Were I2a Slavs part of the same tribe?

[Valerius]

I-Y3120's estimated TMCRA is quite before supposed Slavic ethnogenesis (or at least supposed ethnogenesis based on historic records). Even some of the subclades are too early to be connected to Slavs, although the present day population tested are mostly if not all Slavs.

On the contrary, the supposed linguistic data shows that Balto-Slavic split occurred at 1400 years BC. Meaning from that moment onwards, there was a separate pre-proto Slavic ethnolinguistic group. Now surprise-surprise, per the data I see on Yfull, the very first individual bearing I-Y3120 was born... 1400 years BC.

 

[Valerius]

Nah, your statement is totally incorrect.

Slavs do descend from the people I mentioned or their immediate kinsfolk, if indeed 12-13 thousand of years before a Slav cultural and linguistic identity was formed.

So this is very relevant, however distant it may be and however many other groups may have formed from the same.

Not sure I understand your point here. What I'm saying is that before the origin of I-Y3120, the haplogroup I2a carriers weren't Slavs and had no connection whatsoever to Slavs. The Slavs on the other hand have only a genealogical connection via common ancestors to the pre-I-Y3120 people whoever they were but that's not even important because what matters is language, culture, identity etc. Common ancestors with some hunter-gatherers from the late Paleolithic times is a fact but not important.

 

[Who Cares?]

On the contrary, the supposed linguistic data shows that Balto-Slavic split occurred at 1400 years BC. Meaning from that moment onwards, there was a separate pre-proto Slavic ethnolinguistic group. Now surprise-surprise, per the data I see on Yfull, the very first individual bearing I-Y3120 was born... 1400 years BC.

Balto-Slavic split is pure theory. I wouldn't assign it too much value. Real Slavic origin estimation as a recognizable group of people is somewhere between 3rd and 8th century CE

 

[TetaEglantina]

Not sure I understand your point here. What I'm saying is that before the origin of I-Y3120, the haplogroup I2a carriers weren't Slavs and had no connection whatsoever to Slavs. The Slavs on the other hand have only a genealogical connection via common ancestors to the pre-I-Y3120 people whoever they were but that's not even important because what matters is language, culture, identity etc. Common ancestors with some hunter-gatherers from the late Paleolithic times is a fact but not important.

These people were Urnfielders, maybe Lusatians. They were pre Slavs but became significant in the proto Slavic gene pool as a lot of Tollense warriors match closest with Ukrainians, Polish and Slovakians today

 

[Veriu]

On the contrary, the supposed linguistic data shows that Balto-Slavic split occurred at 1400 years BC. Meaning from that moment onwards, there was a separate pre-proto Slavic ethnolinguistic group. Now surprise-surprise, per the data I see on Yfull, the very first individual bearing I-Y3120 was born... 1400 years BC.

You've got it wrong because the first individual bearing I-Y3120 was born in 1400 bc but all Slavs descend from someone who lived in 200 BC meaning that I-Y3120 became Slavic during the early Slavic expansion, it wasn't "originally" Proto-Slavic. It really doesn't matter much though, it was certainly Slavic during the migration period.

 

[Valerius]

You've got it wrong because the first individual bearing I-Y3120 was born in 1400 bc but all Slavs descend from someone who lived in 200 BC meaning that I-Y3120 became Slavic during the early Slavic expansion, it wasn't "originally" Proto-Slavic. It really doesn't matter much though, it was certainly Slavic during the migration period.

This is an option yes. I wouldn't put all my money on Slavic origin of I-Y3120 in 1400 BC but it remains a plausible option at this point. I'd assume as "more likely" the same - that it became Slavicized at a later stage. Whatever I2a was before it entered the Slavic genesis it is a mystery and it is almost pointless to delve on that.

 

[Karabars]

The ruler of the invading Magyars descended from the same I2a group

Who are you referring to? Who were I2a? Since the Magyars' rulers were from the House of Árpád, which is R1a-Z93 (> R-Z2123 > R1a-SUR51 > R1a-ARP: R1a1a1b2a2a1c3a3b).

 

[Who Cares?]

This is an option yes. I wouldn't put all my money on Slavic origin of I-Y3120 in 1400 BC but it remains a plausible option at this point. I'd assume as "more likely" the same - that it became Slavicized at a later stage. Whatever I2a was before it entered the Slavic genesis it is a mystery and it is almost pointless to delve on that.

Why is it pointless? Maybe its pointless for you because you're not member of that subclade, but for some of us that are members we find that information interesting, especially if our own subclades that we belong to split off very early on.

 

[Valerius]

Why is it pointless? Maybe its pointless for you because you're not member of that subclade, but for some of us that are members we find that information interesting, especially if our own subclades that we belong to split off very early on.

My other grandpa is I-S17250 so I was interested in the topic. I said it is pointless not because I want to disregard this interesting question but rather because it is impossible to guess what this was before its Slavic variation. Until some new finding in the future might change that, hopefully.

 

[hrvat22]

You've got it wrong because the first individual bearing I-Y3120 was born in 1400 bc but all Slavs descend from someone who lived in 200 BC meaning that I-Y3120 became Slavic during the early Slavic expansion, it wasn't "originally" Proto-Slavic. It really doesn't matter much though, it was certainly Slavic during the migration period.

What time period do you mean when you say "early Slavic expansion"?

The I2a carriers in the Carpathians are not originally Indo-Europeans or Slavs, which means that they meet Slavic groups, mixed with them, and adopt the Slavic language before the migration of the Slavs, given that the I2a Croats came to the Balkans with a formed Slavic language, and they could not learned that language only during the migration.

Furthermore, Croats have only one dominant Slavic branch, which is the R1a Z280 branch, which means that this mixing must have originated in the Carpathians, before the expansion of other R1a branches, especially M458.

Unfortunately, we do not know when the R1a branches migrated towards the Carpathians, and when we know that, we will also know the approximate time of assimilation of R1a and I2a people. In my opinion, that time would have to be at least 2200 ybp.