Sile
Banned
- Messages
- 5,110
- Reaction score
- 582
- Points
- 0
- Location
- Australia
- Ethnic group
- North Alpine Italian
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
- mtDNA haplogroup
- H95a1 ..Pannoni
I personally don't regard R1b-U106 to be a Germanic haplogroup.It is now concentrated in the Nord-West Block region, especially Frisia.It also has links with Halstatt culture or Unetice culture (which originated in Bohemia - not a Germanic ethnic / cultural / genetic group at that time, although absorbed Germanic influences later on).The Germanics came from the Völkerwander expansion from the North East.The goths which have links with Sweden but are mostly associated with Western Poland.Gothic is attested to be the first Germanic language to have any sizable texts.Gothic is an Eastern Germanic Language (a language zone that is equivalent to todays Poland).The modern Germanic languages origins can be mostly attributed to a developement outside Germany altogether - Poland & the Nordic countries.
Old Frisian was an entirely different language to modern Frisian.The people who lived in Frisia & probably most of Lower Saxony were invaded by various peoples.Firstly by a Norse / Norwegian people - who gave them their name from Yngvi Freyr ancestor of the ingaevones.The Frisians are predominantly R1b-U106, this is not an original Norwegian haplogroup, it was absorbed by their genetic make-up from this North Atlantic contact zone.The Frisian people did not originate from Norway, but an elite conquered them.They were then Conquered by Saxons or aligned with them to resist Frankish advances.The Franks at that time were probably very much of similar genetic origin to Frisians, anyway.Saxons haplogroup is said to be I-M253 (I1) but probably was quite mixed as the Saxons were a confederation of different tribes of different ethnic / genetic backgrounds.I-M253 is high in Denmark & especially, Sweden.The I-M253 in Frisia is from this association.The Frisian language absorbed Norse & then Saxon influences.Nobody really nows what the origin language of these Rb1-U106 was.The Germanic expansion is attested to be from around 2nd century BC.Rb1-U106 people were there long before they assimilated with with a developing Germanic speaking people.
The Franks (wouldn't have been known by that name then) who were very probably Rb1-U106 predominantly are known to be associated with the Batavi who entered the Rhine area around 50 BC.These pre-Frankish people association with this Chatti / Irminonic tribe (Elbe Germanic - a language developed by mixing different influences from different tribes that came into contact) Germanised their language.This would be in an apparently different way to the Frisians who had no contact with the Batavi or other Irminonic tribes.
The early Belgic tribes are associated with Rb1-U152 associated with the Helvetti / La Tene culture.This would have brought another genetic / cultural group into the area.They brought the Italo-Romance gaulish language with them.The Helvetti are said to have tribal links to the Teutones & Cimbri.It has been said that these tribes were not originally Germanic as well.The Franks eventually conquered many of these Belgic tribes who advanced up the Rhine over a few centuries.The Belgae tribes possibly merged with many advancing Irminonic (or pre-Irminonic tribes) thus no longer being a purely Italo-Roman speaking people before they came into contact with the Franks.The Franks divided into dukedomes by dividing the territory they gained between the various sons of these dukes.They eventually formed a Holy Roman Empire in similarity to the old Roman Empire but absorbing the Germanic peoples also by assimilating with the Belgic Gallic / Italo-Roman people who had continued a Roman style of governorship even after the retreat of the Romans to Rome etc.
The Pre-Wallonians seem to been a tribe / tribes who resisted the Franks or Dutch (Flemish) & maintained a more pure Gaulish / Belgic / Italo-Romance heritage.They were the people who started the Industrial Revolution on the continent.They probably absorbed the most of their Germanic / Flemish / Dutch genetics in the 17th century employing farmers from these areas in industrial jobs because they were short of labour as Industrialisation quickly advanced, especially in the areas closest to Flanders.
I do not believe their is any genetic subclade link ( except R1b ) between La Tene and Halstatt except that they are both Gallic-celts .............the halstatt people did not go to LaTene after Halstatt was established.