What is the earliest ancestral I1 sample?

I tested with Living DNA and am going back to ask them about this.

LivingDNA should have your terminal haplogroup named somewhere in your profile. Basically what you've listed are not equations but SNPs (and there variant names).
 
The company that did my Y-DNA test says I am I1, with my strongest matches in Scandinavia, but the results also consist of pages of symbols.

What do all the symbols mean? Which ones should I pay attention to? And why?

AM00847/AMM008/B65
AM01921.2/S475.2/Z2983.2

CTS - I have dozens upon dozens of lines starting out with CTS10/Z2676 and ending with CTS9722/M5762

F
- starting with F1046/M3646/PF2610/YSC0001295 and ending with FI3/L756/PF3662/YSC0000284


L - starting withL1009 and ending with L970/PF1065

M
- dozens on dozens, including what looks like my haplotype (M253) - but starting with M10372.1/ZS6696.1 and ending with M9406


P
- dozens upon dozens, starting with P105/P105 and ending PF7372 (Unless you count Page123/Page123/Z2763)


S
- starting with S107 and ending with SRY10831.1


V
- starting with V1423/Z2717 and ending V2264/Z2728


Y
- starting with YSC0000256.1/YSC0000256.2 and ending YSC0000301/Z2882


Z
- starting with Z11010 and ending with Z4145/Z4147

Are the equations starting with an M haplotypes?

These are mutations. Each company or university that works with sequencing of human DNA name new SNP's (mutatations) that they discover with their initials and a number. SNP's begining with Y for instance is found by Yfull. SNP's begining with FT are found by familitytreeDNA. CTS are found by for Chris Tyler-Smith etc. For more see here for instance: https://isogg.org/tree/
I think the numbers given are probably sequential, but only meaningful to the people who found the SNP.

To be honest, there's not much you can use the data for. Living DNA is only able to tell you that you are I1. If you want to know which subclade you need to do deeper testing with another company. Living DNA seems to me to just test a random smear of known I1 mutations to be sure you are actually I1 - but it's not useful to place you anywere on the I1 tree.

I also tested with living DNA, and I found the results to be completely unreliable rubbish. It said I was 63% brittish, which I can assure you I am absolutely not. I know all branches of all my families at least 4 generations back, but in most branches of my family I can follow my ancestors back much later. And I only have swedish, danish and german ancestors. How can I be 63% brittish? Ridiculous.
 
These are mutations. Each company or university that works with sequencing of human DNA name new SNP's (mutatations) that they discover with their initials and a number. SNP's begining with Y for instance is found by Yfull. SNP's begining with FT are found by familitytreeDNA. CTS are found by for Chris Tyler-Smith etc. For more see here for instance: https://isogg.org/tree/
I think the numbers given are probably sequential, but only meaningful to the people who found the SNP.

To be honest, there's not much you can use the data for. Living DNA is only able to tell you that you are I1. If you want to know which subclade you need to do deeper testing with another company. Living DNA seems to me to just test a random smear of known I1 mutations to be sure you are actually I1 - but it's not useful to place you anywere on the I1 tree.

I also tested with living DNA, and I found the results to be completely unreliable rubbish. It said I was 63% brittish, which I can assure you I am absolutely not. I know all branches of all my families at least 4 generations back, but in most branches of my family I can follow my ancestors back much later. And I only have swedish, danish and german ancestors. How can I be 63% brittish? Ridiculous.

LivingDNA started with the data from the POBI project (People of the British Isles). Until they expand their database, their algorithm "pulls" any genes common in England into an English category.

That said, it's very difficult to separate English and German ancestry. I haven't seen a company that can do it reliably, which is why 23andMe stops at "northwest european."
 
That said, it's very difficult to separate English and German ancestry. I haven't seen a company that can do it reliably, which is why 23andMe stops at "northwest european."

Yes, I'm sure. They also state this themselves as a caveat with the results. But when 23andme can't do it, then Living DNA shouldn't pretend that they can do it either. The results I got from them are clearly useless and unreliable. It's even worse with my girlfriends test. She's half danish and half scottish, and came out 99% "great britain and ireland". Thanks. That's just 99% completely useless information and a 100% waste of money.

I would never recommend any one to waste their money with Living DNA, but instead use 23andme. I don't care about the reason when I feel ripped off.
 
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Yes, I'm sure. They also state this themselves as a caveat with the results. But when 23andme can't do it, then Living DNA shouldn't pretend that they can do it either. The results I got from them are clearly useless and unreliable. It's even worse with my girlfriends test. She's half danish and half scottish, and came out 99% "great britain and ireland". Thanks. That's just 99% completely useless information and a 100% waste of money.
I would never recommend any one to waste their money with Living DNA, but instead use 23andme. I don't care about the reason when I feel ripped off.
I respect that you feel ripped off and I'm not posting a response to try and change your view however it should be noted that LivingDNA's original data source is based off of the POBI DNA study (People of the British Isles) which initially and currently still has a strong British bias, slowly they will be adding more data from other regions that have been included in the study.
It is also worth noting that Danes and British people in general can be rather genetically similar with the Danes closest genetic neighbours in PCA charts being British groups BEFORE other Scandinavian groups.
Britain shares part of its history with Denmark & the rest of Scandinavia what with Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes, Norwegians, etc all settling in Britain. There was even a "North Sea Empire" (under King Cnút and his relatives) which stretched from the northern border of England (pre-1066 borders) to Scandinavia.
Again, I'm not mentioning this to try and sway your opinion. I understand why you feel ripped off, when a company is misleading and they offer no explanations or anything else it can be frustrating, to say the least.
 
Yes, thank you :) I know all this. Sorry for derailing the thread, I didn't mean to go on a rant against Living DNA. I just wanted to tell Roy L Hanes he should take his DNA test with a large chunck of salt. I'm sure their product will be really good once they get a bigger database.
 
I found all of the comments about Y-DNA very useful, but felt like adding a bit about LivingDNA's findings of my autosomal DNA.

While I do not know much about DNA testing, I can trace most of my lineages back to the 1700s and some much further. The exceptions are all Irish which I only know from Canadian records and, with one exception, cannot trace them back much further than 1800.

I chose Living DNA because of their British databanks and the report they sent me seems to match my (English/Scots/Irish) genealogy 85% to 90%. (This is a gut response, not an accurate measurement).

Here are the Surprises:

No Southern Irish DNA - though (2) I have a small cluster of families that came from Kildare in 1830, (2) my great great grandfather Garretty was born in Roscommon about 1846 (he left several written records and the year keeps changing) and (3) another Irish family with names most common in Tipperary came to New Brunswick in 1840. I can come up with explanations (maybe my Kildare families - Archbold, Dunn and Donnelly - were only in Kildare for a generation; maybe someone other than Michael Garretty was my ancestor's real father etc etc) but this starts sounding weak when you are talking about more than one lineage.

These could be explained if traces of autosomal DNA can last for 600 to 900 years:
1. 4.4% Scandinavian - can this still be lingering from the Vikings? Or Normans? Aside from that, I have to postulate that some unknown Scandinavian married into one of my Scots lines in the early 1700s.
2. 3.8% East Anglian - One of my lineages is believed to have left Norfolk about 1344. Aside from that, the most probable explanation is someone from East Anglia went to Oxfordshire or Kent in the 1600s.

I am also supposed to have a black ancestor named "Williams", who was a merchant on Jamaica or the west Indies. This story steps into history in New Brunswick where my ancestor Elisabeth Williams was born in 1775.
1. the nice surprise, LivingDNA found 1.4% of my autosomal DNA is Welsh - It took awhile for the implications to dawn on me. Jamaica's free coloured class were largely the offspring of white fathers and black mothers. Williams is reputedly the third most common surname in Wales and many Welshman of that name emigrated to Jamaica.
2. The puzzle - LivingDNA did not report any African DNA in me. Discussing this with a cousin, I found out that I was the 9th of Elisabeth Williams offspring to be tested. Traces of African DNA were found in five of us, but from very diverse places (Mali, Ghana, North Africa, "Africa South-Central Hunter-Gatherers"). Drawing up a couple of scenarios to explain how Williams could have such a diverse ancestry, I find it is quite possible the last "African" ancestor was born about 1700 and at the very latest she (his mother, who would have needed to marry a mullato ) was born in 1725. The rest need to be Jamaican.

Overall, I am satisfied with the autosomal results.

I would like to know if there is a place that does a more comprehensive job. (Especially for my wife, whose ancestry is central/south European.)
 
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Aside from getting retested by another company, is there some place I can go to find out what specific mutations like "CTS9722/M5762" mean? (I'm interested in the genealogical rather than medical or genetic perspective)
 
Aside from getting retested by another company, is there some place I can go to find out what specific mutations like "CTS9722/M5762" mean? (I'm interested in the genealogical rather than medical or genetic perspective)

I can't think of any websites that tell you what these specific mutations mean, however there isn't really much medically in regards to these "mutations". What these mutations really mean is that there is a nucleotide mutation at a certain location, the nomenclature for a position varies between companies. So lets say someone is I-Z59+ the reference nucleotide for this location is "G" (guanine) however to test position for Z59+ the genotype must be "T" (thymine).

The SNP names are just a way of keeping track of where these mutations occur in comparison to the reference genotypes.
 
All ancient samples of I1, pre-I1 and post-I1 are important and should be followed and mapped out, it gives us an idea of the distribution of early I1. I-M253 seems to have gone through a bottleneck given that it is a fairly old clade (formed 27,500 ybp) with a TMRCA for descending clades at 4,600 ybp, and it is not known why the vast majority of I-M253 members are descended from I-DF29 (formed 4,600 ybp TMRCA 4,600 ybp).
It is unfortunate that the list of ancient I1 (pre-I1) included is so small, however I forgot to add the other I1 individuals found in the Iceland study. I'll dig those individuals up and add them to the list.
In regards to the LBK Hungary I-M253 sample the haplogroup prediction was based off of a single SNP M253, ISOGG defines I1 by a lot more than M253, so the LBK Hungary I1 may not even be a fully legitimate I1 if he was only positive for M253 and not much else. This is why shorthand names are important for haplogroup designation I-M253 instead of I1, keeps things clearer especially when dealing with later haplogroups.
This is an excellent point regarding the I-M253 Hungary sample. For me I1 is I-M253 + 308 other SNPs so if ancient dna is only tested for one of those 309 SNPs it’s a stretch to label it as I1. This Hungary sample is probably an extinct branch. I’m sure over time many samples that are extinct branches might be found dating back 27,000 years where only a few of these 309 SNPs are positive. When testing ancient dna it would be a lot more meaningful to me to know if the sample was positive or negative for I-DF29 making it more likely to be an extant branch.
 
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Not sure, but the oldest TMRCA of the living I1 members is ~3100 years iirc according to yFull.
 
Aside from getting retested by another company, is there some place I can go to find out what specific mutations like "CTS9722/M5762" mean? (I'm interested in the genealogical rather than medical or genetic perspective)

There is an SNP index, that may be helpfull for you, try typing 'SNP Index- Google sheets' under images and you should come across it im not sure how to send links etc.
 
Ancient I1-M253 samples
StoraFörvar11 5500-5250 BC Stora Förvar cave, Stora Karlsö Island Sweden SHG pre-I1-M253 (xL121)Skoglund 2014 (pre-I-M253xL121)
BAB5 5300-4900 BC* Balatonszemes-Bagódomb Hungary LBKT_Neolithic I1-M253 Szécsényi-Nagy 2014 (I-M253)
RISE179 2010-1776 BC Abekås I Sweden Nordic_LN I1-M253 Allentoft 2015 (I-M253)
RISE207 1493-1302 BC Angmollan Sweden Nordic_BA I1-M253 Allentoft 2015 (I-M253)
RISE210 1432-1292 BC Ängamöllan Sweden Nordic_BA I1-M253? Allentoft 2015 (I-M253)
RISE175 1395-1132 BC Abekås I Sweden Nordic_BA I1-M253 Allentoft 2015 (I-M253)
KO_55 100-300 AD Kowalewko Poland Wielbark_Culture I1a3a1a1a-M253>DF29>Z63>BY151>S2078>S2077>Y2245>L1237 Zenczak 2017 (I-L1237)
NO3423 550-650 AD Norton on Tees Great Britain Anglo-Saxon I1-M253 Martiniano 2016 (I-M253)
SZ45 600-650 AD Szolad Hungary Langobard I1a1b1-M253>DF29>Z2336>Z2337>L22 Amorim 2018
(I-L22)
ME_7 1000-1200 AD Markowice Poland Medieval I1a2a2a5-M253>DF29>Z58>Z59>Z2041>Z2040>Z382>Y5384 Zenczak 2017 (I-Y5384)
SBT-A1 Medieval Iceland, I1a2a1a1a2-F2642
^ 75% Gaelic, 25% Norse
Remains from Görzig (Saxony-Anhalt) date from the 4th and 5th centuries. Seven out of the 12 males were I-M253. No subclades given.
Alemannic/Bavarian remains in Altenerding-Klettham in southern Germany, medieval remains, aDNA paper found male individual, a warrior, 60+ years old buried with spatha and other weaponry to belong to haplogroup I-M253. There were also elongated skulls in these graves. The women showed autosomal affinity with Ukrainians and Turks (Steppic), while the men showed Northern-Central European affinity (Germanic).
The Bavarian guys seem to be a mixture of U106 (5 samples) and I1 (3 samples) and I2a (1 sample).
AED249 is I1-L840 (I1-M253) (Baiuvarii)
STR486 is I1-L840 (I1-M253) (Baiuvarii)
STR241 is I1-L840 (I1-M253) (Baiuvarii)

Good and thorough. Thank you.
 
These are mutations. Each company or university that works with sequencing of human DNA name new SNP's (mutatations) that they discover with their initials and a number. SNP's begining with Y for instance is found by Yfull. SNP's begining with FT are found by familitytreeDNA. CTS are found by for Chris Tyler-Smith etc. For more see here for instance: https://isogg.org/tree/
I think the numbers given are probably sequential, but only meaningful to the people who found the SNP.

To be honest, there's not much you can use the data for. Living DNA is only able to tell you that you are I1. If you want to know which subclade you need to do deeper testing with another company. Living DNA seems to me to just test a random smear of known I1 mutations to be sure you are actually I1 - but it's not useful to place you anywere on the I1 tree.

I also tested with living DNA, and I found the results to be completely unreliable rubbish. It said I was 63% brittish, which I can assure you I am absolutely not. I know all branches of all my families at least 4 generations back, but in most branches of my family I can follow my ancestors back much later. And I only have swedish, danish and german ancestors. How can I be 63% brittish? Ridiculous.
IGENEA, Switzerland, was my original *Y-DNA test result, then, FamilyTreeDNA for SNP. IGENEA test was accurate then and still is...it’s on expensive side though.
 
Stora Förvar has just a few SNP's for I1, to little to be ancestral to I1.
About the LBK I1 sample, very little is known, apart from being autosomal EEF.

This is why we usually list BAB5 and SF11 (and now BAL051) as pre-I1. Pre-I1 does not necessarily mean they are ancestral to modern I1 it just means they are from the same lineage that broke off of I-M170 27,500ybp. The TMRCA of modern I1 is 4600ybp, so we're looking at a Bronze Age expansion.
 
“Sample: VK262 / UK_Dorset-3739
Location: Ridgeway_Hill_Mass_Grave_Dorset, Dorset, England, UK
Age: Viking 10-11th centuries CE
Y-DNA: I-FT347811
FTDNA Comment: Shares 2 SNPs with an American of unknown origins. Forms a new branch down of Y6908 (Z140). At the same time a new branch was discovered that groups this new Ancient/American branch with the established I-FT274828 branch..” ( https://dna-explained.com/2020/09/1...r-mitochondrial-dna-match-daily-updates-here/ )
Ridgeway Hill containing 51 dismembered skeletons, with skulls, rib cages and leg bones arranged in separate piles. The pit was in a disused Roman quarry, utilized by the killers for convenience rather than specially dug... They had not been cleanly murdered, as many of them had suffered multiple hits to the vertebrae, jawbones and skulls.
One man had his hands sliced through..he had endeavored to grab the sword as it was being swung towards him.” FT274828 at http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html returned to Germania ( Netherlands) from England. I1 FT274828 came from Denmark through ‘Germania’ to England & back to Netherlands at the time of Saxon versus Vikings conflict ( The Ridgeway Hill Viking burial pit at Ridgeway Hill close Weymouth, Dorset, was a mass grave of 54 skeletons and 51 heads of Scandinavian men executed some time between AD 910 and 1030.)


 
IGENEA, Switzerland: originally suggested Viking origin..that ended being precisely right after Y700 results FT274828 ( Ridgeway Hill, grave of Danish Viking •••Sample: VK 262

( A mass grave of around 50 headless Vikings from a site in Dorset, UK. used for DNA analysis. Credit: Dorset County Council/Oxford Archaeology in that grave, Viking ancestor is one of the Fifty.


Sample: VK262 / UK_Dorset-3739
Location: Ridgeway_Hill_Mass_Grave_Dorset, Dorset, England, UK
Age: Viking 10-11th centuries CE
Y-DNA: I-FT347811
FTDNA Comment:
Shares 2 SNPs with an American of unknown origins.
Forms a new branch down of Y6908 (Z140).
At the same time a new branch was discovered that groups this new Ancient/American branch with the
established I-FT274828 branch.
New ancient path = I-Y6908>I-FT273257>I-FT347811


“As for the total number of individuals:
Generally, these involved counting the most frequently occurring bone or bones and matching pairs of bones. Results indicate that between 47 and 52 individuals were present..
there were more beheaded skeletons than skulls and this could mean that some heads had been taken as trophies following the executions ?!
All the men had suffered horrific ends, their executions being an ugly affair involving excessive violence. Although it was clear during the excavation that the men had suffered significant injuries the true extent and magnitude of these did not become fully apparent until the bones had been cleaned and examined in the laboratory. Wounds were concentrated in the region of the neck indicating that, in most cases, it had taken several attempts, from a variety of angles, to remove the heads. Blows intended to decapitate had been delivered from as high up as the back of the head to as low down as the shoulder blades, indicating that they had not been very well performed or well organised.
Approximately 188 wounds were observed on all of the skeletons,
an average of almost
four wounds per individual.
Forensic analysis of the wounds allowed us to conclude that the decapitations had probably been performed with a sword.


Jómsvíkinga-Icelandic story of a mass execution composed around AD 1200. The saga describes the beheading of 70 captured warriors who were roped together and had their hair secured back to keep it out of the way of the sword blade. Perhaps this had been the case at Ridgeway Hill.


Not all the injuries on the Ridgeway skeletons were directly associated with decapitation, however. Some individuals had received cuts to their arms and hands and the sides/tops of their heads, including perhaps one of the most vivid lesions observed: a large egg shaped wound where the bone had been completely removed causing considerable trauma to the brain. This injury had been delivered prior to this man's decapitation, but he may have still been alive when his head was removed.
The cuts to the hands, arms and tops/sides of heads have been defence injuries and decapitating injuries implying that
not all men had succumbed to their fate without a struggle.
That the injuries suggest some other context of violence, for example, a battle, had taken place prior to their execution...
it is important to consider that not all injuries will penetrate the soft tissues and affect the skeleton. These factors considered, on a balance, evidence for combat prior to the executions...”
( Oxford Archaeology: Early Medieval Specialist Skills - Weymouth)


“Clearly these men had shown a level of bravery similar to the Jomsviking code.”
Britt Baillie


https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/viking-mass-grave-linked-to-elite-killers-of-the-medieval-world


3e038b3b-b95b-46f7-94fe-379b28c25aa8



875 − The Danes settle in Dorset, well inside of Alfred's Kingdom of Wessex, but Alfred quickly makes peace with them.
876 − The Danes break the peace when they capture the fortress of Wareham, followed by a similar capture of Exeter in 877.
877 − Alfred lays in a siege, while the Danes wait for reinforcements from Scandinavia. Unfortunately for the Danes, the fleet of reinforcements encounters a storm and loses more than 100 ships, and the Danes are forced to return to East Mercia in the north.


954 − King Eric is driven out of Northumbria, his death marking the end of the prospect of a Northern Viking Kingdom stretching from York to Dublin and the Isles.
1002 - St. Brice's Day massacre of the Danes
( St. Brice's Day massacre (Danish: Danemordet, Massakren på Sankt Brictiusdag) was the killing of Danes in the Kingdom of England on Friday, the 13th of November 1002, ordered by King Æthelred the Unready. In response to the frequent Danish raids, King Æthelred ordered the execution of all Danes living in England... the skeletons of 34 to 38 men aged between 16 and 25 found during an excavation at St John's College, Oxford, in 2008.
Among those been killed is Gunhilde - daughter of Harald Bluetooth
( Harald Gormsson -
Old Norse: Haraldr Gormsson; Danish: Harald Blåtand Gormsen, died c. 985/86 -king of Denmark and Norway )
& the sister of Sweyn Forkbeard King of Denmark
986–1014. Sweyn Forkbeard’s invasions of England from 1002..


8ab91ba7-81c8-426a-8747-2f8be48d2eb7



Sample: VK262 / UK_Dorset-3739
Location: Ridgeway_Hill_Mass_Grave_Dorset, Dorset, England, UK
Age: Viking 10-11th centuries CE
Y-DNA: I-FT347811
FTDNA Comment:
Shares 2 SNPs with an American of unknown origins.
Forms a new branch down of Y6908 (Z140).
At the same time a new branch was discovered that groups this new Ancient/American branch with the
established I-FT274828 branch.
New ancient path = I-Y6908>I-FT273257>I-FT347811
 
This is particular sample is a bit confusing. Is the VK262_England_Dorset-3739 individual a Norse Viking of Scandinavian origin (Danish,Norwegian,etc)? Or is this individual of Anglo-Saxon, or celtic origin?
 
This is particular sample is a bit confusing. Is the VK262_England_Dorset-3739 individual a Norse Viking of Scandinavian origin (Danish,Norwegian,etc)? Or is this individual of Anglo-Saxon, or celtic origin?

He is part of the Ridgeway Hill burial. Isotope analysis for these men indicated they were born in Scandinavia. As the burial was about 1000 years ago, it would mean they were Viking warriors.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridgeway_Hill_Viking_burial_pit
 

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