Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Johane Derite]

Google translated:

"For Illyrian itself, which, according to the findings given here, cannot be continued in modern Albanian, it can finally be established with regard to its linguistic history that, like other local languages ​​in the Balkans, apart from Greek and the precursor of Albanian, it has gradually been abandoned would.


After the territorial integration of the Illyrian area under the Roman rulership structure, the speakers of Illyrian will probably have switched to Latin after a certain phase of bilingualism, as can also be observed in other areas of the ancient world, where Roman rule in the course of the The change to Latin followed (see for example Italy, where the local Italian languages ​​but also Etruscan was abandoned with the expansion of Rome, or Gaul, where the Celtic variety shows gave way to Latin; see here e.g. Budinszky 1881 and Adams 2004 ).


The circumstances under which this language change from Illyrian to Latin took place, for how long a bilingual phase can be assumed and how long remains of Illyrian could have been preserved in post-ancient times cannot be determined due to a lack of data.

Pg 167"

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

I sent an email to several people now. Maybe they will read his book and reply.

 

[Southpaw]

Google translated:

"For Illyrian itself, which, according to the findings given here, cannot be continued in modern Albanian, it can finally be established with regard to its linguistic history that, like other local languages ​​in the Balkans, apart from Greek and the precursor of Albanian, it has gradually been abandoned would.


After the territorial integration of the Illyrian area under the Roman rulership structure, the speakers of Illyrian will probably have switched to Latin after a certain phase of bilingualism, as can also be observed in other areas of the ancient world, where Roman rule in the course of the The change to Latin followed (see for example Italy, where the local Italian languages ​​but also Etruscan was abandoned with the expansion of Rome, or Gaul, where the Celtic variety shows gave way to Latin; see here e.g. Budinszky 1881 and Adams 2004 ).


The circumstances under which this language change from Illyrian to Latin took place, for how long a bilingual phase can be assumed and how long remains of Illyrian could have been preserved in post-ancient times cannot be determined due to a lack of data.

Pg 167"

The question arises, is Albanoid a language already spoken and brought by Yamnaya in 3-2nd millenium B.C, or it was brought in Late Bronze Age by Gava/Channeled-Ware?

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

Google translated:

"For Illyrian itself, which, according to the findings given here, cannot be continued in modern Albanian, it can finally be established with regard to its linguistic history that, like other local languages ​​in the Balkans, apart from Greek and the precursor of Albanian, it has gradually been abandoned would.


After the territorial integration of the Illyrian area under the Roman rulership structure, the speakers of Illyrian will probably have switched to Latin after a certain phase of bilingualism, as can also be observed in other areas of the ancient world, where Roman rule in the course of the The change to Latin followed (see for example Italy, where the local Italian languages ​​but also Etruscan was abandoned with the expansion of Rome, or Gaul, where the Celtic variety shows gave way to Latin; see here e.g. Budinszky 1881 and Adams 2004 ).


The circumstances under which this language change from Illyrian to Latin took place, for how long a bilingual phase can be assumed and how long remains of Illyrian could have been preserved in post-ancient times cannot be determined due to a lack of data.

Pg 167"

There is too much cultural material that indicates Albanians originated in the Western Balkans. And this guy is going to get debunked like everyone else. So enjoy the bandwagon while it lasts. His arguments seem to mainly be based on some words with 'un' 'um' or 'ul 'ur' sounds. Which essentially could of developed different over time.

The fact he claims Albanian is related to Messapian, which left the Western Balkans, but not to Illyrian which would, if not Albanian, been a neighbor of Albanian for much longer is extremely dubious. Thracian/Dacian is a totally different language from Albanian and cannot even be grouped together. In this case of words and place names composed of a single unit Albanian is more in agreement with Illyrian.

That proto-Ilyrians might of been from East Alpine block is nothing new

 

[Johane Derite]

The question arises, is Albanoid a language already spoken and brought by Yamnaya in 3-2nd millenium B.C, or it was brought in Late Bronze Age by Gava/Channeled-Ware?

I really don't know. For a few reasons I think Albanian is more a Yamnaya language, but on the other side the Albanian. karpë - carpathian connection makes me think that the larger Albanoid group must have some relation to the Carpathian mountains, I am equally torn to be honest.

The thing with proto-Albanians is that we know that the core of them must have been shepherds since this is the part of the vocabulary that is most untouched, so in priority we should localise them first. But the thing that is difficult with this is also that in the past some shepherds moved intense distances, I can't remember where I read a claim that some possibly moved from Carpathians to Anatolia and back again as part of their cycles.

So this further makes it difficult.

 

[Southpaw]

I sent an email to several people now. Maybe they will read his book and reply.

Why would you send email to several people? This is so weird. You are like desperately trying to force other people to think like you to project self-serving theories/hypothesis.

 

[Southpaw]

I really don't know. For a few reasons I think Albanian is more a Yamnaya language, but on the other side the Albanian. karpë - carpathian connection makes me think that the larger Albanoid group must have some relation to the Carpathian mountains, I am equally torn to be honest.

The thing with proto-Albanians is that we know that the core of them must have been shepherds since this is the part of the vocabulary that is most untouched, so in priority we should localise them first. But the thing that is difficult with this is also that in the past some shepherds moved intense distances, I can't remember where I read a claim that some possibly moved from Carpathians to Anatolia and back again as part of their cycles.

So this further makes it difficult.

Let's see how things work out. Things are getting clearer and clearer.

I have read Riverman saying that none of Yamnaya IE languages survived, but i have yet to read something conclusive about that.

 

[Johane Derite]

Let's see how things work out. Things are getting clearer and clearer.

I have read Riverman saying that none of Yamnaya IE languages survived, but i have yet to read something conclusive about that.

Yes, with more samples things will be clearer. Albanian and Messapic are both languages that are neither Centum nor Satem according to Matzinger, this is why I think this must be an archaic Yamnaya feature that was later lost in Centum and Satem languages.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

Mountaints of Giants: A Cultural and racial study on the North Albanian Mountain Ghegs - Carleton Coon

All of the evidence which we have indicates that close kinsmen of the Glasinac people were the very ones who settled Ghegnia, at just about the tune the cemetery was in use. We have every reason to suppose that the ancestors of the Ghegs, in the last 500 years before the Christian era, their pioneer period, were very much like the people whose remains were buried in the graveyard at Glasinac.

Such careful observers of material culture as Nopcsa and Haberlandt have concluded that the Ghegs, in their tools, agricultural imple- ments, furniture, costumes, arid most other technological details are still living in the Hallstatt Iron Age.

Let us return for a moment to the statement that the Ghegs are still living in the Hallstatt Iron Age. This means that no important changes have taken place in their technological processes. If the lllyrians had just as good equipment for tilling the soil, processing food- stuffs, building houses, weaving doth, etc., as the modem Mountain Ghegs, then they were able to exploit the landscape just as efficiently as their modern descendants. The valleys and upland pastures of Ghegnia could thus have held as large a population then as today.

A single conclusion Is therefore as legitimate as, it is obvious. The mountains of Ghegnia were first effectively populated during the middle centuries of the first millennium before Christ. The pioneers who took over this rugged landscape were Illyrians, whose central territory lay to the northwest. Since they had already lived in Bosnia and Montenegro, they were already adjusted; to life in this environment.

Biologically the significance of this is of course that while the original settlers of our area must have been a mixed lot, they were probably able to fill their country with progeny before any concerted attempts were made by outsiders to Invade their territory. The majority of them were undoubtedly llyrians from Bosnia, while others may have been Thracians from the plains to the northeast. Racially they were probably a mixture of Nordics, Mediterraneans from the Adriatic littoral, brachycephals from the same region, and Pontic Mediterraneans from the Euxine borderlands. They were able to stew in their own genetic juice and produce their own variety of human beings.

Bronze Age sites have never been located in the highlands. This is not for lack of archaeological research, since a number of Iron Age locations have been discovered and excavated in that area. 4 These sites consist of tumuli. Such grave-mounds have been ex- cavated in Hoti (Malsia e Madhe), Dushmani (Malsia e Jakoves), Mirdita, and Mati. The material removed from them is of regular HaUstatt type; in fact, Munghin says that the objects from north of the Drin are identical with the type specimens from Glasinac and Dolje Dolina, type sites of the Hallstatt civilization in Bosnia. 5
This evidence confirms that of tradition, that the Gheg country was a part of the llyrian domain.

the published reproductions of these objects and who is familiar with the Glasinac artifacts, states that the Albanian collections include Roman objects and others which are presumably Thracian- This evidence would set the date of the sites nearer to a.d 1 than 500 bc.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

The most probable predecessor of Albanian was Illyrian, since much of the present-day Albania was inhabited by the Illyrians during the Antiquity, but the comparison of the two languages is impossible because almost nothing is known about Illyrian, despite the fact that two handbooks of that language have been published (by Hans Krahe and Anton Mayer)... examination of personal names and toponyms from Illyricum shows that several onomastic areas can be distinguished, and these onomastic areas just might correspond to different languages spoken in ancient Illyricum. If Illyrians actually spoke several different languages, the question arises -from which 'Illyrian' language did Albanian develop, and that question cannot be answered until new data are discovered.The single "Illyrian" gloss preserved in Greek (rhínon 'fog') may have the reflex in Alb. (Gheg) re͂ 'cloud' (Tosk re)< PAlb. *ren-."

Matasovic 2019

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

Completely agree. I get the same impression, that they're basically using the same logic as nationalistic Balkan YouTube commenters. I think studying Albanian in itself and it's relation to say Latin, Aromanian, Greek or even Slavic is way more useful than comparing it to some dubious reconstructed Illyrian language.

They are butthurt because no EV-13 was found in Western Balkans so far so they are claiming now EV-13 was proto-Albanoid and bandwagon these dubious claims :bigsmile:

If you look at some other examples I made you can see how Albanian language could of never come from the classical Thracian or Dacian languages.
''Undocumented Paleo-Balkan language'' . Hilarious.

What these people claim makes absolutely no sense from a historical perspective. Especially in regards to Albanian and Messapian and both most likely originating in the classical area of what was known as ''Illyria'' most likely.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

More and more facts that E-V13 Z5018 was the progenitor of Proto-Albanoids. Very likely one of the languages of Gava/Channeled-Ware people.

There is not a single fact that point to that, at least not of what I have seen. At least not in terms of cultural and linguistic studies on the Albanians. All point to a strong cultural influence from the Glasinac and Hallstatt culture. A cultural influence from Illyrians. And a relationship to Messapian. All point to a Western Balkan origin. And based on the samples we have found so far in the North-Western Balkans close to that area they were all J2b2 and R1b. Not a single EV-13 found so far making it unlikely proto-Albanians were EV-13.

 

[Southpaw]

There is not a single fact that point to that, at least not of what I have seen. At least not in terms of cultural and linguistic studies on the Albanians. All point to a strong cultural influence from the Glasinac and Hallstatt culture. A cultural influence from Illyrians. And a relationship to Messapian. All point to a Western Balkan origin. And based on the samples we have found so far in the North-Western Balkans close to that area they were all J2b2 and R1b. Not a single EV-13 found so far making it unlikely proto-Albanians were EV-13.

Those outdated studies you quote need to be dumped into junk.

The only Balkan Y-DNA constantly found in Hallstatt was E-V13 but the period between Albanians and Hallstatt is hilarious to make any claims.

You have one serious study and various other studies claiming Albanian didn't descend from Western Balkans/Dalmatian region rather more inland Central Balkans. We go with evidences.

Overall from South to North E-V13 is very consistent among Albanians.

As for the rest, you have a mental breakdown stemming from narcissism and self-grandeur symptoms.

We are actually open to every scenario and we were discussing politely until you came spewing bullshit with provokations, and we don't b i t c h all over the place like you do.

 

[Johane Derite]

Martin Huld, who was very kind and fair towards Albanians also was very clear that Albanian could not descend from the Adriatic Illyrian language. He tried to be polite about it by saying sure someone may have called them Illyrians also, but his conclusion nonetheless was that Albanian did not descend from the Illyrians we are arguing about.

Likewise, countless other linguists and archaeologists like Lippert, Matzinger, Shumacher (these two who are the first ones to do a systematic study of Old Albanian texts) etc, all argue for problems in Illyrian to Albanian descendance.

I myself was always sceptical and still am, but there is obviously something being picked up on here when a similar signal is coming from across many scientific domains (archaeology, linguistics, and genetics).

Now also there are serious problems with the communist narrative about the transition of Illyrians into Albanians that was offered via the Komani culture, since it is evident that there were many migratory populations present in this culture (with some coming from as far as Asia), so the narrative of local illyrians retreating into the mountains and becoming Albanians doesn't make sense.

 

[exercitus]

The notions/features of 'Interpretatio Romana' and 'Interpretatio Graeca' are mentioned and properly analyzed by Matzinger !?
That's because we are dealing with a small incongruence here, the Sicilian city of Soluntum and the Apulian city of Odruntum passed in classical Latin in this specific form because of the Greek desinence -οῦντος, did Matzinger took into account this option (beside the hypothetical 'Illyrian' reflex /n̩/ in the exonyms Petuntium and Diluntium) !?
Also how did he etymologize and analyze other 'Illyrian' toponyms such as Malata & Dimallum (considering the analogy with Maluntum/Malontum) !?

And how would became the IE *uĺ̥kʷos (throught the reflex /l̩/) in modern Albanian !?
How does Matzinger etymologize the plenty of Illyrian toponyms/anthroponyms with the -ulc root !?

That's why Genetics and Molecular Biology are my favorite scientific fields, no BS and 'playing' with the wind here !!

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

I think Michiel De Vaan also seems to claim Gheg-Tosk split happened before Slavic incursion as did Eric Hamp

 

[exercitus]

I hope Matzinger didn't miss this little detail !!

Concretely:

The ancient Greek toponyms formed with the ending -οῦς, gen. -οῦντος (transliterated -oûs, -oûntos, which in Italian gives -unte, like Μυοῦς, Miunte), transposed into Latin, occur partly with the exit -entum, and partly with the exit -untum; cf. Πυξοῦς (Pyxoûs), later Latinized in Buxentum in Lucania, and Σολοῦς (Soloûs) or Soluntum, in Sicily. In modern Greek, the names formerly formed with the suffix -οῦς have today instead the output in -οῦντα (-oûnta), compare the ancient Trebizond (Τραπεζοῦς, Trapezoûs, in Italian Trapezunte), whose Greek name today is Τραπεζούντα (Trapezoúnta ). From the classical Greek Ὑδροῦς could therefore result both the Latin Hydruntum, that Hydrentum, or rather Hudrentum.
https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otranto

Deepening and investigating the question of the origin of Albanians through Genetics seems to me the most reasonable and conclusive approach at this point!!!

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

'Ul' and 'Ur' is also something that occurs in the Romanian language such as 'Surdul' which is a Vlach name I believe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surdul

Anyway these type do not occur in all Illyrian toponyms and I believe it's something that can change we also don't know what branches of Illyrian there were as I quoted above. This is a seriously weak argument that we are supposedly looking at different languages. No offence. There are also forms and suffixes of names and words that have changed if you study proto-Albanian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Albanian_language

The example I showed with Albanian and Thracian/Dacian is more evident that we are looking at two different structured languages, at least to me.

 

[exercitus]

Then i noticed something else; how it is possible that all the presumed 'Illyrian' toponyms with the desinence -untum are concentrated in Dalmatia, and strangely all nearby Greek Colonies (!!?), i mean where are the other similar toponyms in the 'Illyrian' hinterland ?
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-...-Ealk/s1600/GreekCitiesMapIllyriaAdriatic.png

 

[broder]

PF7563 already is rumoured in Early Bronze Age Albania, so a remnant of Yamnaya very likely, which Balkan IE, unable to determine.

E-V13 so far is the confirmed South-Eastern Urnfield lineage (Gava descended people, scattered in 4 different Hallstatt La Tene sites, although minimal but present), and from historical population it is the Geto - Thracians that carried en mass. I expect Dardanians, Paeonians, Enchelei, and Iron Age Greeks to carry as well.

If Illyrian was East Alpine Block language it's not a language derived from Yamnaya, but from Bell-Beakers, that's a simple math.

What Matzinger is leaving blank is what is the relationship of Greek, Thracian, Phrygian, Albanian, Messapian if they are Balkan IE. Are they all Yamnaya derived, or some of them came during LBA?

I am just going by what has been published, when I see it I will believe it. Too bad those Dauni samples are of low quality and we can't see what they are. If they made their way across the Adriatic from southern Albania as is postulated, maybe one of those M269 fellas may be PF7563 (if they are not Z2103 or L51). Anyway, I guess at least one of them is PH1602- so that trajectory may be correct.

Yeah, saw them. They seem like outliers though with that southern drift - and obviously missing from the earlier periods. There is also a Y15058 in Vas County, Hungary in La Tene contexts, so things don't seem that simple.

Let's wait for that upcoming paper.