When was the Ashkenazi bottleneck?

ToBeOrNotToBe

ToBeOrNotToBe

Regular Member
Messages
1,110
Reaction score
138
Points
0
I often see people floating a figure of about 30 generations ago, and about 3/4 of a millennium ago, but was the bottleneck really that recent?

Was the bottleneck from very few families moving to the Rhineland, or from very few families moving to Poland-Lithuania?
 
To me it looks like the bottleneck or at least the first bottleneck was in South Europe, possibly in Greece or or South Italy, at least 1,000 years ago. After all, genetically Ashkenazi are 30% Middle Eastern, 55% South European, 10% East European and 5% West European. At least roughly.
 
LeBrok said:
To me it looks like the bottleneck or at least the first bottleneck was in South Europe, possibly in Greece or or South Italy, at least 1,000 years ago. After all, genetically Ashkenazi are 30% Middle Eastern, 55% South European, 10% East European and 5% West European. At least roughly.
Click to expand...
Isn't that against what the current literature says? As far as I know, only one bottleneck is relevant in terms of Ashkenazic ethnogenesis
 
55% of South European admixture means that relatively few Middle Eastern Jews has mixed into a bigger group of locals. It's been speculated that Jewish men took local women for wives. "The few" should mean bottlenecking, I suppose. It doesn't negate later and another bottlenecking however. It is possible that Ashkenazi grew from small immigrant group which settled in Eastern Europe in middle ages. This, after they migrated from Southern Europe to Western and finally to Eastern.
 
LeBrok said:
55% of South European admixture means that relatively few Middle Eastern Jews has mixed into a bigger group of locals. It's been speculated that Jewish men took local women for wives. "The few" should mean bottlenecking, I suppose. It doesn't negate later and another bottlenecking however. It is possible that Ashkenazi grew from small immigrant group which settled in Eastern Europe in middle ages. This, after they migrated from Southern Europe to Western and finally to Eastern.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that's what the current literature suggests. Poland is basically to Ashkenazim what Israel was to the original Hebrews.
 
I just emailed Carmi (who I believe is the main bottleneck guy), and he said that the estimate range is using 25-30 years per generation and with the bottleneck occurring 25-35 generations ago, meaning the bottleneck took place roughly between 1000AD and 1400AD (during the Piast dynasty of Poland basically). Taking the middle of the road figure, it took place around 1200AD, though I doubt we'll get much precision past being generally within the Piast dynasty of Poland.

He thought that while it is possible a bottleneck could have taken place in the Rhineland, it's more likely that one took place within Poland, with several hundred families moving there and basically breeding like endogamous rabbits (as one example, but in the 19th century even, my great great grandfather had at least 10 children).

Does Tomenable have any thoughts here?
 
ToBeOrNotToBe said:
I'm pretty sure that's what the current literature suggests. Poland is basically to Ashkenazim what Israel was to the original Hebrews.
Click to expand...
I don't agree here. Genetically speaking it was South Europe which donated 55% of Ashkenazi DNA. Though after all every element counts. It was a process and not an event.
 
ToBeOrNotToBe said:
I just emailed Carmi (who I believe is the main bottleneck guy), and he said that the estimate range is using 25-30 years per generation and with the bottleneck occurring 25-35 generations ago, meaning the bottleneck took place roughly between 1000AD and 1400AD (during the Piast dynasty of Poland basically). Taking the middle of the road figure, it took place around 1200AD, though I doubt we'll get much precision past being generally within the Piast dynasty of Poland.

He thought that while it is possible a bottleneck could have taken place in the Rhineland, it's more likely that one took place within Poland, with several hundred families moving there and basically breeding like endogamous rabbits (as one example, but in the 19th century even, my great great grandfather had at least 10 children).

Does Tomenable have any thoughts here?
Click to expand...
Back than every nation in europe was making so many kids, not just Jews. It was a different story how many kids survived. Sometimes just 1 out of 10. Tough times.
 
ToBeOrNotToBe said:
I just emailed Carmi (who I believe is the main bottleneck guy), and he said that the estimate range is using 25-30 years per generation and with the bottleneck occurring 25-35 generations ago, meaning the bottleneck took place roughly between 1000AD and 1400AD (during the Piast dynasty of Poland basically). Taking the middle of the road figure, it took place around 1200AD, though I doubt we'll get much precision past being generally within the Piast dynasty of Poland.

He thought that while it is possible a bottleneck could have taken place in the Rhineland, it's more likely that one took place within Poland, with several hundred families moving there and basically breeding like endogamous rabbits (as one example, but in the 19th century even, my great great grandfather had at least 10 children).

Does Tomenable have any thoughts here?
Click to expand...

To be honest, I think that it more likely took place back in the Rhineland.

Had it taken place in Poland, Jews would have probably adopted a language more similar to Polish - rather than Yiddish, which was based on Rhenish dialects of German (Eastern Yiddish has some Slavic influences as well, but the core of the language was based on Rhenish dialects).

Jews adopted Yiddish probably soon after the bottleneck, when they were few in numbers and surrounded by German-speakers.

First Jewish communities existed in Poland already in the 1100s-1200s, but those were mainly Jewish refugees from Bohemia who were Knaanic-speakers (Knaanic was a Judeo-Slavic language). Some Ashkenazim could be there too, but generally Jews were very few in numbers in Poland at that time.

A larger wave of Jewish refugees came to Poland only during the 1300s and those were for sure Yiddish-speaking Ashkenazim.

According to Salo W. Baron, "A Social and Religious History of the Jews", in year 1490 there were 30,000 Jews in Poland - which was only 5% of Europe's 600,000 Jews at that time, but most of Europe's Jews in 1490 were Sephardic. More Jews lived in 1490 in Iberia (280,000 - but they were soon to be expelled from Iberia), Italy (120,000) and Germany (80,000 - but the number of Jews in Germany had already been declining since 1300 due to expulsions and pogroms, and by year 1525 most Jews had left Germany).

Similar estimate - circa 24 thousand Jews in Poland around year 1500 - is given by the Inter-War era book "Żydzi w Polsce Odrodzonej" ("Jews in the Reborn Poland"). I recommend you this book if you are interested in the history of Jews in Poland. It should be available in university librariers etc. in the UK, but I suppose that it has never been translated to English so far:

http://www.wbc.poznan.pl/dlibra/publication?id=83913

During the following centuries, the number of Jews in Poland was increasing so rapidly, that in 1830, Poland (or rather Russia, Prussia/Germany and Austria, who had partitioned Poland shortly before that) was home to 42-46% of the world's Jews. In that year massive emigration to America started, between 1830 and 1930 over 3 million European Jews came to America.

Most of that Polish Jewish population increase after 1490 was probably due to very high fertility rates.
 
LeBrok said:
Back than every nation in europe was making so many kids, not just Jews.
Click to expand...

But Jews in Poland increased in numbers 75-fold while Non-Jewish population grew just 5-fold during the same period:

http://www.pogonowski.com/books/Jews_in_Poland/Jews_in_Poland_all.pdf

From pages 13-14: "(...) Between 1340 and 1772, the Jewish population of Poland grew 75-fold, from about 10,000 to over 750,000. During the same period, the Christian population grew only 5-fold. This exceptional increase took place in large part between the 11th and 16th centuries, as a result of a massive movement of Jews from western Europe to greater freedom in Poland. Beginning in the 17th century, a steady trickle of Jews migrated west from the historic Polish lands, prompted by the Cossack uprising led by Khmelnitskiy in 1648. The Ukrainian Cossacks perpetrated the bloodiest massacres of Jews since the Romans. However, the tiny Jewish communities subsequently established in the west were much too small to generate a modern ethnic and political identity comparable to that of their parent community in Poland, which included the largest concentration of Jews in the world at that time. In the 17th century, the Polish Jewish population began to explode. Widespread Jewish teenage marriages resulted in unprecedented birthrates, considerably higher than amongst the rest of the population. Between 1650 and 1770 the number of Jews in Poland increased by over 300 percent to more than 750,000. (...) The Jewish population continued to grow throughout the Partitions of Poland (1795-1918), even though Jewish communal bodies lost the broad autonomy which they had previously enjoyed. (...)"
 
Last edited:
Well, if the guy who wrote the article wrote the book that tells me how much reliance I should place on his data, doesn't it?

Also makes it clear where you source your ideas.

Don't ever consider volunteering to go undercover, Tomenable.

As to substance, as I said before, Jewish rules as to cleanliness and hygiene, both personally and in terms of their food, may have had something to do with it. Perhaps the religious injunction to "honor" their wives at least every Sabbath was a factor, particularly as they wouldn't have been drunk and incapable.
 
Angela said:
Well, if the guy who wrote the article wrote the book that tells me how much reliance I should place on his data, doesn't it?
Click to expand...

His book did get positive reviews among experts in North America, didn't it?

As for that article that I linked by mistake - come on Angela, everyone knows that Israel has shady cards in its history (and even in its recent policies) as well. Just ask any Leftist in your country if they support Israel or not. 90% will tell you that they love the Jewish people but hate the state of Israel (and they will probably call it a Fascist state). Pogonowski's article was about Israeli Jews doing some shady things to other Jews. Perhaps it was based on unconfirmed rumours but it doesn't make Pogonowski's book unreliable.

Salo W. Baron in his book "A Social and Religious History of the Jews" provides very similar data to Pogonowski's data.

According to Salo W. Baron, in year 1490 Poland had around 30,000 Jews (which was just 5% of European Jewry at that time - including Sephardic Jews, who were more numerous than Ashkenazi Jews at that time), and by 1830 Poland already had 42-46% of the entire world's Jewry. According to another estimate, in 1772 (the First Partition of Poland), around 1/3 of the world's Jews lived in Poland. At some point between 1490 and 1830 Sephardic Jews - previously most numerous - became outnumbered by Ashkenazi Jews.

This data is further confirmed by this Polish Inter-War era book (published in 1933), written mostly by Polish-Jewish scholars. They estimate the Jewish population of Poland around year 1500 as 24,000 - so this estimate is very close to Baron's estimate of 30,000:

http://www.wbc.poznan.pl/dlibra/publication?id=83913

^^^ "Żydzi w Polsce Odrodzonej" ("Jews in the Reborn Poland"). I highly recommend this book, it should be translated and published in English (unless it already took place?). It was written by Polish Jews and most of its authors later perished in the Holocaust.

When it comes to the history of Jews in Poland, I consider books written by Polish Jews living in Poland at the time of publication the most trustworthy. More trustworthy than any books written by Israeli or American Jews (even if descended from Polish Jews). American Jews looked down on Eastern European Jews. Western European Jews also looked down on Eastern European Jews and considered them "more barbarian", etc.

Number of Jews in Poland based on estimates from "Żydzi w Polsce Odrodzonej":

Year - Jewish population:

1500 - 24,000
1580 - 100,000
1611 - 200,000
1644 - 400,000
1648 - 450,000

And here estimates for just two regions of Poland (Wielkopolska, Małopolska):

1. In years 1578-1580:

Total population - 2,352,700
Urban population - 676,700
Jewish population - 26,500

2. In years 1662-1676:

Total population - 1,883,300 (decline by 20%)
Urban population - 351,700 (decline by 48%)
Jewish population - 43,500 (increase by 68%)

Urban and total populations declined, due to wars and plagues of 1648-1660.

At the same time Jewish population managed to increase despite those events.

Data for urban and total population is from "Atlas Historyczny Polski XVI wieku" ("Historical Atlas of 16th century Poland") series, and from Bogucka and Samsonowicz, "Historia miast i mieszczaństwa w Polsce" ("History of cities and urban population in Poland"). This data is based on tax censuses which counted the exact number of households (population is estimated by multiplying the number of households x average family size).
 
Angela said:
As to substance, as I said before, Jewish rules as to cleanliness and hygiene, both personally and in terms of their food, may have had something to do with it. Perhaps the religious injunction to "honor" their wives at least every Sabbath was a factor
Click to expand...

Jews were also exempt from military service, IIRC. Anyway, I wasn't getting into details such as the exact reasons why was Jewish population increasing so fast. But genetic studies have confirmed, that Ashkenazi population is descended from a small number of founders who lived several centuries ago, which implies that their population was indeed growing very rapidly between the Middle Ages and the 19th century, from which we have reliable census data. So any non-genetic data on the size of Jewish population over time which confirms these findings of geneticists - such as Pogonowski's data - is most likely true.

Did Sephardic Jews have different rules about cleanliness, hygiene and sex every Sabbath than Ashkenazi Jews? Why wasn't Sephardic population - or even Ashkenazi groups outside of Poland - growing as fast as Polish Jews?

Ottoman Turkish nobility and rulers had - just like Polish-Lithuanian nobility and rulers - generally Pro-Jewish attitudes. So Sephardic Jews in the Ottoman Empire also had good conditions for population growth.

For instance in this city in Greece, Jews (as far as I know those were Sephardic Jews who migrated to the Balkan part of the Ottoman Empire) used to be the majority of inhabitants, and Greeks became minority:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessaloniki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Thessaloniki
 
The Ottoman Empire was known for being a Jewish-friendly place (just like the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) and Jews expelled from Iberia and Italy enjoyed many rights and privileges under Turkish rule. So I was surprised when Angela in another thread (the one about "borderline European countries") suggested that 16th century Turks were barbarans compared to Italians, due to being Muslim. In Poland, this Turkish TV series about Hurrem Sultan (1502-1558) is very popular, especially among female audience. AFAIK Turkish TV series have lately become popular in most of the world apart from the Anglosphere and Germanic-speaking countries. But it is available on YT with English subtitles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qTUTbIN82w

https://www.youtube.com/user/muhtesemyuzyil/videos


The Ottoman Empire was more pro-multiculturalism and religiously tolerant than Western Europe at that time. Perhaps the Ottomans persecuted Christians in some regions but they did not persecute Jews as much as Western Europeans at that time.
 
ToBeOrNotToBe said:
I just emailed Carmi (who I believe is the main bottleneck guy), and he said that the estimate range is using 25-30 years per generation and with the bottleneck occurring 25-35 generations ago, meaning the bottleneck took place roughly between 1000AD and 1400AD (...)
Click to expand...

If it was between 1000 AD and 1400 AD, then the most likely date is probably 1096 AD:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhineland_massacres

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worms_massacre_(1096)

And at that time Ashkenazi Jews were in the Rhineland. To Poland they came only later.
 
Tomenable said:
The Ottoman Empire was known for being a Jewish-friendly place (just like the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) and Jews expelled from Iberia and Italy enjoyed many rights and privileges under Turkish rule. So I was surprised when Angela in another thread (the one about "borderline European countries") suggested that 16th century Turks were barbarans compared to Italians, due to being Muslim. In Poland, this Turkish TV series about Hurrem Sultan (1502-1558) is very popular, especially among female audience. AFAIK Turkish TV series have lately become popular in most of the world apart from the Anglosphere and Germanic-speaking countries. But it is available on YT with English subtitles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qTUTbIN82w

https://www.youtube.com/user/muhtesemyuzyil/videos


The Ottoman Empire was more pro-multiculturalism and religiously tolerant than Western Europe at that time. Perhaps the Ottomans persecuted Christians in some regions but they did not persecute Jews as much as Western Europeans at that time.
Click to expand...

You mischaracterize what I have said and insult me one more time and you'll get another infraction. Am I clear?
 
Tomenable said:
For instance in this city in Greece, Jews (as far as I know those were Sephardic Jews who migrated to the Balkan part of the Ottoman Empire) used to be the majority of inhabitants, and Greeks became minority:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessaloniki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Thessaloniki
Click to expand...

The Sephardic Jews in Thessaloniki did outnumber Greeks at some point. They came from Spain during/after the Inquisition and spoke/speak Ladino.
 
Tomenable said:
The Ottoman Empire was more pro-multiculturalism and religiously tolerant than Western Europe at that time. Perhaps the Ottomans persecuted Christians in some regions but they did not persecute Jews as much as Western Europeans at that time.
Click to expand...
All empires by definition are composed by definition of different ethnic/religious groups. The more successful ones are tolerant of their minorities. However the Ottoman empire was not as tolerant as many like to portray. Any non-muslim had to pay a tax. They were forced islamization at points in their history. Insurrections were put down bloodily.
But I have to give them credit. They were more tolerant of religious diversity than the Byzantine Empire and the taxes were lower.:LOL:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 10138 times.

Back
Top