Vinča, Serbia - Cucuteni cultures 7000 - 2750 BC

[Cinoeye]

[h=3]Lepenski Vir - Vinča, Serbia - Cucuteni cultures 7000 - 2750 BC[/h]

 

[LeBrok]

I moved Cinoeye's post to a new thread. I think Vinca and Cucuteni cultures requires it's own thread.

Recently I did some reading about this big and unusual culture (Cucuteni-Trypillian) that spread from Balkans to West Ukraine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture

-They were settlers, farmers, herders living in wooden houses with clay kilns inside for baking bread.
-They live there during Holocene optimum, a climatic warm and most period for this region of world, between 9 and 5 kya. 4kya climate changed bringing severe droughts, not good for farming, and also causing big migration of Yamna/Dniepr-Don into central Europe and all over Asia, also known as Kurgan hypotheses.
-Their settlements where dense and vast of 15,000! inhabitants, the biggest in the world at this time, and comparable to first Sumerians settlements (which started 500 years later).
-They were rather peaceful folks, not many weapons found, no huge defensive structures.
-This culture survived close to 3,000(!) years till IE/Corded ware arrival.
-They never developed strong political structure or economic centers.
-Vinca culture developed some form of writing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinca_culture
[h=2][/h]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da_symbols

-Cucuteni invented barter token, sort of first coins/money.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barter_tokens_of_the_Cucuteni–Trypillian_culture

 

[LeBrok]

When YDNA is tested, I'm expecting to see overwhelmingly neolithic farmers haplogroups like J2, T, G, E1b1b (if E came with farmers and not as hunter-gatherers in Paleolithic), and maybe some I2 Dinaric and I2b if they were excited about farming back then, lol. At the end of their culture in third millennium we should be getting some R1a.

 

[hope]

That certainly is a strange type of writing..straight away I can see symbols that look like Younger Futhark (Runic) and Elder Futhark and also some that looks like Ogham ! Odd.

 

[how yes no 3]

When YDNA is tested, I'm expecting to see overwhelmingly neolithic farmers haplogroups like J2, T, G, E1b1b (if E came with farmers and not as hunter-gatherers in Paleolithic), and maybe some I2 Dinaric and I2b if they were excited about farming back then, lol. At the end of their culture in third millennium we should be getting some R1a.

well, probably not I2 Dinaric, as it is much younger than Vinca and Cucuteni cultures, but probably lot of parent I2a clade..

btw. are Cucuteni and Vinca cultures known to be related?
or they are here just lumped together due to geographical proximity?


Vinca culture location is more or less Serbia..
it spreads around Danube and also down the Morava-Vardar valleys towards south

Cucuteni culture is north Romania, Moldavia, and south Ukraine...
it is far north from Danube and is spreading over Carpathians...

i think that geographically those are different cultures... river valley people and mountain people...so not sure they were related...

I would place I2a spreading originally around Danube from its start till Black sea...so in my opinion it probably fits more in Vinca than in Cucuteni culture... though it could have been present in both...

That certainly is a strange type of writing..straight away I can see symbols that look like Younger Futhark (Runic) and Elder Futhark and also some that looks like Ogham ! Odd.

i find curious symbol on position (6,6) as it is practically the same symbol as on coat of arms of Serbia...wonder what was its meaning..

 

[zanipolo]

Vinca culture location is more or less Serbia..
it spreads around Danube and also down the Morava-Vardar valleys towards south

Cucuteni culture is north Romania, Moldavia, and south Ukraine...
it is far north from Danube and is spreading over Carpathians...

i think that geographically those are different cultures... river valley people and mountain people...so not sure they were related...

why do you say different cultures, because of today's borders which reflect NOTHING in terms of tribal culture from the ancients or past.

Today's national borders has nothing to do with past history in reflection of cultures.

 

[how yes no 3]

why do you say different cultures, because of today's borders which reflect NOTHING in terms of tribal culture from the ancients or past.

Today's national borders has nothing to do with past history in reflection of cultures.

if you read my post, you would understand that i said different cultures because I did not hear so far that those two cultures are related... and because looking from geographic position point of view it is not too logical that they are related as Vinca is spreading via river valleys, while Cucuteni is spreading in big mountains (Carpathians)...

i mentioned countries only to indicate positions more clearly... don't know how could you misunderstand it...

 

[zanipolo]

if you read my post, you would understand that i said different cultures because I did not hear so far that those two cultures are related... and because looking from geographic position point of view it is not too logical that they are related as Vinca is spreading via river valleys, while Cucuteni is spreading in big mountains (Carpathians)...

i mentioned countries only to indicate positions more clearly... don't know how could you misunderstand it...

Ok, no problem

 

[hope]

Well I`m not sure about 6,6 but it certainly is a strange set of symbols ! There seems to be a bit of almost everything there. The very first symbol looks like the rune " i " , the third in the first row looks like the rune madar " m" or "z" in older Futhark, the ninth in first row looks like the rune kaun "k".
First three in second row look like ogam "s" and two "m"s ! I wouldn`t be surprised if someone else doesn`t spot a few more symbols here.
If I had been shown it without any information my very first reaction would be to think it was a "sampler"..list of different writing symbols. It sure is odd though.

 

[LeBrok]

Well I`m not sure about 6,6 but it certainly is a strange set of symbols ! There seems to be a bit of almost everything there. The very first symbol looks like the rune " i " , the third in the first row looks like the rune madar " m" or "z" in older Futhark, the ninth in first row looks like the rune kaun "k".
First three in second row look like ogam "s" and two "m"s ! I wouldn`t be surprised if someone else doesn`t spot a few more symbols here.
If I had been shown it without any information my very first reaction would be to think it was a "sampler"..list of different writing symbols. It sure is odd though.

It's too bad their culture didn't developed farther, advancing in stone building and pyramids with lots of hieroglyphs, as in Egypt. We would have known more and decipher their writings by now. Maybe just a bad timing, because at 4,800 BP a big cold and dry spell came for this region and killed their civilization.
I'm still amazed how advanced these folk were 7 thousand years ago, one thousand years before Megalithic culture started.

							CHALCOLITHIC (copper age)												BRONZE AGE			Neolithic ends						BRONZE AGE IN NORTHERN EUROPE
Warm				A BIT COLDER		HOT			Warm												A BIT COLDER							VERY COLD AND DRY	Warm					MINOAN WARMING
		Cucuteni-Trypillian culture
		Vinca culture				First copper in europe									Megalithic culture in North-western Europe and some in West Mediteranean
							Dniepr-Don culture														Yamna Culture						Kurgan expansion	Corded Ware, Battle Axe culture
											Vinca symbols
																													Beaker culture, bell-Beaker			G2a3
																			Cuneiform writing in Sumer		Sumerian civilization				Sumerian Alphabet
																																						Mycenaean Greece
																												Helladic period
																											Cycladic civ. Aegean Sea
																														Minoan civilization
																																				Indo-Iranians expend, Andronovo culture
																											Troy is built
																												Giza piramids						chariot IE
																										Pottery wheel in Mesopotamia									Central Asia		Hittites in Anatolia
7.6	7.5	7.4	7.3	7.2	7.1	7	6.9	6.8	6.7	6.6	6.5	6.4	6.3	6.2	6.1	6	5.9	5.8	5.7	5.6	5.5	5.4	5.3	5.2	5.1	5	4.9	4.8	4.7	4.6	4.5	4.4	4.3	4.2	4.1	4	3.9	3.8

 

[LeBrok]

In above post I've experimented and posted my Time line for historic events in Europe. It shows rather well for me, and even the links, cultures linked to Wikipedia pages, work (at least for me). I wonder if other people can see the table with workable links? It was built in MS Excel 2010.
I've also had pictures embedded in some cells, but they didn't copy, too bad.

 

[LeBrok]

well, probably not I2 Dinaric, as it is much younger than Vinca and Cucuteni cultures, but probably lot of parent I2a clade..

btw. are Cucuteni and Vinca cultures known to be related?
or they are here just lumped together due to geographical proximity?

I see your point, the names of these two cultures don't match. ) Therefore there is no way they can be related.

They existed in EXACTLY same time period for 1,000 years, and they bordered with each other! Yes, they are different cultures, but it would be crazy to suppose that they don't influence each other greatly. Can we say a very similar cultures?

 

[hope]

Very good time-line Le Brok. Cucuteni was indeed a very advanced civilization and a large one. They worked copper and alloys and lesser extent silver and gold ( also farming and crop raising). All this you have covered yourself in good detail. Their main thing seems to be their pottery and ceramics. I heard theories that due to amount of wood they used for this along with long practice of burning house after death before re-building anew, may have contributed to de-forestation. Also they came under attack from other steppe tribes (this I know nothing of).
With such a large group as they were there had to be some smaller movement in the face of attacks and lack of resources? If so could we trace where similar practises may have begun around the time of their decline?

 

[LeBrok]

Very good time-line Le Brok. Cucuteni was indeed a very advanced civilization and a large one. They worked copper and alloys and lesser extent silver and gold ( also farming and crop raising). All this you have covered yourself in good detail. Their main thing seems to be their pottery and ceramics. I heard theories that due to amount of wood they used for this along with long practice of burning house after death before re-building anew, may have contributed to de-forestation. Also they came under attack from other steppe tribes (this I know nothing of).
With such a large group as they were there had to be some smaller movement in the face of attacks and lack of resources? If so could we trace where similar practises may have begun around the time of their decline?

Thanks. If you look at this timeline table, at the top, I included climatic changes. It looks like thier decline falls an couple of hundreds of years of cold spells. Crops failed and their civilization too, but IE from steppes were mostly herders, they moved from steppes to central europe and managed to survived. It was the start of Corded Ware culture.
Not sure if burning even a village every 60 years could cause deforestation in surrounding area. They were not that numerous compared to today's populations and today's wood usage is hundreds times greater.

 

[hope]

Thanks. If you look at this timeline table, at the top, I included climatic changes. It looks like thier decline falls an couple of hundreds of years of cold spells. Crops failed and their civilization too, but IE from steppes were mostly herders, they moved from steppes to central europe and managed to survived. It was the start of Corded Ware culture.
Not sure if burning even a village every 60 years could cause deforestation in surrounding area. They were not that numerous compared to today's populations and today's wood usage is hundreds times greater.[/QU

Agreed .

Edit: ( Apologies Le Brok..your post at top of my page has not highlighted)