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Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

This book is literally co-authored with Andreas Lippert and the first half of the book is only about the archaeology of the Illyrians, the second half is about their language.
He hasn't debunked countless times as you claim. So much nonsense in one comment

You didn't quote any archeological part from the book, what does he say about Glasinac in particular? Does he mention the Pannonian/Koszider/Tumulus/Danubian Urnfield influence during Late Bronze Age?
 
You didn't quote any archeological part from the book, what does he say about Glasinac in particular? Does he mention the Pannonian/Koszider/Tumulus/Danubian Urnfield influence during Late Bronze Age?

I went straight to the linguistic part and have been reading through it slowly, i still haven't read the archaeological part.

I will try post as much interesting stuff as i can
 
I went straight to the linguistic part and have been reading through it slowly, i still haven't read the archaeological part.
I will try post as much interesting stuff as i can

Ah, alright, take your time, a bit of insight on that part would be illuminating as well so we can scope it down the possible scenarios.
 
Matzinger is just following the data and is the most updated linguist dealing both in specialised Albanian and Old Albanian and ancient balkan languages. He is also not alone, this is what is most updated. He would not argue for Messapic-Albanian relations for some sort of agenda, since this language is even more western than Illyrian.

Also his reference here to the Ostalpenblock (East Alpine Block) is based on linguist Peter Anreiter's work, he is just in agreement more or less (but he does say "cautiously").

But this paradigm of Messapic not being Illyrian is interesting (he says that Messapic and Illyrian would have had contacts in the balkan stage though).

According to him Messapic is a typical language of the Balkan IE group like Phrygian, Armenian, Albanian, Thracian, and Greek. The East Alpine Block group is not part of this group but had contacts with it according to him.

Herodotus actually wrote the the Messapians came from Crete:

"§ 7.170 For the story goes that Minos, having come to Sicania, which is now called Sicily, in search of Daidalos, died there by a violent death; and after a time the Cretans, urged thereto by a god, all except the men of Polichne and Praisos, came with a great armament to Sicania and besieged for seven years the city of Camicos, which in my time was occupied by the Agrigentines; and at last not being able either to capture it or to remain before it, because they were hard pressed by famine, they departed and went away.

And when, as they sailed, they came to be off the coast of Iapygia, a great storm seized them and cast them away upon the coast; and their vessels being dashed to pieces, they, since they saw no longer any way of coming to Crete, founded there the city of Hyria; and there they stayed and were changed so that they became instead of Cretans, Messapians of Iapygia, and instead of islanders, dwellers on the mainland: then from the city of Hyria they founded those other settlements which the Tarentines long afterwards endeavoured to destroy and suffer great disaster in that enterprise, so that this in fact proved to be the greatest slaughter of Hellenes that is known to us, and not only of the Tarentines themselves but of those citizens of Rhegion who were compelled by Mikythos the son of Choiros to go to the assistance of the Tarentines, and of whom there were slain in this manner three thousand men: of the Tarentines themselves however, who were slain there, there was no numbering made. This Mikythos, who was a servant of Anaxilaos, had been left by him in charge of Rhegion; and he it was who after being driven out of Rhegion took up his abode at Tegea of the Arcadians and dedicated those many statues at Olympia."

He's not following any kind of data but is creating tin foil hat theories without any evidence and talking about things and people that we know so little about to make any definitive conclusions yet makes the most bewildering claims. He even got debunked when he claimed Shkoder, Lezha toponyms could of not developed out of Albanian for example when it was shown by others that these type of changes happened in so many Albanian words. His early work on Albanian was also an entire copy paste of Schramm's Bessi theory which he later changed his mind and abandoned.

There is no sufficient evidence to claim Illyrian did not belong to any of these blocks or that these blocks form a group. Venetic scriptures for example, which was used before to claim Illyrian was centum, was not Illyrian therefor Illyrian was satem most likely. Also for example Thracian does not match Albanian, the combination of words in Thracian is impossible in the Albanian language. The suffix of many Dacian and Thracian settlements also never happened in Albanian. Which leaves Albanian as no other than Illyrian and more Illyrian place names do match Albanian.



Eric Hamp links Albanian to Messapian. See his study on Albanian and Messapian.

Messapians were definitely Illyrian, they came from Illyrian territory and their names were Illyrian such as Dalmatae, Bardylis, Teuta etc are all names used by the Messapians same as in Illyrian and they also had tribal names as the Illyrians. That some of their ancestors might of come from Sicily or Crete is completely irrelevant, going by names they were completely assimilated into an Illyrian ethnos. This is also evident by it's link to Albanian, another West Balkan group. These are not coincidences.

Herodotus claiming the Messapians came from Crete is most likely also false and is not linked to any kind of historical evidence. Same way Barleti claimed the Albanians came from Colchis, to the mountains of Italy and then settled Macedonia and descendants from Hercules or something like that. Or how Albanians descendant from the Epiroti or how Ancient Greeks and Illyrians descendant from pagan gods. It's all romanticism. That's why he says ''The story goes...'' meaning it's just a story of course.
 
Ah, alright, take your time, a bit of insight on that part would be illuminating as well so we can scope it down the possible scenarios.

I'm reading through the archaeology section, it isn't as detailed in some sections (like the earlier phases of Glasinac) and quite detailed in some other later parts.

Glasinac remained almost "untouched" by the urnfield culture according to him:

Google translated:


B.3.4 On the spread of the urn field culture in the Balkans


In the 12.h. The Belegis II Gava culture is established in southern Vojvodina and in northern Serbia. In the middle Morava basin and in eastern Serbia the Parac’in group emerges, in the upper Morava valley, also in eastern Kosovo / Kosova, the Brnjica group. All these groups are identified by cremation or urn burial and by typical forms of the often fluted ceramics and bronzes of the urn field culture and lived on until the 10th century.


In western Serbia and in eastern and central Bosnia, on the other hand, the Glasinac group maintains body burial. It remains almost untouched by the urn field culture. In north-western Serbia and in the eastern Sava valley, the early Iron Age KalakaEa horizon in the 9th and then the Basarabi horizon in the 8th century (both are considered to be part of the Bosut culture) again predominantly bring body burial, while in the upper Morava region Form of the LapotinceVla§tice group, cremation continues to predominate (Ljustona / Dmitrovic ':
2020).


Ceramics and bronze molds thus attest to the presence of the Central European Pannonian urn field culture in the Danube, Sava and Morava valleys (b Fig. 6). Of course, weapons, devices and even certain forms of jewelry from the urn field culture have also been distributed or imitated in other parts of the Balkans via a wide-ranging exchange network, but to a considerably lesser extent. In the 10th century the relationships gradually subsided: regional variations of the urn field shapes are still present everywhere (Prendi 1982, 224, fig. 12, 15; Gavranovié 2017, fig. 1).


It is also noticeable that certain bronzes, such as sickles of the Uioara 2 type, flamed lance tips or handle-tongue swords of the N aue 11 type, appear from the outset only in the Danube and Sava valleys, i.e. remain in the area of ​​the Urnfield culture. A heavily modified variant of the handle-tongue swords, which were only released at the end of the 12th century. originates on the southern Balkan peninsula and has a rapier-like blade and two tack rivets, but is also widespread in Albania.


The earthenware in central Bosnia was subject to certain influences of the urnfield culture. There are vessels with a cylindrical or conical neck, but traditional forms predominate in grave and settlement ceramics.


These are above all amphorae and kantharos, the lower half of which is mostly ovoid or rounded. Their development can be traced for a very long time up to the Iron Age (Gavranovié 2011, 98-102, Tab. 7). Grosso modo, these ceramic forms can also be found in the further south and possibly also in the grave pottery of Velika Gruda on the Montenegrin Adriatic.


In the 12th century In the south-western Balkans, a ceramic ornament style emerges, which is composed of numerous geometric incised motifs (see online Fig. 3). These are zigzag patterns, arcs, rhombuses, cube eyes or rows of hatched triangles. All of these elements exist in various combinations (Gavranovié 2011, Fig. 127).


Some of the geometric ornaments, such as the hatched triangles or spirals, have appeared on heavy bronze jewelry in Gréibern and Horten am Glasinac in the wider area since the early Late Bronze Age, i.e. the 14th century.


It should be noted, however, that similar motifs, as are typical for incised ceramics, can already be found on metal and clay vessels of the Middle and Late Bronze Age in Siebenburgen, Oltenia and Bulgaria. It seems that many motifs from these areas were taken over by the incised pottery.


It is nevertheless strange that there is a lack of cultural-geographical links. In any case, new elements are added to the incised ceramics over time (Gavranovié 2020 a).


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Lippert's map of Illyrian tribes in the 4th century BC has some quite different things I haven't seen before.

Dardani he doesn't count as illyrian for one, but the Pirustae he places in west Kosova, the Glasinac area.

Some people argue that Pirustae is a translation of Dardanai (Pirus: Pear, Dardhë: Pear), so maybe this was an "Illyrianised" Dardanian group if he is correct?

Enchelei he places around lake shkodra, Brygi he counts as Illyrian?

J2dNh8Y.png
 
Actually, i can see from quotes and explanations that this is a very robust study. He quotes both Prendi and Gavranovic.

So, it's either Tumulus-grave/Koszider hoard that were Proto-Illyrian just before the Gava Culture(E-V13 heavy) invasion from Carpathians to Pannonia when they were pushing the Koszider hoard down to Glasinac, or it's a Bell-Beaker spin-off culture from late EBA from somewhere from the Alps that were the Proto-Illyrians.

Of course going by this model.
 
Actually, i can see from quotes and explanations that this is a very robust study. He quotes both Prendi and Gavranovic.

So, it's either Tumulus-grave/Koszider hoard that were Proto-Illyrian just before the Gava Culture(E-V13 heavy) invasion from Carpathians to Pannonia when they were pushing the Koszider hoard down to Glasinac, or it's a Bell-Beaker spin-off culture from late EBA from somewhere from the Alps that were the Proto-Illyrians.

Of course going by this model.

The post tenth century has very high detail, with analyis of diet, livestock, tools, that illyrians used, etc.

Just for the origins of Glasinac, which it the illyrian material culture for him also, he doesnt go too in depth he only mentions steppes, vucedol etc. I will keep reading
 
Lippert's map of Illyrian tribes in the 4th century BC has some quite different things I haven't seen before.

Dardani he doesn't count as illyrian for one, but the Pirustae he places in west Kosova, the Glasinac area.

Some people argue that Pirustae is a translation of Dardanai (Pirus: Pear, Dardhë: Pear), so maybe this was an "Illyrianised" Dardanian group if he is correct?

Enchelei he places around lake shkodra, Brygi he counts as Illyrian?

J2dNh8Y.png

Well, i doubt the Enchelei were from around lake Shkodra, must have been some late groups, because the original Enchelei/Sesarethi lived around Lake Ohrid. It was actually mentioned even before that Pirusti might have been descended from Enchelei after they dissapearance from historical records.

On this occasion, special attention is given to the Tomb of the Warriors (Tomb 1) in which 6 warriors were buried together with their complete military armor. The tomb (dimensions: 5.50 x 4.50 m) was built with a row of larger limestone blocks, and after the cremation burial it was filled with amorphous stones and earth, shaping a low mound-like structure. The pyre was set in the central part of the tomb, and around it, embedded and arranged in a specially brought lake sand, were the military attributes: 6 bronze helmets, 11 greaves, and 15 iron spears, with features suggesting some military subordination or simply warriors who have died in a battle being “the Leader and his comrades.”
https://pebasite.wordpress.com/peba-2020/representations-of-power-an-ancient-macedonian-elite/

They practiced the burial rite of cremation on a pyre having underneath a tumuli, i guess they possibly might have been Gava Culture descendants. Let's see.
 
Illyrians most likely as a group of people already formed during the Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age at the very least. And actually my mistake, it seems I misread Herodotus. And I haven't studies this topic enough nor the arrival into Italy of the Messapians. I thought he meant that they were Cretans that settled the Western Balkans. But this is what I got from an Italian source and wiki.

The Illyrians in Italy, united with the pre-existing people and groups from the Aegean, probably from Crete, created the Iapygian civilization which consisted of three tribes: the Peucetians, Messapians and Daunians

The idea they were Cretans seems to be merely based on that the Proto-Illyrians that arrived to Italy mingled with a Cretan people basically ? It's possible Messapian essentially did develop different from Illyrian but related in this case obviously. But most of Messapian seems to be related to Illyrians or proto-Illyrians based on names and god worshipping. And a part of these people clearly came at one point from the Western Balkans. And it's relation to Albanian again shows this too and that his theory that Albanian did not develop out of Illyrian nor Messapian has no compelling evidence again. Since there is clearly a strong link with the Messapians, Proto-Illyrians and Albanians.

Not only that but the name Iapygian is similar to the Illyrian name Iapodes for example. And it's clear to me these names have the same origin. So Herodotus is wrong in this regard. The Messapians did not come from Crete where this name was suddenly picked up but they came from Illyria where similar names can be seen. The name can be traced to Illyrian. There are more names as I mentioned.

Some deities of native origin have also been highlighted by scholars, such as Zis ('sky-god'), Menzanas ('lord of horses'), Venas ('desire'), Taotor ('the people, community'), and perhaps Damatura ('mother-earth')

They also worshipped Illyrian gods.

So clearly large part of these people did originate from Proto-Illyrian/Illyrians most likely. As can also be seen with the link to Albanian which also most likely developed out of Illyrian unless you're saying Albanian came from Cretans too which would be nonsense of course.
 
Actually Albanian archeologists already were aware that Illyrians were formed by different material cultures with the most prominent being Glasinac-Mat(more Northern Illyrians) and Trebeniste Culture(more Southern Illyrians) and everything between them.
 
Bard in Illyrian and Messapian meant grey or white, in Albanian bardh means white for example

Ana was a word for mother in Illyrian as in Messapian. In Gheg Albanian variant Nana means mother. It's possible Messapian was also influenced by Greek and Italic after their arrival to Italy.


Anyway, Matzingers claim that Albanian is not Illyrian nor Thracian but from some undocumented Paleo-Balkan language has no evidence. His claim that Messapian might of not been Illyrian could only be argued on the fact that Messapian, once they settled in Italy, developed different and was influenced by other languages maybe, and not that the Messapians that had come from the Western Balkans were not Illyrians. As the evidence I have seen so far suggest they were Illyrians. And it all certainly does not explain the relationship to Messapian and Albanian where this contact occurred most likely in the Western Balkans which in the antique was inhabited by Illyrian tribes.

Added with that and the fact Albanian does not seem to match Dacian/Thracian and that there is no other mention of any other major IE people in the West Balkans except Illyrian could only put Albanian as Illyrian.
 
On the intense linguistic contacts between Proto-Albanian and Proto-Romanian speakers, they are dated roughly to around the 400-600AD period by Rusakov


The zone of contact is located in the Nish - Sofia - Skopje triangle, a region inhabited by Dardanians, Dentheletae, etc.

I have wondered whether the "Dentheletae" name can have any etymological relation to


Albanian. Dhen (herd of small animals)


from PIE *ǵenh1-ti- ‘family, clan; race’


Possibly meaning "shepherds"?


Compare "çobanët" [shepherds] one of the Albanian names for Aromanians.



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People need to stop quoting Matzinger. He knows less about archeology than a random poster on a forum. The guy thought "degjoj" comes from the word "intelligence", forgetting that "pergjoj" shares the same root word "gjoj" and renders his derivations nonsensical. You know why? Because he doesn't speak Albanian nor is he informed on Illyrian history/archeology. He's just a clown trying to make a quick buck.

He literally knows nothing and his shit has been debunked countless times. Now he's turning into an archeologist? He's not even aware that Illyrian tribes lived north of Bosnia.



Dude, wth are you talking about? The Southern Illyrians are marked by Z638, which northern Illyrians lack.

South Illyrians intermixed with Epirotes and Macedonians. They are going to have "Greek-like" lineages like RZ2103 and EV-13, regardless of origin. There is a reason Albanians/Greeks cluster closely together.

The archeological part which Derite quoted is actually quite robust, he quotes both Prendi and Gavranovic, i mean not Matzinger but professor Andreas Lippert from University of Vienna.

Now, all you bring is mumbo-jumbo coffe cup reading and you expect us to go in line with your biased/self-serving hypothesis? I am pretty sure he is already familiar with everything you already mentioned because i think he is been dealing with this for more than a decade. I am also quite interested to know about more insights.

I have no clue about linguistics, hence we consume what other specialist linguists have to say, he probably knows scientific patterns why he should include or exclude some words.
 
The archeological part which Derite quoted is actually quite robust, he quotes both Prendi and Gavranovic, i mean not Matzinger but professor Andreas Lippert from University of Vienna.

Now, all you bring is mumbo-jumbo coffe cup reading and you expect us to go in line with your biased/self-serving hypothesis? I am pretty sure he is already familiar with everything you already mentioned because i think he is been dealing with this for more than a decade. I am also quite interested to know about more insights.

I have no clue about linguistics, hence we consume what other specialist linguists have to say, he probably knows scientific patterns why he should include or exclude some words.

They are commenting without even reading the book. Really embarassing to be honest. For example he is weary about including "Dardanus/Dardanos" among Illyrian names because "Derdas" which appears among some Macedonians and Epirote royalty. This is quite interesting for many reasons.

aLUOVOv.png
 
Google translated:


Prehistoric research was long burdened by Pan-Illyrian ideas.


Richard Pittioni, for example, assumed that the Central European urn field culture of the late Bronze Age was borne by the Illyrians and spread by them in the course of an "early Illyrian migration" to South Eastern Europe (Pittioni 1961, 280-281). These and similar theories, also in connection with much older cultures, are not to be pursued further here. Rather, modern linguistic research and prehistory are today in a position to paint a more reliable picture of the early Illyrians and their development, if not final.


The ancient sources give sufficient clues for the habitat of Illyrian voices between the Sava in the north, the Morava in the east, the Adriatic in the west and Macedonia and Epirus in the south. An important approach to researching the early culture of the Northern Illyrians presented itself early on with the almost innumerable burial mounds and fortresses on the Glasinac plateau between the upper reaches of the Bosna and the middle reaches of the Drina in Bosnia.


Road works in 1890 prompted the discovery of the first tumuli. Between 1888 and 1897 around 1450 grave guards were uncovered by Truhelka and Fiala, curators at the State Museum in Sarajevo (Hoernes 1889). In the 1950s, several revision excavations were carried out, which brought new insights into the methods of burial and other finds.
Finally, selected grave inventories, especially from the late Bronze and Iron Ages, were presented in catalog form (Benac / Covic ’1956 and 1957). On the basis of this material, the authors created a breakdown into time levels, which is still largely valid today (b Fig. 2). Nora Lucentini tried to arrange these and other previously unpublished grave finds from Glasinac again in a relatively chronological order (Lucentini 1981). Unfortunately, the previous catalogs are still not complete. Rastko Vasié also contributed to the temporal penetration of the Iron Age grave finds in western Serbia and Bosnia, who analyzed richly stocked inventories and hoard finds (Vasic '1977).


A real breakthrough for the ethnic description of Illyrian culture in all its variations and in an already larger area was finally achieved by Hermann Parzinger. The method he used was decisive.


He recorded equipment groups from Glasinac, in Kosovo / Kosova and in northern Albania, which he compared with those from Gréiberfeldern in northern Bosnia and south-eastern Albania. At the same time, he dealt with relevant findings from ancient and linguistic research and came to the conclusion that the results not only complement each other, but also hardly contradict one another (Parzinger 1991).


Fig. 2: Relative chronology in the Central and Western Balkans and in Greece.


The early settlements have not yet been adequately explored. For a long time it was not possible to get beyond the outline sketches of some of the ramparts. The high settlement of Klausura was examined more closely for the first time (Covié 1975 a; Govedarica 1982). Of greater importance, however, are the excavations carried out between 1953 and 1983 on the terraced settlement of Pod near Bugojna on the upper Vrbas (Covic ’1975 b).


The systematic excavation and evaluation of the two giant tumuli Veliki Gruda and Mala Gruda in the Bay of Kotor in Montenegro make an important contribution to the basics and the emergence of Illyrian culture. Burials from the Early Bronze Age to the Early Iron Age have been made accessible here (Primas 1996; Della Casa 1996).


Some more recent analyzes enable important insights into the social structures, especially on the basis of cler, Furstengréiber (summarized: Babic ’2002; Krstic’ 2004). Trade and trade routes are also increasingly the focus of archaeological research (Palavestra 1993; 1995; Jasarevic '2015 a). The excavation of a giant tumor in Lofke'ndi in central Albania, carried out in recent years, was also a great enrichment for the knowledge of Illyrian funeral customs (Papadopoulos et al. 2014).


In Albania, during the communist era, national interests were linked to Illyrian research. Some Albanian archaeologists and historians left no doubt that the early medieval Kuman culture was Illyrian. From the bearers of this culture are then in the 7th century the Arbians and from these in the 11th] h. the Arvanitai and ultimately the Albanians emerged.

In Albania, during the communist era, national interests were linked to Illyrian research. Some Albanian archaeologists and historians left no doubt that the early medieval Kuman culture was Illyrian. The bearers of this culture were then the Arbians in the 7th century and the Arbians in the 11th century. the Arvanitai and ultimately the Albanians emerged.


With this doctrine of descent, the Albanians should be portrayed as a thoroughly autochthonous people (cf. Zindel et al. 2018, 20). Of course, there was usually a clear rejection of this thesis not only among archiologists and ancient historians, but also in linguistics (D Section C.1).


A major German-Albanian exhibition on the history and culture of Albania in Hildesheim in 1988 marked a turning point in this question. In the corresponding catalog you can already read a more cautious and differentiated formulation by the Albanian archéiologists. Also, the South Albanian area in the Korca plain, in Kolonja and in Epirus was no longer necessarily counted as part of the Illyrian habitat (Eggebrecht 1988).


Thereafter, Illyrian research received new impulses from two further exhibitions in 2004. These were the presentation of the cultures of the Celtic Skordisker and Northern Illyrians in Hochdorf an der Enz (Bader 2004) and a traveling exhibition that started in Asparn an der Zaya (Lippert 2004).


In addition to archaeological subjects, the volumes accompanying these exhibitions also deal with the ancient sources of the Illyrians.


The Illyrian culture has long been the focus of several international symposia in Albania and in former Yugoslavia. It started with a conference in Sarajevo that dealt with habitat and chronology (Benac 1964). This was followed by a conference in Tirana in 1972 on general questions (premiere colloque 1976). In 1974 one then devoted oneself to the settlements in Mostar (Colloque Agglomerations 1975).


In Zlatibor, Serbia, cult and religion were topics of the symposium in 1976 (Rites d’inhumations 1979), while in Herzeg Novi 1982 intellectual culture, art and ornamentation were discussed (Covic ’1982).

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Yeah, interesting, so the East Alpine Block language(Illyroid) was brought somewhere during Late Early Bronze Age with some Bell-Beaker R1b-L51 (we already have one MBA R1b-L51 in MBA Croatia) incorporating J2b2-L283 along the way.

Bell_Beaker.png
 
Lippert's map of Illyrian tribes in the 4th century BC has some quite different things I haven't seen before.

Dardani he doesn't count as illyrian for one, but the Pirustae he places in west Kosova, the Glasinac area.

Some people argue that Pirustae is a translation of Dardanai (Pirus: Pear, Dardhë: Pear), so maybe this was an "Illyrianised" Dardanian group if he is correct?

Enchelei he places around lake shkodra, Brygi he counts as Illyrian?

J2dNh8Y.png


one thing that stands out is the invasion of the Ardiaei from northern Bosnia into Northern Montenegro which forced the Enchelei to flee into Albania

we see the Iapodes north of the Liburnians ( where they have always been ) and where eventually brought by the Liburnians to Foggia Italy to be the Daunians .............this part of the map is correct
 
Yeah, interesting, so the East Alpine Block language(Illyroid) was brought somewhere during Late Early Bronze Age with some Bell-Beaker R1b-L51 (we already have one MBA R1b-L51 in MBA Croatia) incorporating J2b2-L283 along the way.

Bell_Beaker.png

I don't know yet, didn't see any bell beaker mention.

But i think it is undeniable now that J2b-L283 is a main Glasinac / Illyrian lineage for sure.
 
I am still curious as to how R1b PF7562 figures into this
 
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