Debate What do you think of America?

[Maciamo]

There is an interesting exchange of opinions on the BBC site on what the world thinks of the USA.

What do you think of America?

There is a full section devoted to What the World thinks of America

This inclues a world-wide survey : Poll suggests world hostile to US

Personally, I had a positive image of the US less than 10 years ago, and even during Clinton's administration, my main critics would be the lack of knowledge of interest in the world and the general arrogance, bad food habits and violent movies that characterised American culture. Since Bush, things have got worse... I was reminded that most Americans still swore by God and the Bible, believed in good and evil and were ready to go to war for their beliefs. Bush and his administration are a disgrace to the American people. Unfortunately, more than 50% of those people have voted for him and some support him fervently. So, I am not so sure anymore things can change radically once he is out of office (except if Hilary Clinton becomes the first female president, but that's almost utopian)

If the world has such mixed feelings about the US, it is justly because it amalgalms so much positive and negative.

I sent this to the BBC (dont know if it will be published) :

"The USA have everything to make a great country, but it only attracts criticism. Why ? It's got democracy, but the government manipulate its people ; It's got freedom, but anybody can carry a gun ; it's got a great economy, but take the ultra-rich off the list and people are so well-off anymore ; it's got natural resources, but it doesn't care about the environment (see Kyoto protocol) ; it's cosmopolitan and open to the world, but racism has always been a number one issue since colonial slavery ; it promotes religious tolerance, but fight crusades against those who are different ; it want to save the world from tyranny but only bullly the weaks. It's all a very good idea, but a failure in practice."



What irritates me is comments like "without the US intervention in WWII, Europe would be either nazi or communist now" or "We have given the world Jazz, coca-cola and Hollywood ; What would the world be like without America".

No matter how true this is, If you want to make friends, don't look down on them. It's not by telling them how great you are and showing little interest in them than they will like you.

Americans rarely recognise other countries' virtues and qualities ; there re too busy boasting about themselves and saying how proud they are to be Americans and how great a country it is - though most of them have very little knowledge of the rest of th world. That only breeds more contempt from the outside.

Anyone could find an easy reply : "What would the US be without Europe ?", "Those people who declared themsleves independent from the UK were europeans and had European ideas of freedom and democracy, that were ready to explode in places like France."
"Jazz ? Isn't the saxophone a Belgian invention ? And what would be jazz without it ? However how many Americans can recognise this fact and how many could even point at Belgium on a map ?". Everyone knows in America that all great ideas and inventions are Americans. The first telephone was made by an Italian, well-known fact in Italy, but Americans will affirm the contrary (see .
this story ). Of course, it's pointless to argue about such things. But it's characteristic of the American desire to be the best (good) and boast about it (bad).


Here are a few opinions from the "have your say" section of the BBC :

I think that America really was once the one land of freedom, but I think most Americans don't realize that the a lot of the rest of the world has caught up, and in many ways surpassed the original...And really, what kind of a democracy is a two party system?
Eric P, London, UK

Speaking as a Muslim, the Islamic world has no problems with the American people or way of life. On the contrary it is admired and copied as model system. The problem that is "anti-Americanism" is self inflicted by a pro-Zionist and blatant anti Islamic lobby. The Bush administration has polarised the world into a "pro or anti" American. A bit of fairness will go a long way to change attitudes of Muslims towards America.
Callum Savio, Bangladesh

One more thing : Why are they so many presidents in the list of Greatest American ever ? Are presidents the only valuable people in that country, or is it just that celebrity is a criterium for "greatness" ?

 

[lineartube]

I think that bumper sticker that The Daily Show splattered on Airforce One sez it all:

"How's My Diplomacy? 1-800-EAT-SHIT"

More seriously, its times like this that makes me miss the old URSS because although a bipolar world divided by two super powers might be a scary and dangerous place to live in, at least you would know what to expect, but with just one super power left and a bellicist government... who knows? Without a power to counter balance, the USA does have a lot of leeway to impose it's opinion, by force if needed, wether people like it or not. But nobody likes a bully.

My hopes for this new millenium was a world whose relationships between men and nations would be regulated and protected by law but I still see that it is the law of the bullit that still rules.

 

[lineartube]

I added a comment too though I don't know if it will be posted by the BBC:

I get dismaied in seeing how the US government ignores international treaties and institutions that they helped develop like the UN or the ICJ.
It's like a new "white men burden" mentality straight back from the XIX century, being the civilized ones american and the rest of the world, the childlish and immature natives.

 

[kirei_na_me]

Always the good words, Maciamo!

I was trying to write a response to your post, but I really couldn't. You said everything perfectly. It's absolutely right. I just wish so many Americans would realize what their government is doing. Unfortunately, most are so well trained in their patriotism to ever accept or understand the truth.

 

[thomas]

The arrogance of power

Excellent post as well as interesting articles, Maciamo!

A few unstructured personal thoughts:

I do differentiate between government and country. I share your views on the government 100%, but I am certain that there are a lot of U.S. citizens that do not feel represented by the current administration.

@ freedom: without control and opposition governments generally tend to limit personal freedoms. 9-11 and its aftermath contributed to this trend under the pretext of security, unfortunately not only in the U.S., but also in Europe

@ electoral system: difficult to grasp for continental Europeans, not very representative, also due to political disinterest/ignorance and low voter participation in elections.

@ Hillary Clinton: what about a black president?

In regard to the current U.S. administration there are two issues I consider disturbing: the influence of evangelical sects and an unhealthy amalgam of politics, large corporations and personal interests.

 

[Iron Chef]

"Americans rarely recognise other countries' virtues and qualities ; there re too busy boasting about themselves and saying how proud they are to be Americans and how great a country it is - though most of them have very little knowledge of the rest of th world. That only breeds more contempt from the outside."

Tell us how you really feel... Seriously though, I think it important to distinguish between the current administration and the general populace because you seem far too quick to blur the lines between both and lump us all together... And I for one don't think I resemble your above remark in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Elizabeth]

)
"The USA have everything to make a great country, but it only attracts criticism. Why ? It's got democracy, but the government manipulate its people ; It's got freedom, but anybody can carry a gun ; it's got a great economy, but take the ultra-rich off the list and people are so well-off anymore ; it's got natural resources, but it doesn't care about the environment (see Kyoto protocol) ; it's cosmopolitan and open to the world, but racism has always been a number one issue since colonial slavery ; it promotes religious tolerance, but fight crusades against those who are different ; it want to save the world from tyranny but only bullly the weaks. It's all a very good idea, but a failure in practice."

Yeah, I agree with Iron Chef about blurring the lines between the current administration and the general populace. There is no logic whatsoever to holding a positive view of the country under Clinton and suddenly considering the US a failure in practice because the government manipulates its people (and what government doesn't or hasn't ever?) etc. There has to be some standard against which this is all measured to even have a half-way reasoned debate. Besides, a country where at least 10% of it's population is foreign born and probably half of those here illegally can hardly be considered a failure. Why DO they keep coming???

 

[Maciamo]

My apologies

Seriously though, I think it important to distinguish between the current administration and the general populace because you seem far too quick to blur the lines between both and lump us all together... And I for one don't think I resemble your above remark in any way, shape, or form.

I understand your reaction. I am sorry if I have offended you and Elizabeth, but it's difficult to talk about the general tendencies in a country without making generalisation. :blush: There are 280 millions Americans and if only 20% of them were the actual opposite of the mainstream (world-aware, intellectual and not too proud and patriotic, at the SAME time), that would be almsot 60 million people, or in other words as many people as in the UK, France or Italy. I can't imagine even half of the people being like that in each of these countries, so there are indeed lots of Americans I would choose my friends from. I also have a lot of respect for you Iron Chef, Kirei-na-me and Elizabeth. You are among the best people I've met on such forums, but unfortunately, my experience of other forums (not necessarily realted to Japan) with a strong American majority make me think you are exceptions rather than the rule (and Josh is an angel compared to others I've met).

 

[Maciamo]

Re: Re: What do you think of America?

Yeah, I agree with Iron Chef about blurring the lines between the current administration and the general populace. There is no logic whatsoever to holding a positive view of the country under Clinton and suddenly considering the US a failure in practice because the government manipulates its people (and what government doesn't or hasn't ever?) etc. There has to be some standard against which this is all measured to even have a half-way reasoned debate.

There is indeed a connnection between the administration and the populace. They are the ones who elect the president and Congress, aren't they ? Contrarily to Japan, I am happy to see that there are all kinds of completely different political parties, from Libertarians to Fundamentalists. But why in the hell is it always about Republican and Democrats ? In lots of European countries the government has to create coalition of 3 or 4 parties because of a too great diversity. It's not uncommon that the ruling party would be out of the government at the next election.

The last French presidential elections were interesting, as due to the high division of votes between about 20 candidates from more than 10 parties, the second highest vote was for J-M Le Pen, a right wing extremist. It gave a good idea of how many French people were actually supporting such racist ideas and it turned out the 20% of the first turn was repeated in the 2nd, where the 80% remaining massively voted for Chirac even if they didn't like him because they hated the only alternative (Le Pen).

But when Bush ask the American people if they still support him on issues like the war in Iraq, he got his support.

Besides, a country where at least 10% of it's population is foreign born and probably half of those here illegally can hardly be considered a failure. Why DO they keep coming???

Economical reasons ? It's the same in Europe. Immigrations is very high in countries like the UK, France or Germany, but for some reason nobody goes to Eastern Europe or Greece, though Greece is as democratic and free as anywhere else (and thery really arethe first democracy in the history). IMO, people come more for money for the illusion that everybody is rich and look like Hollywood stars than for democracy or American lifestyle.

There is also a question of proximity. Europe gets most of its immigrants from Africa or inside Europe itself, but the US get them mostly from Mexico, South America or East Asia nowadays.

It might also be because it's so easy to become American ; one just needs to be born there, even if the mother was just on a short-stay in the US. Finally, it's because the US has always been a land of immigration. See how hard it is to get a long-term visa or nationailty in Japan, China or India compared to Western countries. Even if you are rich enough to stay all your life without working in China or India, you'll need a visa to stay even a single day. The US has a lottery that gives out permanent visas (green cards, check this : http://www.usais.org/ ) to 50.000 people every year (don't tell me they aren't actively seeking immigrants !)

 

[Iron Chef]

No offense taken mate . In fact, I agree with much of what you stated. I'm sure i'm not alone when I say we (as Americans who have had the benefit of travelling abroad) often run into small-minded people everyday. I can recall one specific example that was somewhat recent (a few weeks ago) where I was engaged in discussion with several of the people I work with at my day job. Somehow the discussion turned to foreign affairs and eventually I had mentioned that I had lived in Japan for some time and was also entertaining the notion of possibly seeking employment in China post-graduation. One of the women (a mother of three who was in her late twenties), knowing I was fluent in conversational Japanese assumed I would have little difficulty picking up the language where I left off should I move to China...

I didn't quite understand what she had meant until I probed her further and she said (much to my incredulation), "Don't they speak the same language? I mean, Chinese and Japanese... aren't they the same thing?" She was absolutely serious. Needless to say... I had a difficult time concealing my shock that such a person in this day and age actually thought there were not any differences between Chinese and Japanese. And to think this mother of three was raising her children to be the future of our country. Scary thought...

 

[Maciamo]

I think this is what people mean when they say they hate America :

I can't stand what America stands for. It is arrogant, obnoxious, unthinking and bullying. BUT, I'm married to an American, and a Texan at that, which just goes to show that you should blame the faults of the country on the individuals, as they aren't all that bad.
Ben Christie, UK

It's like a Chinese friend of mine in Tokyo who says he hates the US for what it represents (foreign policy...), but actually seeks American friends.

I also accidentally fell on this site, the experience of an American in Japan, and found the following comment much in libe with what you said above :

I'll be the first to admit it. Your average American residing in the continental
US is fairly ignorant when it comes to things Japanese.

Three examples come to mind. When I returned home to see my family after being in Japan for a half a year, I temporarily did a "baito", or part-time job, at my mother's company to earn some extra spending money. It's a relatively small company with fewer than twenty employees. OK, my hometown is fairly rural, but that is no excuse. Everyone knew that I had been to Japan to learn the native tongue. Not long after I had started working I was treated to the following: "Let's hear you speak some Japan." "They speak Spanish there, don't they?" My favorite was when I was helping one of the workers in my mother's office furniture warehouse deliver some furniture. We were driving in a company van and listening to the radio when we heard an Asian-language sounding program. The
worker inquired as to whether I could understand what was being said. I replied that I couldn't because it was Chinese not Japanese. He responded incredulously, "What? There's a difference?" Need I say more?

But although these may be a few extreme examples, I am glad (well kind of) to know that this lack of knowledge is not just concentrated in the area that I like to refer to as my hometown. No matter where you go in the US, you will most likely stumble across the same sort of person. Just what sort of person am I referring to? .... continues here

shouganai

 

[Maciamo]

Sorry, I am very talkative, but there is so much to say on this vast subject.

I can't help voicing my concern at how some people view their own country. Here are comments taken from the BBC "Have your say" with which I disagree :

American democracy is and shall remain the greatest system of governance in the world. No other system promotes and protects the welfare of peoples everywhere as well, even if we don't always like the way it does this.

The US iare hardly a welfare state. In Europe, medical care and education from kindergarten to university is generally free or mostly paid for by the government. Unemployed people get enough money to survive. Europeans criticise the US for their harsh treatment of minor drug offense (in the freest country on earth :blush: ), death penalty and otherwise overpermissive laws for such things as guns and driving licence's minimum age (I can't believe14 year old kids can drive in some states).

Of all the current governments in the world today the US government is the oldest. Our system is not perfect but it is one of the best. I have travelled the world and yes Americans do have a different view then most other people. We believe in taking care of ourselves not relying on the state we are not socialist in nature but individualistic. Compared to most countries our constitution is vague and short. But the US stands by her allies and does not turn her back on her friends. Over half of all food aid and the majority of financial aid comes from the US. As a country yes we have made mistakes but they have not been as bad as many made by other countries. We do not perceive ourselves as better or worse then others just different. Yet millions of people line up to enter our country every day.

I don't know what makes the US government better than dozens of European ones, that of Australian, Canada, Japan, Singapore and other world democracies. who knows, this guy who has travelled the world might just have been to Africa, the Middle East or China. It's not by visiting a country a few days that he would have an idea of what the government in this or that country does more or less than in the US.
Americans are not socialist ? That sounds like cold-war propaganda ? sn't it funny that so many Americans don't se the difference between socialism and communism ? Most European countries are capitalist, individualistic AND socialist (welfare state, left-wing government). That is no contradiction.

What's the point of saying that the US stands by its allies ? Over what period of time ? France helped Americans to get their independence from Britain, but today the US sieds with Britain and call French cheese-eater-surrender-monkeys (no one has similar ridiculous name for Americans in France, eventhough they are not appreciated).

The majority of aid and charity in the world comes from the EU, not the US. Proportionally, the EU gives about 3times more, and its population is 30% higher.

 

[mdchachi]

Just a couple of quick comments:

> Unfortunately, more than 50% of those people have voted for him and some support him fervently.

This is factually incorrect. About 24.9% voted for Bush, about 25% voted for Gore and about 50% didn't vote at all.

> It's got freedom, but anybody can carry a gun

Thank God for that. In many other countries only the criminals and the (often corrupt) police/military have access to guns.

> driving licence's minimum age

The low driving ages are came about out of necessity and you will mostly find the lowest ages in rural states where kids worked from an early age.

> why in the hell is it always about Republican and Democrats ?

The American system is naturally aligned with a two-party system because elections are won with a vote of > 50%. If no candidate wins first, then the top two have a run-off election. Also the way federal campaign funds are allocated I believe play a role in reinforcing the strength of the two large parties.


As others have stated, there is some danger in talking about Americans this and Americans that. I doubt the Americans you meet up with on alt.politics or whatever forums you hang out in are representative of the population at large.

 

[Elizabeth]

Re: Re: Re: What do you think of America?

There is indeed a connnection between the administration and the populace. They are the ones who elect the president and Congress, aren't they ? Contrarily to Japan, I am happy to see that there are all kinds of completely different political parties, from Libertarians to Fundamentalists. But why in the hell is it always about Republican and Democrats ? In lots of European countries the government has to create coalition of 3 or 4 parties because of a too great diversity. It's not uncommon that the ruling party would be out of the government at the next election.

I honestly don't see much of a connection between the two-party, republican system and anti-Americanism. But at least in the US both the Democratic and Republican parties on the national level are forced to create broad coalitions on the issues as opposed to being a single, special interest organization such as you find with the environmental / immigration parties in Europe, religious ones in Israel, etc that can bring down a government on a very narrow majority.

Economical reasons ? It's the same in Europe. Immigrations is very high in countries like the UK, France or Germany, but for some reason nobody goes to Eastern Europe or Greece, though Greece is as democratic and free as anywhere else (and thery really arethe first democracy in the history). IMO, people come more for money for the illusion that everybody is rich and look like Hollywood stars than for democracy or American lifestyle.

Well, of course there are many reasons. Economic, family reunification, to study, skills that need to be filled, etc. Unfortunately the allotment of refugees and political asylum seekers only make up about 10% of residents/citizens/illegals. And even if the US economic growth is 2x that of Europe without it being a worldly and intellectual country, it is doing an awful lot of good for those people able to obtain work.

There is also a question of proximity. Europe gets most of its immigrants from Africa or inside Europe itself, but the US get them mostly from Mexico, South America or East Asia nowadays.

Well, just a little over half from Latin America or Mexico. The others have to make an extra effort I guess, or come here as students or professionals.

It might also be because it's so easy to become American ; one just needs to be born there, even if the mother was just on a short-stay in the US. Finally, it's because the US has always been a land of immigration. See how hard it is to get a long-term visa or nationailty in Japan, China or India compared to Western countries. Even if you are rich enough to stay all your life without working in China or India, you'll need a visa to stay even a single day. The US has a lottery that gives out permanent visas (green cards, check this : http://www.usais.org/ ) to 50.000 people every year (don't tell me they aren't actively seeking immigrants !)

I think the immigration laws in Canada, a more reasonable comparision, may be more relaxed than the US, but again what this has to do with America's failures is unclear.

 

[Maciamo]

Re: Re: Re: Re: What do you think of America?

I think the immigration laws in Canada, a more reasonable comparision, may be more relaxed than the US, but again what this has to do with America's failures is unclear.

You are changing the subject. You (and some people on the BBC forum, I've realised) came up with the fact that people from around the world still come to live in the US. I've never said this had a connnection with America's failure. As everybody seems to agree, the US is great for its economy (world's richest nation) and relative freedom (though not by European standard), but it can also come under harsh criticism in other fields, such as foreign policy (bully, self-centered, militaristic, doesn't respect international laws, the UN, world's fisrt poluter that doesn't care about ratifying the Kyoto agreements, etc.), consumerist culture, fundamentalist Christian establishment, and a number of other issues (death penalty, guns, and so on).

But if the US are under fire now, it's mainly due to their foreign policy, especially because of Iraq, but retrospectively everything since the end of WWII (Korea, Viernam, Chile, Colombia, Panama, Nicaragua, Cuba, Iraq 1991, Okinawa, Afghanisthan...).

I think this comment says clearly that without Bush and what he represents (fundamentalist, militaristic, arrogant world "savers" that doesn't know the difference between deflation and devaluation) is the cause of the USA's bad image in the world at the moment :

The policy of America has changed a lot. Six years ago everyone wanted to see President Clinton when he was in Brussels. The crowd was cheering. Now when President Bush came, no one wanted him. Why? The reason is the changed and wrong messages they send to the world. They let the world feel that everyone is equal, but Americans are still a step higher. Just look to the International Court in the Netherlands. Every international rule that exist has been broken by them. But it is not the people in America who are the problem but the government. Through a bad government the best state in the world can even go down and I think there are a lot of examples of that in the history.
Johan, Belgium

From outside the US, the president and his administartion are the image of America. Americans might not feel fairly represented, but that is however how they will be seen by people who don't live or have never been to the US. The fact that Bush is strongly in favor of death penalty and withdrew from the Kyoto treaty only worsen his case. If you disagree with that, why not take the streets and protest till there is a change ? Because not enough people disagree enough with Bush or because they aren't that free to protest ?

 

[kirei_na_me]

I also have a lot of respect for you Iron Chef, Kirei-na-me and Elizabeth. You are among the best people I've met on such forums, but unfortunately, my experience of other forums (not necessarily realted to Japan) with a strong American majority make me think you are exceptions rather than the rule (and Josh is an angel compared to others I've met).

Thanks for saying so, Maciamo.

To me, it's usually pointless arguing with mainstream Americans because you will never get through to them. Usually, they are brought up knowing but one, narrow way of thinking and that, you cannot change.

Yeah, people still come to the US, but it's mainly because of the glossed over picture the US paints everywhere. The US government is not nice to those people that come here, though. Have you been through the Greencard process lately? I have. I also have a friend who desperately wanted to stay out of Japan, but because he's having such a hard time with the INS, he has finally decided to move to Canada instead. Also, how can the US afford to pay all these people when we're shutting down companies right and left because they're going to the very countries these people fled from?

The reason Bush backed out of Kyoto was because for one, the US burning up more gasoline than anyone else in the world and it would inconvinience them--it would've been bad for business. With the huge corporations, the swarm of Lincoln Navigators and Hummers guzzling 5 mpg, and what about the military? There are fighter jets running practice missions over my house every week. You know, those things burn up a heck of a lot of fuel. Bush knew how much work it would be to clean up the US and how much money it would cost, and that is why he backed out of the Kyoto treaty. There are books that state the facts.

If people believe that oil billionaires care about their well-being, they are wrong. They only care about each other. Bush is talking big and bold about his new tax break for families. What is it? He's giving families 400 dollars back for each child? Oh, and only to the families that are in a certain income bracket and have paid out a large enough sum to the government to get some back. America is trillions of dollars in debt, so why do that?

There's a nice, very unbiased book out now called Rogue State by William Blum--that I'm reading right now--that every American should read. Also, books by Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Ramsey Clark, Jim Hightower, etc. Books by insiders that have been there.

By the way, I came upon a very interesting quote made by the original George Bush in this Rogue State book that I found interesting:

"I will never apologise for the USA. I don't care what the facts are."

For people that want to blast me for being unpatriotic and a traitor or whatever, I will have to disagree. I was born in Virginia, raised in North Carolina, and travelled a lot before coming back to Virginia and settling down. This small farming town in southern Virginia is my home and it is where I feel comfortable. There are good people that surround me, it's beautiful, and the air is clean, but that doesn't mean I have to like the way the country is run. The US has the potential to be great, but the government needs to get its priorites straight. It needs to stop spending money on military and bailing Enron out, and it needs to start spending money on things that really matter, like education and healthcare.

 

[Haivart]

Fascinating discussion. I was in Tennessee (the South) last week, and even that's a vastly different (conservative, fundamentalist, etc.) culture than what I grew up with (Detroit).

I wonder what kind of research (if any) has been done (excluding schoolchildren) about international knowledge/ignorance of Americans. I'll bet there are major differences between urban/rural, geographical location of respondants and educational and economic levels.

As for the electoral college-- it's time is over and should be abolished.

 

[Maciamo]

I wonder what kind of research (if any) has been done (excluding schoolchildren) about international knowledge/ignorance of Americans. I'll bet there are major differences between urban/rural, geographical location of respondants and educational and economic levels.

Yeah, I thought about that too, but lot's of interesting people on this forum are actually from rural areas. Social level is surely important, but in the US more than anywhere else it seems easy to get rich very quickly, so money shouldn't define what social classes are. Tricky problem in this case, except if your parents are millionaire, you went to prep school and Harvard or Princeton, it's not clear what upper-class means (certainly not the nouveaux riches of Hollywood).

The coup de grace is listenning to George W. as he is supposed to be representative of the educated as president. Let's hail "Chomsky president !" (ah, sorry, I forgot that I was not American )

 

[jeisan]

There are fighter jets running practice missions over my house every week. You know, those things burn up a heck of a lot of fuel.

actually jet engines run off kerosine not gasoline.

yeah. i agree with most of whats being said. america has been slipping further and further down the tube. i was 17 at the time bush was elected now i feel im stuck with this ass who i had no say of in the 1st place. and now i might be drug into a war because of it. america has way too many ignorant people in it for the masses to be makeing desicions that effect the world. somewhere we f***ed up. i wish it wasnt so. im am honestly considering moving to another country at this point.

 

[kirei_na_me]

Pardon moi, s'il vous plait. Kerosene it is. Maybe I should have just said petroleum products.