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Salento said:
... much less than 10-20,000 years, ... our current Final marker is about 2998 ybp -

it depends of how much down the line you tested.

People keep arguing all the time about Haplogroups, (especially the Balkans) and now you’re saying that Haplogroups aren't important, ... lol

It's possible I could share a common direct male ancestor with Torzio in the last 200 - 300 - 500 - 1000 or more years ago
Click to expand...
You are confusing me with Albanians.
Even with 3000 years that's 100 generations. You have received genetic input from 100 ancestors. Why focus on one?

I am either M269 or L23. Take your pick. Not that I care.
 
bigsnake49 said:
You are confusing me with Albanians.
Even with 3000 years that's 100 generations. You have received genetic input from 100 ancestors. Why focus on one?

I am either M269 or L23. Take your pick. Not that I care.
Click to expand...

It’s a Final marker, (we keep testing) It could be 100 or 10 or less generations, ... to Torzio and I most recent traceable common ancestor.

Autosomal change, but:
the Y chromosome is constant, it doesn’t change (it can only mutate), it’s a direct line to all male ancestors.

I didn’t confuse you, ...
 
@bigsnake49

Compared to R1B, T1a2 is rare,

our line was a small group of people, but with the latest update we are only 3, me and Torzio included.

If Covid-19 hits any of us, the line could go extinct, :) (seriously)

... it’s easy to check where the others come from, and possible connections.
 
tRBy8tf.png


I've included Etruscan, Latin, and Ancient Greek populations, as well as Medieval, Neolithic and Chalcolithic samples. Moreover, I've divided the modern Italian samples we have by macro-region.
 
Maybe it’s senseless since I’m albanian , but compared me with some Italian samples with Vahaduo..
d7565132-0337-478e-8cf6-b0f7681a0ae0
 
Vahaduo compare

65fc022a-ae2a-4110-b854-36ed4e336924
 
Target: G
Distance: 3.5434% / 3.54343513

56.8Friuli-VG
19.6Apulia
16.2Malta
5.2Trentino
2.2Italian_Jewish
Sorry for tge ‘empty’ posts ... I tried to copy a photo from Vahaduo but smth went wrong ....
 
Dodecade K12b - My results with all coordinates produced by Eupedia team (ancient samples) more coordinates produced by @jovialis in post #809. Source: 913 data.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Duarte[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D6FF00, align: right"]6.29654667[/TD]
[TD]GironaSantJuliadeRamis_I10892[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E8FF00, align: right"]6.83142738[/TD]
[TD]GironaSantJuliadeRamis_I10895[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F3FF00, align: right"]7.15328596[/TD]
[TD]EarlyMedievalAndalusia_I3585[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FCFF00, align: right"]7.40270896[/TD]
[TD]I12516_SE_Iberia_c.10-16CE[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFE00, align: right"]7.51741312[/TD]
[TD]I12514_SE_Iberia_c.10-16CE[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF500, align: right"]7.79453013[/TD]
[TD]R63_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF200, align: right"]7.87062895[/TD]
[TD]Roman-SoldierFN_2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEF00, align: right"]7.96743999[/TD]
[TD]EarlyMedievalIberiaGranada_I3981[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEE00, align: right"]7.98827891[/TD]
[TD]GironaSantJuliadeRamis_I10852[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE400, align: right"]8.29628230[/TD]
[TD]MedievalTaifaofValencia_I12649[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDB00, align: right"]8.57093927[/TD]
[TD]CrusaderKnightFrenchLebanonCrusaderSI40[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD800, align: right"]8.65500433[/TD]
[TD]I3982_SE_Iberia_c.3-4CE[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD300, align: right"]8.79383307[/TD]
[TD]I7675_NE_Iberia_c.6-8CE_ES[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD100, align: right"]8.84874002[/TD]
[TD]R110_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD100, align: right"]8.85043502[/TD]
[TD]GironaSantJuliadeRamis_I10853[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC700, align: right"]9.14401444[/TD]
[TD]I2215_Malak_Preslavets[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC600, align: right"]9.16999455[/TD]
[TD]R1289_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBA00, align: right"]9.54338514[/TD]
[TD]I7673_NE_Iberia_c.6-8CE_ES[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB500, align: right"]9.68837448[/TD]
[TD]R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB400, align: right"]9.70848598[/TD]
[TD]CarthagoMaghrebiAndalusia_I7457[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB200, align: right"]9.77754570[/TD]
[TD]I12515_SE_Iberia_c.10-16CE[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB200, align: right"]9.77754570[/TD]
[TD]SpaniardCordobaCaliphate_I12515[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA700, align: right"]10.09213060[/TD]
[TD]GalloRomanCeltMixIberia_I10866[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA500, align: right"]10.16175674[/TD]
[TD]I3584_SE_Iberia_c.5-8CE[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA100, align: right"]10.26428760[/TD]
[TD]IberianCordobaCaliphate_I7498[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA100, align: right"]10.27705211[/TD]
[TD]I3809_SE_Iberia_c.10-16CE[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA000, align: right"]10.28605367[/TD]
[TD]R105_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9F00, align: right"]10.32874145[/TD]
[TD]CL94[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9E00, align: right"]10.34106861[/TD]
[TD]R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9700, align: right"]10.55773996[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Aosta_Valley[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9100, align: right"]10.73484047[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian_HGDP01154[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8F00, align: right"]10.80122678[/TD]
[TD]I8343_NE_Iberia_Late_RomP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8E00, align: right"]10.82306796[/TD]
[TD]R109_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8900, align: right"]10.96510374[/TD]
[TD]R1221_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8900, align: right"]10.98203533[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian_HGDP01173[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8800, align: right"]10.98636428[/TD]
[TD]I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8700, align: right"]11.02664954[/TD]
[TD]I3574_SE_Iberia_c.5-8CE[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8400, align: right"]11.12975292[/TD]
[TD]HispanoRomanTaifaofValencia_I12647[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8200, align: right"]11.17486018[/TD]
[TD]I10897_NE_Iberia_c.8-12CE[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7F00, align: right"]11.25954262[/TD]
[TD]CrusaderKnightTuscanLebanonCrusaderSI41[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7D00, align: right"]11.31809171[/TD]
[TD]GironaSantJuliadeRamis_I10851[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7B00, align: right"]11.37322733[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian_HGDP01172[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7B00, align: right"]11.38873566[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian_HGDP01171[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7800, align: right"]11.47675912[/TD]
[TD]I3579_SE_Iberia_c.5-8CE[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7000, align: right"]11.70276036[/TD]
[TD]I3577_SE_Iberia_c.5-8CE[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6F00, align: right"]11.72289640[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian_HGDP01153[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6E00, align: right"]11.76165805[/TD]
[TD]Bavaria_BB_II5524[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6B00, align: right"]11.85137967[/TD]
[TD]I10865_NE_Iberia_RomP_out[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6800, align: right"]11.94945605[/TD]
[TD]R1224_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6700, align: right"]11.96303055[/TD]
[TD]I8203_NE_Iberia_Hel(Empúries1)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6600, align: right"]12.00252473[/TD]
[TD]I8475_NE_Iberia_RomP_atypical[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6400, align: right"]12.04995436[/TD]
[TD]VasconicTribe_I8209[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6400, align: right"]12.04995436[/TD]
[TD]I8209_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6200, align: right"]12.11723978[/TD]
[TD]R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6100, align: right"]12.13294276[/TD]
[TD]I12221_Sardinia_EarlyMedieval_Grotta_Colombi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6000, align: right"]12.17093259[/TD]
[TD]I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5D00, align: right"]12.25061274[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5C00, align: right"]12.28835221[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian_HGDP01174[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5C00, align: right"]12.30450730[/TD]
[TD]I8561_Sicily_EBA_Isnello[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5C00, align: right"]12.30531999[/TD]
[TD]CL23[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


y60Q5ur.png
 
Salento said:
You can ask an other Pugliese the same question (same issue) :)

imho the Calabria sample doesn’t represent the average Calabrese, and to a degree the same goes for the Campania sample too.

vTlfPHo.jpg
Click to expand...

I think we have to be careful with all the "Sizzi" samples. They're by no means representative, having been chosen by him from who knows where and for who knows what purpose.

That said, I don't think Calabria has some of the "northern" input which went into some areas of Sicily. The additional Saracen/North African input which the Sicilians have was counterbalanced by that Northern Italian input at least as far as placement on a PCA goes.

I touched on that looking at my own results. I've never gotten a "match" with western Sicilians, i.e. at 23andme or Ancestry. However, I've seen other signs of some sort of connection between Sicily, at least the more central and northwestern parts of Sicily, and northwestern Italy. I think it relates back not only to the Lombard settlement, when many Ligurians, Tuscans, Lombards, were settled there, but also to ancient settlement patterns in Sicily. None of that applies to Calabria.

Northeastern Sicily is a bit different. I think they would probably plot closer to Calabrians, as they were less influenced both by the Saracens and the "Lombards", and parts of it, Messina, for example, were settled from Calabria after the major earthquakes there.

As for Campania, I think there is variety there because of the presence of Napoli, where there has been more admixture, and the hinterland, famously near where the expelled Ligures were settled.

Napoli, like northwestern Sicily, may have more "northern" ancestry, including French ancestry, but some expelled Saracens were also settled there, near Salerno, "Saracens" who may have been at least partly native Sicilian.

One just has to look at the variation in Toscana on the PCA above, which had a far less turbulent history, to see how much variation there can be in a single province in Italy. One can see it in Bergamo as well. What is interesting is that if you and Jovialis are representative of Puglia, it is more homogeneous, unless, of course, one of you had your kit used to create the Puglia sample.

Of course, this is just conjecture, although, I hope, based on data and history. I would need lots of samples and the ability to compare them to say anything more certain.

It would be interesting, for example, to plot the samples from this paper on the PCA. They are from northwestern Italy, i.e. the Ligurian hinterland which is now part of Piemonte, an area in the isolated northeast, and Foggia in Puglia.

Maybe Jovialis knows if the samples are available.

This is the paper;
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-019-0551-x

It would also be interesting to see the samples from the Corsica paper on the plot and see how homogeneous, or not, they are...
 
Angela said:
I think we have to be careful with all the "Sizzi" samples. They're by no means representative, having been chosen by him from who knows where and for who knows what purpose.

That said, I don't think Calabria has some of the "northern" input which went into some areas of Sicily. The additional Saracen/North African input which the Sicilians have was counterbalanced by that Northern Italian input at least as far as placement on a PCA goes.

I touched on that looking at my own results. I've never gotten a "match" with western Sicilians, i.e. at 23andme or Ancestry. However, I've seen other signs of some sort of connection between Sicily, at least the more central and northwestern parts of Sicily, and northwestern Italy. I think it relates back not only to the Lombard settlement, when many Ligurians, Tuscans, Lombards, were settled there, but also to ancient settlement patterns in Sicily. None of that applies to Calabria.

Northeastern Sicily is a bit different. I think they would probably plot closer to Calabrians, as they were less influenced both by the Saracens and the "Lombards", and parts of it, Messina, for example, were settled from Calabria after the major earthquakes there.

As for Campania, I think there is variety there because of the presence of Napoli, where there has been more admixture, and the hinterland, famously near where the expelled Ligures were settled.

Napoli, like northwestern Sicily, may have more "northern" ancestry, including French ancestry, but some expelled Saracens were also settled there, near Salerno, "Saracens" who may have been at least partly native Sicilian.

One just has to look at the variation in Toscana on the PCA above, which had a far less turbulent history, to see how much variation there can be in a single province in Italy. One can see it in Bergamo as well. What is interesting is that if you and Jovialis are representative of Puglia, it is more homogeneous, unless, of course, one of you had your kit used to create the Puglia sample.

Of course, this is just conjecture, although, I hope, based on data and history. I would need lots of samples and the ability to compare them to say anything more certain.

It would be interesting, for example, to plot the samples from this paper on the PCA. They are from northwestern Italy, i.e. the Ligurian hinterland which is now part of Piemonte, an area in the isolated northeast, and Foggia in Puglia.

Maybe Jovialis knows if the samples are available.

This is the paper;
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-019-0551-x

It would also be interesting to see the samples from the Corsica paper on the plot and see how homogeneous, or not, they are...
Click to expand...

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/sear...mic+variation+through+whole-genome+sequencing

Unfortunately not, I've actually tired getting them before. It is frustrating that so many sample files are not available for the public. I tired getting the southern Italian samples from Patterson et al. 2012, and Hellenthal et al 2014, but they're not available either.
 
Angela said:
It fits, yes? Your Italian ancestry is from the north?
Click to expand...


Indeed, Angela. My paternal grandfather was from San Martino di Lupari (Padova). According to a genealogical work that I commissioned years ago, my paternal family arrived in Veneto from the Bergamo valleys 500 years ago. My paternal grandmother had Ligurian origins, and I think Lombard also. In my maternal family (where my non-European components come from), the European origins are mostly Iberian, although my maternal grandmother had a Neapolitan grandfather.
 
Angela said:
The Patterson one really surprises me given he's Reich Lab.

What a shame. So much for open science.
Click to expand...

I think it might be available in the Reich Lab Dataset, actually. However, their files are in an esoteric format that only works with Linux OS. I only know how to make use of BAM files, thanks to WGSextract.

I wish they would just make a version of the samples that are readily available in consumer genomics raw data format. I don't know why it needs to be so convoluted.
 
Jovialis said:
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/sear...mic+variation+through+whole-genome+sequencing

Unfortunately not, I've actually tired getting them before. It is frustrating that so many sample files are not available for the public. I tired getting the southern Italian samples from Patterson et al. 2012, and Hellenthal et al 2014, but they're not available either.
Click to expand...

The Friulian samples look like they come from this paper

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230590265_Pasture_Names_with_Romance_and_Slavic_Roots_Facilitate_Dissection_of_Y_Chromosome_Variation_in_an_Exclusively_German-Speaking_Alpine_Region


or was it

Tõnu Esko et al., Genetic characterization of northeastern Italian population isolates in the context of broader European genetic diversity. European Journal of Human Genertics, 2012.


[url]https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2012229

[/URL]
 
 
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]REB[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(81.33218392512967, 100%, 50%)"]4.83347701[/TD]
[TD]West_&_Central_German[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(80.38513410347069, 100%, 50%)"]4.95185824[/TD]
[TD]Dutch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(69.63366203504563, 100%, 50%)"]6.29579225[/TD]
[TD]English[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(59.21221175268835, 100%, 50%)"]7.59847353[/TD]
[TD]Danish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(50.59489355962343, 100%, 50%)"]8.67563831[/TD]
[TD]Cornish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(43.38994321892196, 100%, 50%)"]9.57625710[/TD]
[TD]Norwegian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(40.88675458559419, 100%, 50%)"]9.88915568[/TD]
[TD]Orcadian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(38.36193044908521, 100%, 50%)"]10.20475869[/TD]
[TD]South_&_Central_Swedish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(34.31301615764501, 100%, 50%)"]10.71087298[/TD]
[TD]Irish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(30.882298054763552, 100%, 50%)"]11.13971274[/TD]
[TD]Austrian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(27.25370519530172, 100%, 50%)"]11.59328685[/TD]
[TD]French[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(19.84670948990241, 100%, 50%)"]12.51916131[/TD]
[TD]Scottish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(12.144897199993366, 100%, 50%)"]13.48188785[/TD]
[TD]North_Swedish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(-17.1208547231237, 100%, 50%)"]17.14010684[/TD]
[TD]Czech[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(-17.133348241775224, 100%, 50%)"]17.14166853[/TD]
[TD]Hungarian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(-19.91293955885567, 100%, 50%)"]17.48911744[/TD]
[TD]Croatian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(-20.416272561266936, 100%, 50%)"]17.55203407[/TD]
[TD]Kaikavian_Croatian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(-27.78869239559569, 100%, 50%)"]18.47358655[/TD]
[TD]Serbian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(-29.539987963086276, 100%, 50%)"]18.69249850[/TD]
[TD]Slovenian_1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(-30.749121390474443, 100%, 50%)"]18.84364017[/TD]
[TD]SerbianBosnia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(-32.09254025099324, 100%, 50%)"]19.01156753[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(-39.47630294184776, 100%, 50%)"]19.93453787[/TD]
[TD]Slovakian_1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(-41.954462735671484, 100%, 50%)"]20.24430784[/TD]
[TD]Spanish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(-45.47183446133664, 100%, 50%)"]20.68397931[/TD]
[TD]Moldavian_1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(-53.159902979875795, 100%, 50%)"]21.64498787[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian_1[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]SAG[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(85.42120881233701, 100%, 50%)"]4.32234890[/TD]
[TD]West_&_Central_German[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(79.30421152010936, 100%, 50%)"]5.08697356[/TD]
[TD]Dutch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(64.79721746143585, 100%, 50%)"]6.90034782[/TD]
[TD]English[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(61.83229762144631, 100%, 50%)"]7.27096280[/TD]
[TD]Cornish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(52.26952236991089, 100%, 50%)"]8.46630970[/TD]
[TD]Orcadian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(47.69681611436464, 100%, 50%)"]9.03789799[/TD]
[TD]Irish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(45.88605529321758, 100%, 50%)"]9.26424309[/TD]
[TD]Austrian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(45.501656394252635, 100%, 50%)"]9.31229295[/TD]
[TD]Danish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(40.07351377672104, 100%, 50%)"]9.99081078[/TD]
[TD]French[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(34.03334599974242, 100%, 50%)"]10.74583175[/TD]
[TD]Norwegian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(33.60222225080091, 100%, 50%)"]10.79972222[/TD]
[TD]Scottish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(30.168121471272798, 100%, 50%)"]11.22898482[/TD]
[TD]South_&_Central_Swedish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(5.354975685815305, 100%, 50%)"]14.33062804[/TD]
[TD]North_Swedish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(-1.1934255642607212, 100%, 50%)"]15.14917820[/TD]
[TD]Hungarian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(-9.7230773609692, 100%, 50%)"]16.21538467[/TD]
[TD]Kaikavian_Croatian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(-10.796547722025139, 100%, 50%)"]16.34956847[/TD]
[TD]Croatian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(-10.970301977203974, 100%, 50%)"]16.37128775[/TD]
[TD]Czech[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(-14.703704477642361, 100%, 50%)"]16.83796306[/TD]
[TD]Slovenian_1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(-17.357507257521235, 100%, 50%)"]17.16968841[/TD]
[TD]Serbian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(-22.140054875464273, 100%, 50%)"]17.76750686[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(-23.987771703016506, 100%, 50%)"]17.99847146[/TD]
[TD]SerbianBosnia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(-29.160209171212955, 100%, 50%)"]18.64502615[/TD]
[TD]Spanish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(-34.489797721402965, 100%, 50%)"]19.31122472[/TD]
[TD]Moldavian_1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(-34.815213722682955, 100%, 50%)"]19.35190172[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian_1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: hsl(-40.51497126436524, 100%, 50%)"]20.06437141[/TD]
[TD]Slovakian_1[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Angela said:
I think we have to be careful with all the "Sizzi" samples. They're by no means representative, having been chosen by him from who knows where and for who knows what purpose.

That said, I don't think Calabria has some of the "northern" input which went into some areas of Sicily. The additional Saracen/North African input which the Sicilians have was counterbalanced by that Northern Italian input at least as far as placement on a PCA goes.

I touched on that looking at my own results. I've never gotten a "match" with western Sicilians, i.e. at 23andme or Ancestry. However, I've seen other signs of some sort of connection between Sicily, at least the more central and northwestern parts of Sicily, and northwestern Italy. I think it relates back not only to the Lombard settlement, when many Ligurians, Tuscans, Lombards, were settled there, but also to ancient settlement patterns in Sicily. None of that applies to Calabria.

Northeastern Sicily is a bit different. I think they would probably plot closer to Calabrians, as they were less influenced both by the Saracens and the "Lombards", and parts of it, Messina, for example, were settled from Calabria after the major earthquakes there.

As for Campania, I think there is variety there because of the presence of Napoli, where there has been more admixture, and the hinterland, famously near where the expelled Ligures were settled.

Napoli, like northwestern Sicily, may have more "northern" ancestry, including French ancestry, but some expelled Saracens were also settled there, near Salerno, "Saracens" who may have been at least partly native Sicilian.

One just has to look at the variation in Toscana on the PCA above, which had a far less turbulent history, to see how much variation there can be in a single province in Italy. One can see it in Bergamo as well. What is interesting is that if you and Jovialis are representative of Puglia, it is more homogeneous, unless, of course, one of you had your kit used to create the Puglia sample.

Of course, this is just conjecture, although, I hope, based on data and history. I would need lots of samples and the ability to compare them to say anything more certain.

It would be interesting, for example, to plot the samples from this paper on the PCA. They are from northwestern Italy, i.e. the Ligurian hinterland which is now part of Piemonte, an area in the isolated northeast, and Foggia in Puglia.

Maybe Jovialis knows if the samples are available.

This is the paper;
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-019-0551-x

It would also be interesting to see the samples from the Corsica paper on the plot and see how homogeneous, or not, they are...
Click to expand...


So I found this in the supplementary notes:

9. Data availability

A subset of the data is already available on the European Genome-phenome Archive (EGA) at the following links:
FVG cohort: BAM files https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ega/studies/EGAS00001000252; sample list, vcf files https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ega/studies/EGAS00001001597 ; https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ega/datasets/EGAD00001002729 ;
VBI cohort: BAM files https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ega/studies/EGAS00001000398; https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ega/studies/EGAS00001000458;
CAR cohort: BAM files https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ega/studies/EGAS00001000460;
A vcf file including all the INGI variants (SNPs and INDELs) with information on allele frequencies in the whole dataset and each cohort, has been submitted to the European Variation Archive (EVA), study accession number: PRJEB33648. The data is accessible at the following link: https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB33648.
Click to expand...

However, you need to request access in order to download the files. I formally wrote them an e-mail, requesting access, explaining exactly what I was going to do with it. Let's see what happens...

Who controls access to this dataset
For each dataset that requires access control, there is a corresponding Data Access Committee (DAC) who determine access permissions. Data access requests are reviewed by the relevant DAC, not by the EGA. If you need to request access to this data set, please contact:



[h=4]Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute[/h]
Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute




Access information: http://www.ebi.ac.uk/ega/dacs/EGAC00001000205


Contact Person: Data Sharing

Email: [email protected]
Click to expand...
 
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