (1) > (2) > (3)
First case is not satisfied, and for the second we have the order (1) > (3) > (2).

In the case of J-Z638, we have an ancient sample deep in south Dalmatia who lived ~3400 ybp or only ~800 years after J-Z638 formed, this is quite telling considering we also have the brother clade (I4331) from MBA very near, as encircled.

I don't know what it is telling to you.
What it tells in term of science is Just that Z638 was there by ~1700BC (because of the surounding Y38240), but nothing about what happened before.

Again, if we go by your reasoning:
--> Z638 in the south
--> Z2507- in the north
Then, are you claiming a migration from Slovenia to South Croatia between 2400 and 2200 BC ?
If you consider the Z638 sample, you have to consider the Z2507- one. To ignore one, you have to ignore both.
And because of the surrounding Y38240s which expanded around 1700BC ... the location of this two samples says nothing about what happened before 1700BC.

If you found Z638 significantly off the Y38240s, the sample would have been more insteresting, same for Z2507-.

we should keep in mind that TMRCA estimates merely mean when the lineages split, and not necessarily when the migrations occured!

I'ld love to see a model where a migration with population expansion didn't produce diversification.
Also, I'ld love to see how diversity could survive without a geographical expansion (Y-lineage are screening themselves if they are not geographically expanding ... and thus you don't create diversity).

You create diversity when you move, because some descendant got separated. There could be case where you move without creating diversity, if just one branch survives ... but not the case here because in 1800-1700BC a lot of diversity is generated.
You'll fail to create diversity when not moving, because competition between lineage.
-->Large diversification == migration/expansion, to my knowledge there is no counter-exemples.

 

[Ghurier]

Complements :
If you look more deeply into Z638 diversification you noticed few things:
--> Z631 mostly didn't diversified between 2000 and 800 BC ... it probably stayed around the same place all this time.
--> Y21045 was moving/expanding around 1800BC (same moment than Y15058) and PH4679 diffused inside Albania around 1200 BC
--> Y86181 after more carefull examination, I think this clade arrived in south Balkan no earlier than 1200 BC and maybe as late as 900 BC

Thus, I would bet for Y21045 arrival in Albania or very nearby by 1800-1700BC at the same moment of the Y15058 diffusion.
Y86181 migrated in a very fast way, almost not a lot of diversity is left on the road.

Other interesting thing I didn't noticed up to now, the clearly old Albanian J-L283 clades : Y21045 and Y86181, and in a lesser extend Illyrian Y15058 clade present diversification events around 100 BC, that screams "Roman" related event (aftermath of the last Illyrian War ?).
If we look at Z631 ... nothing relevant around 100 BC despite the very large number of subclades by that time.
Saying Z631 have a roman-supported diffusion, would be like the strangest thing ever regarding haplogroup dynamics ... it would be a massively displaced population without any diversification (for few clades ... ok, but the 40+ subclades concerned ? What a hell to explain in term of statistic). That's "black magic" at the level.

 

[torzio]

Complements :
If you look more deeply into Z638 diversification you noticed few things:
--> Z631 mostly didn't diversified between 2000 and 800 BC ... it probably stayed around the same place all this time.
--> Y21045 was moving/expanding around 1800BC (same moment than Y15058) and PH4679 diffused inside Albania around 1200 BC
--> Y86181 after more carefull examination, I think this clade arrived in south Balkan no earlier than 1200 BC and maybe as late as 900 BC

Thus, I would bet for Y21045 arrival in Albania or very nearby by 1800-1700BC at the same moment of the Y15058 diffusion.
Y86181 migrated in a very fast way, almost not a lot of diversity is left on the road.

Other interesting thing I didn't noticed up to now, the clearly old Albanian J-L283 clades : Y21045 and Y86181, and in a lesser extend Illyrian Y15058 clade present diversification events around 100 BC, that screams "Roman" related event (aftermath of the last Illyrian War ?).
If we look at Z631 ... nothing relevant around 100 BC despite the very large number of subclades by that time.
Saying Z631 have a roman-supported diffusion, would be like the strangest thing ever regarding haplogroup dynamics ... it would be a massively displaced population without any diversification (for few clades ... ok, but the 40+ subclades concerned ? What a hell to explain in term of statistic). That's "black magic" at the level.

The Illyrian war occurred 6AD to 9AD .................below are the following illyrian tribes involved and some of the people noted

 

[Fustan]

I think this is getting ridiculous
No Celtic j2b2 found in the recent study which contained a bunch of la tene samples. It was a fun theory while it lasted, but I think we have enough Celtic and Illyrian samples to move on and not make it so hard for ourselves.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

The Illyrian war occurred 6AD to 9AD .................below are the following illyrian tribes involved and some of the people noted

There were several Illyrian wars actually (3). And none of them occurred in 6AD or 9AD but much earlier during Roman occupation of the Balkans. What you posted is about the Illyrian revolt which occurred around 6AD to 9AD.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellum_Batonianum

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

Reminds me of the Albanian revolt of 1912 against the Ottoman Empire en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_revolt_of_1912


Anyway, this is a J2b2 thread so lets not derail it.

 

[Fustan]

Reminds me of the Albanian revolt of 1912 against the Ottoman Empire en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_revolt_of_1912

There is quite an overlap among both the Albanians and Illyrians roles in the empires they were subjected to, whether Roman or Ottoman. It's really overlooked even among Albanians imo and shows a strong continuity with our Illyrian ancestors, arguably even more than anything else.

 

[Ghurier]

The Illyrian war occurred 6AD to 9AD

Nope ...

I think this is getting ridiculous
No Celtic j2b2 found in the recent study which contained a bunch of la tene samples.

I kind of agree, this is getting ridiculous. This new study is not saying what a lot of people here try to make it say.

No J-L283 sample in La Tène horizon ???
-I4998, Hungary

What this study shows is that Y15058 is spread on Slovenia, Croatia, Hungary, Italy (I would expect Daunian sample to be under Y15058, and Etruria sample is under Y15058) and most likely extend as far as Serbia, Bosnia, Austria, and Montenegro during Iron age.

From when and where did they expand ? If not over-interpreting data, we have not the elements to conclude with ancient samples. Because the diversity of J-L283 is to small in this study, with just one sample-based 2400 bc diversity in Slovenia and on sample-based 2200 bc diveristy in southern Croatia found after the diffusion of some clades around 1800-1700 bc.

Then, where are the other J-L283 below Z597 ? This study is not really helping to find out. Because Croatia low diversity illustrate that this place have likely been colonised around 1700 bc and is not the native area.
At this point, it is clear that on this topic many want this migration to be south --> north. Truth to be said, what is more convincing to me at this period would be a Tumulus culture expansion north --> south.

Regarding a northern origin, ancient DNA coverage is still not that great.

If you look at the "countries" name that are sampled, it look amazing, but if you look at the map of site distribution (in black new samples from Patersson et al. 2021, in orange other samples already published used in the paper) :
--Almost no new coverage in Austria
--New coverage in Czechia is limited to north-west and very clustered (160 samples with a good temporal coverage ... but with a very poor spatial coverage)
--no new coverage from south Germany
--no new coverage from north Italy
--no new coverage in Poland
--no new coverage in Slovaquia

The only regions where we got a real improvement of covered area is Croatia/Hungary.

Croatia shows almost only J-Y15058, which is great (and bad) in fact ...
Great, because it solves the question of where was occuring the 1800-1700bc expansion. An area corresponding to what is pointed by modern diversity of Y15058 : the adriatic.
Bad, because it clearly didn't help to identify the Z597 center of diffusion. Even if with that results, Slovenia is the most promising place, or something slightly northern than Slovenia.

It was a fun theory while it lasted, but I think we have enough Celtic and Illyrian samples to move on and not make it so hard for ourselves.

I think you over-estimate the real coverage of ancient DNA. Especially in central Europe where by that time funerary customs can really be a pain and completely bias the recovered samples.
Point is, most of the clades for J-L283 have yet to be identitified in a significant amount of ancient samples, for Y15058 the story is done, it arrived in Croatia likely around 1800-1700bc.
This study confirms what diversity of modern samples is saying : Y15058 in adriatic, some Z638 early in the south, older diversity in the north.
But this study cannot not help to says if they came from the north or the south (because the two diversity spot are not statiscally significant).

Honestly, to fight a central European origin of clades like Z631, and make viable a roman diffusion model, you have to explain the phylogenic tree of this clade in such context (a question that is poorly adressed by supporters of the roman diffusion hypothesis). Yet, it is a real challenge.
If users of diversity and diversification of haplogroups have to check that ancient DNA are compatible, users of ancient DNA also have to verify that their models are consistent with the dynamical evolution of the phylogenic tree.
Yet, I have never seen such model for Z631 with a roman-diffusion, it is usually based only on hand-waving consideration, without considering that nothing happen in the phylogenic tree of this clade at the supposed moment of the roman diffusion.

 

[torzio]

Nope ...
I kind of agree, this is getting ridiculous. This new study is not saying what a lot of people here try to make it say.
No J-L283 sample in La Tène horizon ???
-I4998, Hungary
What this study shows is that Y15058 is spread on Slovenia, Croatia, Hungary, Italy (I would expect Daunian sample to be under Y15058, and Etruria sample is under Y15058) and most likely extend as far as Serbia, Bosnia, Austria, and Montenegro during Iron age.
From when and where did they expand ? If not over-interpreting data, we have not the elements to conclude with ancient samples. Because the diversity of J-L283 is to small in this study, with just one sample-based 2400 bc diversity in Slovenia and on sample-based 2200 bc diveristy in southern Croatia found after the diffusion of some clades around 1800-1700 bc.
Then, where are the other J-L283 below Z597 ? This study is not really helping to find out. Because Croatia low diversity illustrate that this place have likely been colonised around 1700 bc and is not the native area.
At this point, it is clear that on this topic many want this migration to be south --> north. Truth to be said, what is more convincing to me at this period would be a Tumulus culture expansion north --> south.
Regarding a northern origin, ancient DNA coverage is still not that great.

If you look at the "countries" name that are sampled, it look amazing, but if you look at the map of site distribution (in black new samples from Patersson et al. 2021, in orange other samples already published used in the paper) :
--Almost no new coverage in Austria
--New coverage in Czechia is limited to north-west and very clustered (160 samples with a good temporal coverage ... but with a very poor spatial coverage)
--no new coverage from south Germany
--no new coverage from north Italy
--no new coverage in Poland
--no new coverage in Slovaquia
The only regions where we got a real improvement of covered area is Croatia/Hungary.
Croatia shows almost only J-Y15058, which is great (and bad) in fact ...
Great, because it solves the question of where was occuring the 1800-1700bc expansion. An area corresponding to what is pointed by modern diversity of Y15058 : the adriatic.
Bad, because it clearly didn't help to identify the Z597 center of diffusion. Even if with that results, Slovenia is the most promising place, or something slightly northern than Slovenia.
I think you over-estimate the real coverage of ancient DNA. Especially in central Europe where by that time funerary customs can really be a pain and completely bias the recovered samples.
Point is, most of the clades for J-L283 have yet to be identitified in a significant amount of ancient samples, for Y15058 the story is done, it arrived in Croatia likely around 1800-1700bc.
This study confirms what diversity of modern samples is saying : Y15058 in adriatic, some Z638 early in the south, older diversity in the north.
But this study cannot not help to says if they came from the north or the south (because the two diversity spot are not statiscally significant).
Honestly, to fight a central European origin of clades like Z631, and make viable a roman diffusion model, you have to explain the phylogenic tree of this clade in such context (a question that is poorly adressed by supporters of the roman diffusion hypothesis). Yet, it is a real challenge.
If users of diversity and diversification of haplogroups have to check that ancient DNA are compatible, users of ancient DNA also have to verify that their models are consistent with the dynamical evolution of the phylogenic tree.
Yet, I have never seen such model for Z631 with a roman-diffusion, it is usually based only on hand-waving consideration, without considering that nothing happen in the phylogenic tree of this clade at the supposed moment of the roman diffusion.

ok.....you mean the Roman Republic and the Illyrian war (Ardiaean-Labaeatan) ( from modern Montenegro lands ) .................this was due to
Macedonia taking over modern Albania in 314 BC
Rome invading the coastal area of Macedonia/albania to stop hannibal and his ally, Macedonia in linking up and resupplying him ...............
These Ardiaean-Labaeatan Illyrians where pushing into southern Montenegro from further north.

On the other matter ..........its been nearly 3 years ago I stated the daunians ( illyrians ) came from modern croatia to Foggia Italy ..........as per the August paper stated ............you should also find G2a, I2a and R1b as the main Illyrian markers of the Liburnians, Dalmatians and further northern Illyrian tribeal people

 

[Archetype0ne]

I am impartial to most of this. I do have my own opinion, and it differs in details to most of the theories discussed here.

Just wanted to share this as it might be indicative of when exactly Z631 left towards Europe.

PS: As far as my theory. Danube - Rhine tributary connections served as highways for L283 in the past, potentially brining very early L283 as far as Netherlands / Britain.

As far as where the main waves within Europe came from my guess is around Austria/Hungary/Croatia. With some branches through Rhine tributaries and river systems continuing North-West pre-Roman times.

Edit 2: After a bit of thought this could also be back migration. In fact likely it is a backmgiration given the upclade flags. But who knows.

 

[Trojet]

Just wanted to share this as it might be indicative of when exactly Z631 left towards Europe.

Edit 2: After a bit of thought this could also be back migration. In fact likely it is a backmgiration given the upclade flags. But who knows.

I think you mean when Z638 left towards Europe. Under this scenario, it would be ~3800 ybp or later, of course assuming YFull TMRCA is correct here. This would suggest these L283 clades, including Z638, formed and were quite common in the NW Caucasus region until about 3800 ybp, but for some reason only one lineage survived to this day, with the rest of them migrating en masse towards the Balkans/Italy/Europe starting ~3800 ybp. It's possible, and a scenario we can't rule out at the moment, unless he gets a closer match deeper within European territory, or we get L283 aDNA within Europe that's dated over 4000 ybp.

However, since the Adyghe sample is so far downstream, more specifically: J-L283>Z622>Z600>Z2509>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Y21045, and there is currently no other samples from that region within any of these branching points, it's more likely he is a migrant from further west sometime within 3800 ybp. There is also the ancient MOK15 sample which would somewhat predate this timeframe of migration from NW Caucasus, and he didn't show any obvious autosomal sings pointing to a (recent) migration from there.

The ancient KDC001 and the modern Armenian samples sitting at ~J-L283* are in a different situation, as they don't have any European matches in the last ~5500 years and are not deep within European branches, therefore for these two it's more likely they are "native" to the wider Transcaucasian region or nearby..

 

[Archetype0ne]

I think you mean when Z638 left towards Europe. Under this scenario, it would be ~3800 ybp or later, of course assuming YFull TMRCA is correct here. This would suggest these L283 clades, including Z638, formed and were quite common in the NW Caucasus region until about 3800 ybp, but for some reason only one lineage survived to this day, with the rest of them migrating en masse towards the Balkans/Italy/Europe starting ~3800 ybp. It's possible and a scenario we can't rule out at the moment, unless he gets a closer match deeper within European territory, or we get L283 aDNA within Europe that's dated well over 4000 ybp.
However, since the Adyghe sample is so far downstream, more specifically: J-L283>Z622>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Y21045, and there is currently no other samples from that region within any of these branching points, it's more likely he is a migrant from further west sometime within 3800 ybp. There is also the ancient MOK15 sample which would somewhat predate this timeframe of migration from NW Caucasus, and he didn't show any obvious autosomal sings pointing to a (recent) migration from there.
The ancient KDC001 and the modern Armenian samples sitting at ~J-L283* are in a different situation, as they don't have any European matches in the last ~5500 years and are not deep within European branches, therefore for these two it's more likely they are "native" to the wider Transcaucasian region or nearby..

Thanks Trojet for helping me make sense of this. Your second scenario is orders of magnitude more likely.
Would be fun if 2022 does to Caucasian L283 auDNA what 2021 did for the European one. But I have a feeling European L283 auDNA has more in store .

 

[Ghurier]

PS: As far as my theory. Danube - Rhine tributary connections served as highways for L283 in the past, potentially brining very early L283 as far as Netherlands / Britain.

I would agree that L283 likely followed the Danube when migrating from the Black-Sea coast toward central Europe.
The moment at which it occured is harder to identify.
Looking at the dynamic of the philogenic tree, L283 expanded around ~3500 and ~3100 bc.
The first part of this two-step migration have left diversity, but fairly rare and widespread. Still a lot of diversity seems to ended in Sardinia.
For the second part, again it is fairly rare, and diversity is left in Italy.
Thus, I wouldn't completely exclude a progression toward the north following first the mediteranean coast and then the Adriatic or Thyrrenian sea.

As far as where the main waves within Europe came from my guess is around Austria/Hungary/Croatia.

Agreeing too with that. Yet, I would localize the Z597 center likely around Slovenia/Austria/Hungary/Slovaquia.
What puzzle me the most, is the available "space", Z631 needs a large sandbox to play during EIA, there is many Z631 and Z1043 branches (~45).
To create such diversity, you need space (to create partial isolation, and thus surviving diversity).
Thus, either these dudes were in a mountainous sector (to increase isolation between villages and therefore facilitate diversification), or they need a large area if on "flat" landscape.
An alternative would be that Z631s would have had a better survival rate than average clades, meaning that the number of surviving sub-clades today would be biased-high and give an over-estimated idea of the real Z631 population size during EIA (but there is no real way to test such hypothesis).
I'm leaning toward thinking that they were in some mountainous regions, either the Carpathians or the Alps.

With some branches through Rhine tributaries and river systems continuing North-West pre-Roman times.

That's very possible.
L283 didn't seems to have had much implication in Roman stuff in general, there is nothing particular in the L283 philogenic tree during Roman times.
The most notable stuff is some small diversification events for Illyrian clades around 100 bc.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

According to this ''Italics'' migrated from the Balkans, could they of been J2b2 ?

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

Or maybe the map is wrong. Since some Indo Europeans most likely settled around central Europe before migrating down to the Balkans and Italy.

 

[Riverman]

I think you mean when Z638 left towards Europe. Under this scenario, it would be ~3800 ybp or later, of course assuming YFull TMRCA is correct here. This would suggest these L283 clades, including Z638, formed and were quite common in the NW Caucasus region until about 3800 ybp, but for some reason only one lineage survived to this day, with the rest of them migrating en masse towards the Balkans/Italy/Europe starting ~3800 ybp. It's possible, and a scenario we can't rule out at the moment, unless he gets a closer match deeper within European territory, or we get L283 aDNA within Europe that's dated over 4000 ybp.
However, since the Adyghe sample is so far downstream, more specifically: J-L283>Z622>Z600>Z2509>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Y21045, and there is currently no other samples from that region within any of these branching points, it's more likely he is a migrant from further west sometime within 3800 ybp. There is also the ancient MOK15 sample which would somewhat predate this timeframe of migration from NW Caucasus, and he didn't show any obvious autosomal sings pointing to a (recent) migration from there.
The ancient KDC001 and the modern Armenian samples sitting at ~J-L283* are in a different situation, as they don't have any European matches in the last ~5500 years and are not deep within European branches, therefore for these two it's more likely they are "native" to the wider Transcaucasian region or nearby..

There are also subclades of E-V13 in the Caucasus which came with Thraco-Cimmerians, Greeks and other Europeans. I completely agree that isolated, younger lineages in the Caucasus just point to migration from Europe into the East.
The ancestors of J-L283 were for a long time in Europe when this one branched off.

 

[torzio]

Strabo

part of the Alps which extends as far as the country of the Iapodes,a tribe which is at the same time both Celtic and Illyrian. And thence, too, flow rivers which bring down into Segestica much merchandise p255 both from other countries and from Italy. For if one passes over Mount Ocra​276 from Aquileia to Nauportus,​277 a settlement of the Taurisci, whither the wagons are brought, the distance is three hundred and fifty stadia, though some say five hundred. Now the Ocra is the lowest part of that portion of the Alps which extends from the country of the Rhaeti to that of the Iapodes. Then the mountains rise again, in the country of the Iapodes, and are called "Albian."​278 In like manner, also, there is a pass which leads over Ocra from Tergeste,​279 a Carnic village, to a marsh called Lugeum.​280


276 = Julian alps

277 = Ober-Laibach

278 = lower eastern alps near sava river

279 = Trieste

280 = Lake Zirknitz




the country of the Iapodes; for the Iapodes are situated on the Albian Mountain, which is the last mountain of the Alps, is very lofty, and reaches down to the country of the Pannonians on one side and to the Adrias on the other. They are indeed a war-mad people, but they have been utterly worn out by Augustus. Their cities​ are Metulum,​294 Arupini,​295 Monetium,​296 and Vendo.​297

Their lands are poor, the people living for the most part on spelt and millet. Their armour is Celtic, and they are tattooed like the rest of the Illyrians and the Thracians. After the voyage along the coast of the country of the Iapodes comes that along the coast of the country of the Liburni, the latter being five hundred stadia longer than the former; on this voyage is a river,​298 which is navigable inland for merchant-vessels as far as the country of the Dalmatians, and also a Liburnian city, Scardo.299


294 = Metule

295 = Auersberg

296 = Möttnig

297 = "Avendo," which place was near what are now Crkvinje Kampolje, south-east of Zeng

298 = The Titius, now Kerka

299 = Scardona



The Iapodes are the Daunians of Foggia Italy who speak a messapic language