Immigration What do you think about illegal immigrants?

[Ailchu]

Ailchu: This notion of anyone who wants to control immigration is labeled at best "xenophobe" or on the worst case "Nazi/Facist" is exactly the same thing here in the USA. Rather than debate what is immigration vs. illegal immigration, what is the right of the Nation State to ensure the immigrants that are being admitted are those who can be easily assimilated vs. those who will likely never be assimilated, the modern left immediately goes with the terms you used (Leftwing Media, Academe etc). The last President in this country that I can say I was positively for was Ronald Reagan. In every election since, it is more Who I have been against. Today we have someone praising Fidel Castro running? Why does nobody scream "Communist" and remember what the likes of Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, etc, etc, which is and was just as bad is Nazism.

So what is it you are exactly for. Uncontrolled immigration to Europe.

and you immediately jump to the conclusion that i'm for uncontrolled immigration. is that also common in the political right of the USA? where did i say this? and where did i say that you are a xenophobe if you are against it? however if you are against it because of ethnic reasons then there is only a very thin line before we enter fascism and then nazism.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Ailchu: I seems to me you implied it quite strongly. The mere throwing around nazi and facists actually discredits those who uses it because if everyone who disagrees with the modern Left is that, then there are no nazis (and fascism vs. Nazism in fact in my view are different). Conservatism and Nationalism does not mean wanting to colonize and attack other countries. In fact, I like many here in the USA saw in Trump someone whose instincts about US interventionism and regime change policies were "poppycock.", as his instincts on controlling illegal immigration and his view on the Court system here in the USA, were all correct.

Nobody in the modern Nationalist movement is calling for massing armies and invading other countries. In fact, I take the view the only Just War is one of self defense (e.g, Saint Augustine, Saint Thomas Aquinas) So equating what modern Nationalism is calling for with the movements of the early 20th century is a red-herring at best and can be interpreted as an ad hominem. Rather than see the US use military intervention, I am in fact one a Conservative, and there are many others, who wants to see the USA retract from the world and stop this Neo-Con and Neo-liberal interventionist foreign policies. Why should young Americans get sent to die in Middle East wars. If they want to fight and kill each other, let them. At some point, they will kill each other or come to the point where they are tired of killing each other.

And Xenophobe implies irrational fear. I don't fear people purely do to ethnicity. That would be irrational. Fearing what has been coming into Europe is not Irrational, in my view. A Europe that does not value its own history, cultural, traditions, and yes its spiritual legacy (even if many today there are agnostic) has created a "vacum". Hllaire Belloc warned of this even before WW2. As early as Aristotle, the scientist of his time argued "nature hates a vacum", others followed and said, well not for long, as something will fill it. Well societies can be seen this way as well. The question is what will fill the "vacum in Europe."

 

[Yetos]

and you immediately jump to the conclusion that i'm for uncontrolled immigration. is that also common in the political right of the USA? where did i say this? and where did i say that you are a xenophobe if you are against it? however if you are against it because of ethnic reasons then there is only a very thin line before we enter fascism and then nazism.

the distance from a consious citizen, to a warm citizen *countrykeeper(compare householding), to a patriot to a nationalist to a chauvistist to to .... to Nazist is huge,
not a thin line.

only citizens of the world and G Sorros followers can not see this.

 

[Twilight]

Instead of hauling Illegal Latin American Immigrants in cages, I’d prefer that ICE built a heavily guarded sanctuary villages. If the Latin Americans are serious about immigrating to America, than I’m sure they can sit down with ICE and file immigration paperwork while living in a sanctuary village.

 

[Jovialis]

Instead of hauling Illegal Latin American Immigrants in cages, I’d prefer that ICE built a heavily guarded sanctuary villages. If the Latin Americans are serious about immigrating to America, than I’m sure they can sit down with ICE and file immigration paperwork while living in a sanctuary village.

The we can't even get our own homeless people off the streets, and you want illegal aliens to be provided shelter? That will be just more of a magnet for people to come here illegally, if they know they will be provided these accommodations. On top of that, who is going to pay for this? Maybe their own countries should provide them with these accommodations.

 

[Ailchu]

Ailchu: I seems to me you implied it quite strongly. The mere throwing around nazi and facists actually discredits those who uses it because if everyone who disagrees with the modern Left is that, then there are no nazis (and fascism vs. Nazism in fact in my view are different). Conservatism and Nationalism does not mean wanting to colonize and attack other countries. In fact, I like many here in the USA saw in Trump someone whose instincts about US interventionism and regime change policies were "poppycock.", as his instincts on controlling illegal immigration and his view on the Court system here in the USA, were all correct.

Nobody in the modern Nationalist movement is calling for massing armies and invading other countries. In fact, I take the view the only Just War is one of self defense (e.g, Saint Augustine, Saint Thomas Aquinas) So equating what modern Nationalism is calling for with the movements of the early 20th century is a red-herring at best and can be interpreted as an ad hominem. Rather than see the US use military intervention, I am in fact one a Conservative, and there are many others, who wants to see the USA retract from the world and stop this Neo-Con and Neo-liberal interventionist foreign policies. Why should young Americans get sent to die in Middle East wars. If they want to fight and kill each other, let them. At some point, they will kill each other or come to the point where they are tired of killing each other.

And Xenophobe implies irrational fear. I don't fear people purely do to ethnicity. That would be irrational. Fearing what has been coming into Europe is not Irrational, in my view. A Europe that does not value its own history, cultural, traditions, and yes its spiritual legacy (even if many today there are agnostic) has created a "vacum". Hllaire Belloc warned of this even before WW2. As early as Aristotle, the scientist of his time argued "nature hates a vacum", others followed and said, well not for long, as something will fill it. Well societies can be seen this way as well. The question is what will fill the "vacum in Europe."

i implied it quite strongly because you implied it quite strongly. can't change the fact that the brothers of Italy have clear ties to neo fascism. you also couldn't make your position clear and evaded my questions.

the distance from a consious citizen, to a warm citizen *countrykeeper(compare householding), to a patriot to a nationalist to a chauvistist to to .... to Nazist is huge,
not a thin line.

only citizens of the world and G Sorros followers can not see this.

then explain, how different is the wish for conserving culture and ethnicity from nazism? what's the huge difference?

 

[Yetos]

then explain, how different is the wish for conserving culture and ethnicity from nazism? what's the huge difference?

even if I tell you, since you are citizen of world,
you 'll never understand,

but I will give you an example,
if I go to your country legaly, and Speak my mother language or English,
and go to 10 cafe, ask for a snack and a cup of coffee.
how many will find a translator,
how many they understand but do not speak in purpose,
how many will tell me 'go away',
how many will spit on my coffee?
how many will not serve me?
cause I am foreign?
cause I do not speak local language.
etc etc.

BUT NONE WILL SENT ME TO Auswitch, or kill me cause I am foreign,
So the distance from a descent consious citizen, to a Nazi IS BIG.

that is legaly,

as for illegaly,
then the situation change,

 

[Yetos]

Erdogan is falling.<br>
<br>
[video=youtube;PlFtA3kutKw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=107&amp;v=PlFtA3kutKw&amp;feat ure=emb_ logo[/video]<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
But as always the beast before its death, makes a titanic effort, to make his biggest blind damage.<br>
Videos of Attacking Erdogan's puppets against Syrrians and Syrrian properties.<br>
<br>

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1235177856654872578

<br>
<br>

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1235177324070526982

<br>
<br>

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1235190186914570240

<br>

they frighten the immigrants with Guns.
<strong>

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1235224781244583936

and this<br>
[video=youtube;ddUnA4g-h_Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&amp;v=ddUnA4g-h_Y&amp;feature=emb_logo[/video]<br>
<br>
Every time Greek police reach nearby fench to repair the fench, <br>
Turkey police which also guides the mass of 'immigrants' shoots chemicals against Greek police
<strong>

YET NONE IS DEAD OR SHOOTED IN HEAD 5 DAYS NOW.<br>
THAT IS ANOTHER BIG distance DIFFERENCE AMONG PATRIOT AND NAZIst.<br>
<br>
<br>
</strong>

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Exactly how do the Brothers of Italy have ties to facism? Who says that? The far left in Europe. Everyone to the right of Lenin to them is neo Facism. This is like the boy who cried wolf. Conserving the culture by "limiting immigration" and deporting those who enter illegally and commit crimes is what I stated. I have never nor will ever advocate wars of conquest or in fact, as I stated, wars of regime change which both Bush, explicitly in Iraq, and Obama, implicitly with Syria and Libya, pushed for. Nothing I have stated is in the orbit of being the same as starting wars of conquest and destroying other countries and killing people, which on traditional Catholic Just War theology, I reject ex ante. I think I was clear on what I stated and I clearly stated I would not want to live in a country that was predominantly Muslim or predominately non European. So if conserving Culture and ethnicity is nazism, then there are tons of non European countries who do the same thing. You don't think Japan's immigration policy is designed to protect Japanese culture. You don't think South Korea's is. Both of those are very strong modern economies and rather than open their borders to mass immigration, they are using technology and robotics to fill jobs that use to be done by labor precisely because they want to retain their countries unique cultural and ethnic traditions, as they have the right to do. China's economy has now gotten close to the US. Rather than import labor from other countries, they have started putting manufacturing facilities in other parts of the world (they are heavily invested in sub-Saharan Africa) to create supply chains around the world along with developing those economies so in the future those countries will develop and potentially provide another customer base for Chinese goods. What you don't see is China opening its borders to mass migration.

So lets just agree that you and I don't agree. I am Conservative, believe in the integrity of National sovereignty and borders and reject the Project launched and yes while I am well educated, still confess the Nicene Creed of my ancestors and thus traditional Catholic (although I will admit, I am not a big fan of Pope Francis). So I don't like trying to label anyone but I think it is obvious you and I are philosophically and politically opposites.

And for the record, you quoted two different people in your post.

 

[Twilight]

The we can't even get our own homeless people off the streets, and you want illegal aliens to be provided shelter? That will be just more of a magnet for people to come here illegally, if they know they will be provided these accommodations. On top of that, who is going to pay for this? Maybe their own countries should provide them with these accommodations.

I get what you are saying Jovialis, I’m not calling for open borders, open borders is insanely irresponsible. I’m instead calling for a fenced in plot of land ICE can dump the migrants too; with a blanket or tent to sleep in.

I’m not thrilled to say this but we are already spending over a billion dollars just to cage these migrants and provide beds as it is. Let me ask you this, are we going to pay adults almost $1,000 a day per illegal immigrant for beds in the detention Centers or should we try a different solution? However I agree, if America is legally able to foot the ICE bill to Mexico I’d be more than willing to oblige. ������
If there are any loopholes, please feel free, I just entered into the discussion.
I’m not calling for “Open borders” that is crazy and I think tribal politics is what’s keeping up from finding a solution. However, if you add extra fencing to surround the sanctuary village, the migrants at least a simple tent; $50-$100 or even better just a blanket $25-50 in open fenced off land; and guarded mind you, the Federal government won’t have to pay for Detention center bedding.
ICE can come in and weed out the migrants in a small area, if the immigrant don’t want to cooperate with the legal paperwork within a week, they can be told to leave with an escort.
However, I as a tax payer seriously don’t want to be paying almost $1,000 per night just so a detainee can sleep in it. I’d rather my tax dollars would be better spent by just giving the immigrant a blanket or tent and go camping outside in the guarded fenced in sanctuary village.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_federal_budget#Appropriations_legislation
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/20/cost-us-immigrant-detention-trump-zero-tolerance-tents-cages.htmlhttps://www.google.com/amp/s/financ...ers-more-than-45-million-daily-193126827.html
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gq.com/story/trump-detention-camps-cost/amp
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.wa...al-immigrant-children-cost-taxpayers-670-day/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.al...dren-custody-2019-report-191112132803440.html

 

[Salento]

@Palermo_Trapani

I don’t think that they’re Fascists.

... imho the nostalgic (MSI) Fiamma Tricolore in their Logo doesn’t help,

... some might get the wrong idea.

 

[Twilight]

i implied it quite strongly because you implied it quite strongly. can't change the fact that the brothers of Italy have clear ties to neo fascism. you also couldn't make your position clear and evaded my questions.



then explain, how different is the wish for conserving culture and ethnicity from nazism? what's the huge difference?

I respectfully disagree, border patrols have nothing to do with the Nazis.
Going for Italy’s Defense, Italy switched sides after Mussolini was overthrown in 1943; he given capital punishment after 2 years later in captivity.
https://learning.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/13/oct-13-1943-italy-switches-sides-in-world-war-ii/

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Salento: Well only in modern Europe, or more accurately parts of it (i.e. EU, Davos crowd, BBC, those who support the UN dictating internal national policy in ones home country) is someone who promotes changing tax and regulatory policy in Italy to help young families raise a family, promoting appropriate patriotism and being proud of the culture and identity of your country and wanting to stop "illegal immigration" which is not by definition "legal immigration" called a facist.

Every US President (Republican) since Ronald Reagan has been called a Facist by the American Left. Reagan I was a fan of us, George Herbert Walker Bush, not so much. But this is the playbook of the American Left that has been employed since the 1980's and it seems to be the same play book employed by the European Left. Anyone that challenges our policies of weak borders, weakening national sovereignty, the free and unrestricted movement of peoples from the 3rd world into the West so that rich elites can have people clean their lawns and cook their food, all at dirt cheap pay, and take care of the multiple properties and homes all around Europe or world, well they call you facist, xenophobe, etc, etc, etc.

 

[Ailchu]

Exactly how do the Brothers of Italy have ties to facism? Who says that? The far left in Europe. Everyone to the right of Lenin to them is neo Facism. This is like the boy who cried wolf.

how about the history of this party? Giorgia Meloni herself was part of the youth front of the MSI a clearly fascist party. or how about those supporters who still use the roman salute?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/apr/30/italy

this happens regularly but they don't mind


this was the election poster of Caio Giulio Cesare Mussolini

seems like his name is quite important.

here is what Giorgia writes about the death of 3 fascists who were killed by left extremists.

https://www.fratelli-italia.it/2020...ta-non-tornino-mai-piu-quegli-anni-maledetti/
translated:

"?42 years ago, the massacre of Acca Larentia. It is an open wound in the history of our nation: three young people are killed by hatred in a time when doing politics on the right meant putting one's life on the line. Fratelli d?Italia remembers those three young patriots who dreamed of a strong and free Italy. May those damned years never come back, truth and justice for Franco, Francesco and Stefano ?.

This is what the president of Fratelli d?Italia, Giorgia Meloni writes on Facebook."

of course CasaPound likes to hear this

in 2019 members of the brothers of italy marched together with casapound to remember a fascist who was killed by left extremists 1975
https://milano.corriere.it/19_april...65-11e9-908c-de3daaacb716.shtml?refresh_ce-cp

some moments from then
https://www.shutterstock.com/de/video/clip-1028576651-milan-italy---30-april-2019-italian

 

[Palermo Trapani]

So someone who was killed by Leftwing extremist (is that a way of not saying Stalinist in Italy, or Marxist) was remembered. Again, under whose definitions is Brothers of Italy a facist party? Who is defining them as such? As I said before, every Republican president here in the United States of America since the election of President Ronald Reagan in 1980 has been labeled by the American Left as "Facists" I have seen this movie before. This is out of the playbook of Leftists, use the media, use entertainment, use academia, etc, to label your political opponents "facists."

I am well aware of the Italian Social Movement which was a post WW2 party that many former members of Mussolini's party joined. The party she is part of is a post facist party, it is not facist. It was highly "Anti Communist" which is the real reason the modern European left labels it Facists. That is its crime. In post WW2, it always allied itself with the Christian Center Left/Right Italian Democrats, who were also very anti Communist. Of course, all of this was during the Cold War so much of this Facist label towards The Brothers of Italy is a residual of the propaganda from the likes of none other than Comrade Joseph Stalin. This same party that she was part of from all that I have gathered suppported Italy joining NATO (which was set up to do what? Stop Comrade Joseph Stalin and the now former USSR), they supported the formation of the State of Israel!!, and the Italy into the European Monetary union (economic union).

So whatever the MSI was, ok, it was post facist party of which some of Mussolini's former supporters joined. I am sure there are many pre-WW2 marxists who joined the Italian Communist party in Post WW2. It seems many of their children and grandchildren run the Media in Italy. The Brothers of Italy is a new party which is a real Conservative party in Italy. Attempts to label it Facists is a tactic as I have already noted been used by the Far Left in America (1980 Reagan Election) and also Europe to attack Conservative parties that believe in National borders, law and order, promoting policies that support young married couples being able to raise a family, etc.

So again, I don't accept your defining of Ms. Meloni as a facist nor do I think the Brothers of Italy is a facist party. I will agree that it is a True Conservative Italian party that reminds me of the Ronald Reagan era Republican party with a little bit of Trumpism, i.e. a politician willing and not scared to tackle "illegal immigration" despite the yelling and screaming of the Left.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

That is the cousin of Alessandra Mussolini, who is granddaughter of Benito who I think was at one time part of Forza Italia party. I think she got tired of Berlusconi's nonsense and joined Meloni's party. So the Alessandra should suffer for the sins of her Grandfather, as her cousin. Again, I don't believe in guilt by ancestral association. Another tactic of the modern left. I believe in the theological term "original sin" but that is a different discussion for a different site.

 

[Salento]

The concept of Libertarian Conservatism is still not well known, the Politicians who fail to explain it are often accused of extremism, even though the goal is to prioritize their Country, intervene as little as possible in the lives of their Citizens, and in the problems of foreigners and other Nations.

 

[Ailchu]

That is the cousin of Alessandra Mussolini, who is granddaughter of Benito who I think was at one time part of Forza Italia party. I think she got tired of Berlusconi's nonsense and joined Meloni's party. So the Alessandra should suffer for the sins of her Grandfather, as her cousin. Again, I don't believe in guilt by ancestral association. Another tactic of the modern left. I believe in the theological term "original sin" but that is a different discussion for a different site.

they don't suffer for it, and i don't think they should, but the point is that it's exactly the opposite, their name is beneficial for them. and brothers of italy knows and uses this to catch votes. look at the poster it is literally just the name "Mussolini". his first name doesn't even matter.

 

[Ailchu]

even if I tell you, since you are citizen of world,
you 'll never understand,

but I will give you an example,
if I go to your country legaly, and Speak my mother language or English,
and go to 10 cafe, ask for a snack and a cup of coffee.
how many will find a translator,
how many they understand but do not speak in purpose,
how many will tell me 'go away',
how many will spit on my coffee?
how many will not serve me?
cause I am foreign?
cause I do not speak local language.
etc etc.

BUT NONE WILL SENT ME TO Auswitch, or kill me cause I am foreign,
So the distance from a descent consious citizen, to a Nazi IS BIG.

that is legaly,

as for illegaly,
then the situation change,

noone treats guests bad because they'll leave again. then nothing needs to be "conserved".

but what happens if you want to settle down for whatever reason, maybe you have to flee, maybe you found work or maybe you just fell in love, and you are seen as a threat for the ethnicity? will they implement apartheid? will they send you out of the country or will they just eliminate you if they don't know where to place you?

illegal or legal makes no difference in that case.

 

[Yetos]

noone treats guests bad because they'll leave again. then nothing needs to be "conserved".

but what happens if you want to settle down for whatever reason, maybe you have to flee, maybe you found work or maybe you just fell in love, and you are seen as a threat for the ethnicity? will they implement apartheid? will they send you out of the country or will they just eliminate you if they don't know where to place you?

illegal or legal makes no difference in that case.

Big difference,

Illegal immigrant has nothing to do with legal immigrant has nothing to do with refuggee.

And the one who supports and organise illegal migration is call Human trafficker or better Human Smuggling

STOP HUMAN SMUGGLING NOW,