Y-DNA and mtDNA frequencies in Proto-Indo-European cultures

Maciamo

Maciamo

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Sile said:
thanks

I do not see Haak 2015................. 69 ancient samples...........are they included in your ancient dna link?
Click to expand...

Yes, they are included. Please check the pages for each culture for the details.
 
Great, finally are Y.

But if in Yamna were only R1b, then
in which culture at that time was R1a?:thinking:
 
then in which culture at that time was R1a?
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All samples of Yamnaya so far come from one specific area, IIRC.

So R1a could be in another subdivision / region of that culture.

Or maybe they were located more to the north than the Yamnaya.
 
Rethel said:
Great, finally are Y.

But if in Yamna were only R1b, then
in which culture at that time was R1a?:thinking:
Click to expand...

This is the map I made five years ago to show the division between the R1a forest-steppe zone (in yellow) and the R1b steppe zone (in red) within the Yamna culture. All the Yamna samples tested so far come from the red zone (of the grey Volga-Ural region following the R1b arrow on the right).

late_neolithic_europe.gif
 
Maciamo said:
Yes, they are included. Please check the pages for each culture for the details.
Click to expand...

I must be going blind, your combined neolithic Ydna numbers = 34 the numbers and some Ydna markers are missing plus notes refer to Haak 2005 and 2010 papers only
 
Maciamo said:
This is the map I made five years ago to show the division between the R1a forest-steppe zone (in yellow) and the R1b steppe zone (in red) within the Yamna culture. All the Yamna samples tested so far come from the red zone (of the grey Volga-Ural region following the R1b arrow on the right).

late_neolithic_europe.gif
Click to expand...

one must ask oneself, ...did R1a and R1b arrive in modern russia and the steppes at the same time , if so, then how did R1b dominate western europe and R1a eastern Europe?

IMO, R1b was always to the west of R1a and entered Europe first in great numbers, the eastern european R1b was eventually diluted in numbers by the late arrival of R1a into europe, ..........maybe there is another scenario
 
IMO, R1b was always to the west of R1a and entered Europe first in great numbers, the eastern european R1b was eventually diluted in numbers by the late arrival of R1a into europe, ..........maybe there is another scenario
Click to expand...

This would be contra-factual reasoning. We have samples of both R1a and R1b from the same period - the Bronze Age.

But samples of Bronze Age R1a from Central Europe and Scandinavia found so far are usually older than samples of R1b.

So it seems like during the Iron Age R1b expanded eastward, pushing R1a actually more to the east during that period:

ybp = approximate age of each sample in years before present

R1_samples_C.png


Check also the new paper on the spread of R1b - it seems that R1b was originally not to the west, but to the south of R1a:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/suppinfo/ejhg2015114s1.html

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/ejhg2015114f1.html

R1b expanded from South-Eastern Europe, according to their map (R1a came from North-Eastern and Eastern Europe):

ejhg2015114f1.jpg
 
Tomenable said:
This would be contra-factual reasoning. We have samples of both R1a and R1b from the same period - the Bronze Age.

But samples of Bronze Age R1a from Central Europe and Scandinavia found so far are usually older than samples of R1b.

So it seems like during the Iron Age R1b expanded eastward, pushing R1a actually more to the east during that period:

ybp = approximate age of each sample in years before present



Check also the new paper on the spread of R1b - it seems that R1b was originally not to the west, but to the south of R1a:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/suppinfo/ejhg2015114s1.html

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/ejhg2015114f1.html

R1b expanded from South-Eastern Europe, according to their map (R1a came from North-Eastern and Eastern Europe):

ejhg2015114f1.jpg
Click to expand...

According to Anthony, around 4,000 BC Bulgarian/Balkan farming society collapses and at the same time we see evidence of first invasions from the Steppe on horses. Horse riding hunter-gatherers. These invasions last a very long time and Balkan neolithic settlements stay empty for 5-7 hundred years. This could be the first source of M269 from the Steppe into the rest of Europe. Pre Yamnaya times.
 
Maciamo said:
This is the map I made five years ago to show the division between the R1a forest-steppe zone (in yellow) and the R1b steppe zone (in red) within the Yamna culture. All the Yamna samples tested so far come from the red zone (of the grey Volga-Ural region following the R1b arrow on the right).

late_neolithic_europe.gif
Click to expand...

maybe there were 3 zones : R1a, R1b and I2a (at least some I2a tribes)
and the biggest mystery zone remains Maykop
 
Tomenable said:
This would be contra-factual reasoning. We have samples of both R1a and R1b from the same period - the Bronze Age.

But samples of Bronze Age R1a from Central Europe and Scandinavia found so far are usually older than samples of R1b.

So it seems like during the Iron Age R1b expanded eastward, pushing R1a actually more to the east during that period:

ybp = approximate age of each sample in years before present

R1_samples_C.png


Check also the new paper on the spread of R1b - it seems that R1b was originally not to the west, but to the south of R1a:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/suppinfo/ejhg2015114s1.html

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/ejhg2015114f1.html

R1b expanded from South-Eastern Europe, according to their map (R1a came from North-Eastern and Eastern Europe):

ejhg2015114f1.jpg
Click to expand...

the paper is behind a paywall but the supplementary info of Allentoft suggest 3 groups into Europe : Corded Ware (R1a) , Bell Beaker (R1b) and Unetice followed by Tumulus cultures
Unetice seems more multi-ethnic and involving some I2 tribes too

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/extref/nature14507-s1.pdf
 
LeBrok said:
According to Anthony, around 4,000 BC Bulgarian/Balkan farming society collapses and at the same time we see evidence of first invasions from the Steppe on horses. Horse riding hunter-gatherers. These invasions last a very long time and Balkan neolithic settlements stay empty for 5-7 hundred years. This could be the first source of M269 from the Steppe into the rest of Europe. Pre Yamnaya times.
Click to expand...

I still favour this theory of Anthony except for the horseriding part 4000 BC.
It is also not clear whether these people where the Anatolians.
Neither Haak nor Allentoft mention the Anatolian branch in their study.
It seems like nobody dares to take position about that branch any more.
 
Maciamo said:
This is the map I made five years ago to show the division between the R1a forest-steppe zone (in yellow) and the R1b steppe zone (in red) within the Yamna culture. All the Yamna samples tested so far come from the red zone (of the grey Volga-Ural region following the R1b arrow on the right).
Click to expand...

It's very impressive that you got that right 5 years ago!!

BTW, Ancient West Eurasian Y DNA.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12G2cfjG0wHWarsl5bB99ridFmvUWzqlZfZ6_e_R6oIA/edit
 
Iberia is the region where Non-Indo-European languages were widely spoken until the Roman conquest of Iberia.

And Iberia is also one of the most M269-rich regions of Europe, most of this R1b appears to be of DF27 subclade.

So I am wondering that perhaps not all of M269 which came to Europe from the steppe, were Indo-Europeans:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...n-Iberian-data?p=460116&viewfull=1#post460116

Speakers of Non-IE Iberian languages - who continued to live in Iberia until historic times (though they were intermingled with Celtic-speakers and with Non-Celtic IE speakers in the region, such as the Lusitanian-speakers) - could already have that R1b DF27 haplogroup.

Here are examples of already extinct, but recorded in history, Non-IE languages of Iberia:

Iberian - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_language
Tartessian - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessian_language
Aquitanian - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquitanian_language
Turdetanian - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turdetani

Turdetanian was closely related to Tartessian.

And already extinct Non-Celtic IE languages spoken in ancient Iberia included for example:

Lusitanian - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusitanian_language
Sorothaptic - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorothaptic_language

And of course there were also Celtic languages in Iberia, which also got extinct later:

Celtiberian - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtiberian_language
Gallaecian - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallaecian_language

So despite having a hodge-podge of Non-IE, Celtic, and Non-Celtic IE languages, we have a surprising Y-DNA homogeneity.

In any case, it seems that DF27 is the most native of all R1b lineages in Iberia.

So it would seem that DF27 was the lineage of Non-IE speakers, and modern frequency among the Basques confirms it.

It does not mean that it did not come from the steppe, though. Question is if those were originally Indo-Europeans, or not.
Click to expand...
Iberia is an interesting case because it was one of places where Non-IE languages survived for a very long time.

Non-IE languages in Iberia survived until the Roman conquest and until the adoption of Latin by its people.

(...) we do know that until the very Roman conquest in Iberia there lived at least as many Non-IE speakers as IE speakers.

Does it mean that not only Indo-Europeans came from the steppe, and that not all of R1b M269 people spoke Indo-European?

Or do we really believe that all those Non-IE Iberians, Tartessians, Aquitanians and Turdetanians were Non-R1b peoples?
Click to expand...

In Iberia Indo-European languages did not displace Non-IE languages completely until all of them were replaced by Latin.

But Latin expanded in Iberia through cultural transition. The Romans did not bring DF27 to Iberia, it was there before.

So it is very likely that all those Non-Indo-European speakers in ancient Iberia had DF27 subclade of R1b.
 
Last edited:
Only a Pole could have made such a wrong map.

ejhg2015114f1.jpg


Oldest U152 has been found in Bavarian Bell Beaker, while oldest U106 has been found in Swedish Battle Axe.
 
Only a Pole could have made such a wrong map.
Click to expand...

Thanks, but it is not my map. :)

It is from the new study on Iberian R1b. It was made by the following people:

Laura Valverde, Maria José Illescas, Patricia Villaescusa, Amparo M Gotor, Ainara García, Sergio Cardoso, Jaime Algorta, Susana Catarino, Karen Rouault, Claude Férec, Orla Hardiman, Maite Zarrabeitia, Susana Jiménez, Maria Fátima Pinheiro, Begoña M Jarreta, Jill Olofsson, Niels Morling and Marian M de Pancorbo
Click to expand...

Typically Polish surnames! You were right! At least Orla Hard-i-man must be Polish. :)
 
Tomenable said:
Iberia is the region where Non-Indo-European languages were widely spoken until the Roman conquest of Iberia.

And Iberia is also one of the most M269-rich regions of Europe, most of this R1b appears to be of DF27 subclade.

So I am wondering that perhaps not all of M269 which came to Europe from the steppe, were Indo-Europeans:

In Iberia Indo-European languages did not displace Non-IE languages completely until all of them were replaced by Latin.

But Latin expanded in Iberia through cultural transition. The Romans did not bring DF27 to Iberia, it was there before.

So it is very likely that all those Non-Indo-European speakers in ancient Iberia had DF27 subclade of R1b.
Click to expand...

You apparently really want to believe this, but there is absolutely no way that you can reach that conclusion based on the evidence we have so far, and most particularly not about DF27.

See post #15: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ed-on-modern-Iberian-data?p=460168#post460168

"If some steppe R1b people did not speak Indo-European languages, then it would make sense of it all neatly, but that would be turning everything on its head. Where would they have come from that they didn't speak a form of Indo-European? If they stayed on the steppe until 3,000 BC or so how could they have avoided speaking Indo-European? Maybe they were in Cucuteni or somewhere else in the Balkans where they adopted the languages of the Neolithic farmers? Or maybe they moved to certain areas in the Balkans before Indo-European was really established and then got pushed out? This is just wild, idle speculation though, unsupported by any evidence. Then there's the question of how did they get to eastern Spain, although we could speculate it was by sea. Might they have been connected with Or were those people J2? If the ancestors of the Iberians were R1b they would presumably carried upstream clades though, yes?

Of course, there's always Koch out there who purports to think that Tartessian is Celtic, and that Celtic developed out of the Atlantic Bronze Age, but he doesn't seem to have convinced many people, and it doesn't explain all the R1b in the eastern parts of Spain.

In terms of other explanations for the route of the Celtic languages into Iberia, there does seem to be a definite "western" tilt to them,yes? So, if they came into Iberia from central Europe relatively late, did they come through the Pyrenees at the western end, or did they wind up there because the areas further east were more densely populated? Or, might the western areas have been more suited to cattle herding than the east? I don't know enough about land use in ancient Iberia to have a definite opinion, but it seems possible. Someone you quoted speculated that the high DF27 in the Basques proves that was the route. I don't see that as necessarily the case given how young the Basque clades are and the fact that this looks so much like a pretty recent founder effect.

Speaking of the Basques, Aquitanian looks as if it's related to Basque, and I've seen speculations that the Basques are descended from Aquitanians who retreated into the Pyrenees. Then supposedly men from the surrounding area, R1b men, and downstream DF27 at that, married into the community but adopted the language of their wives. It could happen, I'm sure, but we're talking about huge swathes of the Iberian peninsula where we would have to hypothesize that this happened. Of course, we don't have good data or at least extensive data from Aquitaine in France, so maybe DF7 is very concentrated there as well. If it is, then we've got a whole other large area where steppe people adopted other languages.

I don't know about Iberian either. It used to be speculated that the Ligures and the Iberians were related peoples, both being descendents of the Cardial Neolithic. Then linguists started saying the ancient Ligurian language (not the modern Ligurian variant of Italian) was an Indo-European language from before Italo-Celtic differentiated. Nothing like that is claimed for Iberian however. So perhaps it's true for both the ancient Ligurian and Iberian peoples, but the Ligurians mixed with an Indo-European group arriving from the area of modern France, and later "Celtic" speakers once again arrived in the first millenium BC, creating the documented Celt-Ligurians, and that nothing similar happened with the Iberians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligures

Maybe, until very late in the game, R1b was more frequent in the west but everything got mixed because of the planned population relocations during the Reconquista. I've always felt that given that fact it's very difficult to figure out the movement of R1b into and around the Iberian peninsula. "
 
That map makes no sense. Highest diversity of P312 is near the Alps, not on the French/Spanish border. Also U152 has been found among Bavarian Bell Beakers, so it spread North to South.

It looks like people keep thrwowing guesses around, just like with the out of India R1a theory.
 
Sile said:
thanks

I do not see Haak 2015................. 69 ancient samples...........are they included in your ancient dna link?
Click to expand...

on page 25 of Haak 2015 paper, the following markers are late Neolitihic ( 6000BC - 4500BC )

they are
1 x R1a
2 x R1b
4 x G2a
1 x T1a
1 x F*
1 x H2
4 x I2a
1 x I2c

on a side note, do these I2a+c in sweden have anything to do with the Remedello 3 x I2a found recently?
 
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