To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[Southpaw]

One thing to note, is that Vatin is the one which connects both the North > Gava/Ottomany and the South. Belegis II was formed on the basis of Vatin. Yugoslav archaeologists consider this culture quite impressive, and the only reason we didn't got results from them is because they heavily used cremation. Despite that, in lower Danube is where we see the heaviest resistance to Yamnaya incursions from any EEF group to date. Wouldn't be surprised if Vatin was EEF-rich and the one we are looking for. Otherwise, it's impossible archaeology-wise to connect the whole Daco-Thracian koine. If E-V13 comes from Chalcolithic Bulgaria, and if this is the lineage dominating the Daco-Thracian world, then the whole archaeological records were wrong on Balkan-Danubian complex. But, this isn't the case so far, they were quite correct on Illyrians and their inhumating traditions.

I wonder what Oroku Saki thinks of this. Of Chalcolithic Bulgaria vis a vis Vatin and Gava/Ottomany.

 

[Riverman]

One thing to note, is that Vatin is the one which connects both the North > Gava/Ottomany and the South. Belegis II was formed on the basis of Vatin. Yugoslav archaeologists consider this culture quite impressive, and the only reason we didn't got results from them is because they heavily used cremation. Despite that, in lower Danube is where we see the heaviest resistance to Yamnaya incursions from any EEF group to date. Wouldn't be surprised if Vatin was EEF-rich and the one we are looking for. Otherwise, it's impossible archaeology-wise to connect the whole Daco-Thracian koine. If E-V13 comes from Chalcolithic Bulgaria, and if this is the lineage dominating the Daco-Thracian world, then the whole archaeological records were wrong on Balkan-Danubian complex. But, this isn't the case so far, they were quite correct on Illyrians and their inhumating traditions.

I wonder what Oroku Saki thinks of this. Of Chalcolithic Bulgaria vis a vis Vatin and Gava/Ottomany.

There is just one path for the South East, which is that Psenichevo did replace all the others in kind of a backflow moment, creating Basarabi and later Babadag into Geto-Dacian cultures. That would be very strange from the archaeological point of view, but kind of possible, that they expanded within the Channelled Ware networks and replaced the original G?va-people.
I don't think that this is likely at all, but considering the connection Basarabi - Psenichevo - Babadag, its something which could be remotely possible. That is imho, the only way it could work.

 

[Southpaw]

Have you explored any Chalcolithic/EBA Neolithic survivor group in Bulgaria? Anything of importance?

 

[Southpaw]

This sample is interesting:

ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876,0.1161,0.165531,0.010559,-0.059432,0.0437,-0.022032,-0.00846,-0.003923,0.019839,0.056858,-0.00065,0.013788,-0.017393,0.003303,-0.018051,-0.016309,-0.00339,0.004687,0.006788,-0.001,-0.005366,0.003586,0.001602,-0.010845,0.006706

On distances he keeps showing close to Kapitan Andreevo, he is from Western Sicily LBA.

He seems to have been G2a, particularly this subclade: https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient...tree_Variant&searchfor=G-CTS5990&ybp=500000,0

Not among all of them, just 3 of EIA samples.

 

[Riverman]

Have you explored any Chalcolithic/EBA Neolithic survivor group in Bulgaria? Anything of importance?

You follow on Anthrogenica, so you know from my last post that Bulgaria was higher in WHG before the Iron Age too. The locals were kind of a cline from Pannonian Encrusted Pottery -> Southern Romanian Monteoru -> EBA Bulgaria.

From archaeological records we also know, that most of the local cultures came from this direction (Encrusted Pottery came in, groups from Romania), with the exception of groups from Paracin and Brnjica from the Central Balkans and steppe people from Noua-Sabatinovka-Coslogeni. Therefore I see the only solution with multiple migrations, largely under the radar, so no folk migrations, from the Aegean-Anatolia for this increase of EEF-IRN and decrease of WHG-steppe.
I see no local population in the Bronze Age of Bulgaria which was that low in WHG to explain that pattern. They were lower than Monteoru and the Pannonians, but not that low. This must have been a population replacement.

 

[Southpaw]

This sample is interesting:

ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876,0.1161,0.165531,0.010559,-0.059432,0.0437,-0.022032,-0.00846,-0.003923,0.019839,0.056858,-0.00065,0.013788,-0.017393,0.003303,-0.018051,-0.016309,-0.00339,0.004687,0.006788,-0.001,-0.005366,0.003586,0.001602,-0.010845,0.006706

On distances he keeps showing close to Kapitan Andreevo, he is from Western Sicily LBA.

He seems to have been G2a, particularly this subclade: https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient...tree_Variant&searchfor=G-CTS5990&ybp=500000,0

Not among all of them, just 3 of EIA samples.

I ran this sample, and interesting case.

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876
Distance: 2.3083% / 0.02308276
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]22.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Western_Mediterranean[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]21.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]West_Asian[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]20.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Eastern_Balkans_Chalcolithic_EBA[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]14.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Aegean_Balkans_EBA[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]11.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]9.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Corded_Ware_Horizont[/TD]

How did he end up in Western Sicily during Late Bronze Age?

I looked at ancient samples found so far.

I2354 - Pusztataskony-Ledence I.G-CTS5990 (G2a)T2c16200Hungary - Tiszapolgar_ECA
I2369 - BudakalászG-CTS5990 (G2a)J2a1a15186Hungary - Hungary_Baden_LCA
I2368 - Budakalász-Luppa csárdaG-CTS5990 (G2a)U5b5025Hungary - Hungary_Baden_LCA
I8199 - Sima del Ángel, Lucena, Córdoba, AndalusiaG-CTS5990 (G2a)U5b1+16189+@161924650Spain - SE_Iberia_CA
I8365 - Sima del Ángel, Lucena, Córdoba, AndalusiaG-CTS5990 (G2a)H4588Spain - SE_Iberia_CA
I3876 - Sicily, MarcitaG-CTS5990 (G2a)H1+16189!2928Italy - Sicily_LBA
I10364 - Sardinia, AlgheroG-CTS5990 (G2a)J2b1a+16311C!2923Italy - Sardinia_Nuragic_BA

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876
Distance: 2.3083% / 0.02308276
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]22.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Western_Mediterranean[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]21.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]West_Asian[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]20.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Eastern_Balkans_Chalcolithic_EBA[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]14.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Aegean_Balkans_EBA[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]11.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]9.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Corded_Ware_Horizont[/TD]

No doubt, he comes close to Kapitan Andreevo samples, he is picking something similar, not necessarily from the same context, from nearby. There is something going on IMO with regards to the triangle between: Aegean-like, Eastern Balkans Chalcolithic and Carpathian Neolithic. Perhaps something in the middle from lower Danube is reflecting the similarity.

 

[Riverman]

I think we can now safely say that E-V13 was Thracians, but we are still unable to state with certainty how Thracians spread and how E-V13 got there. For me there is absolutely no scenario in which South Eastern Thracian could have been the sole or even main carrier of E-V13 in the later Iron Age. Because of that, the connection to Bosut-Basarabi and Babadag-North G?va is key. It doesn't matter where someone thinks E-V13 started, but every hypothesis needs to account for that, for the whole Thracian/Daco-Thracian network.

 

[Southpaw]

I think we can now safely say that E-V13 was Thracians, but we are still unable to state with certainty how Thracians spread and how E-V13 got there. For me there is absolutely no scenario in which South Eastern Thracian could have been the sole or even main carrier of E-V13 in the later Iron Age. Because of that, the connection to Bosut-Basarabi and Babadag-North G�va is key. It doesn't matter where someone thinks E-V13 started, but every hypothesis needs to account for that, for the whole Thracian/Daco-Thracian network.

Look at the E-L618 which is very likely E-V13 in South-East Macedonia, it comes from a site where nearby were a lot of cremation burials, same for E-V13 Zagreb sample, i think that we still didn't get decent amount of samples in Balkans. Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age is a bad timing to decide who is present and who is not, of course we need samples from this timeline but we also need before and after that, during Early Christian period in order to fully deduce, to invalidate the cremation blocker.

But what we agree, is that Daco-Thracian world was rich in E-V13, and this world was descended of Balkan-Danubian/Balkan-Carpathian cultural complex. I am suspecting Vatin was the core of everything (i might be 100% wrong, but it's just my impression, it's in the right location, right timing and right influence on both North of it in Gava/Ottomany and South of it in Paracin/Brnjica). It's not an Encrusted Pottery people descended, it's a local lower Danube, and it even has similarities with Vinca/Starcevo and Bubanj-Hum III in the south. They likely faced Encrusted Pottery migrants but never fully mixed with them.

And it sits in the triangle between Aegean-like, Eastern Balkans and Western-Balkans and in approximity with Carpathian Mountains.

 

[Riverman]

Look at the E-L618 which is very likely E-V13 in South-East Macedonia, it comes from a site where nearby were a lot of cremation burials, same for E-V13 Zagreb sample, i think that we still didn't get decent amount of samples in Balkans. Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age is a bad timing to decide who is present and who is not, of course we need samples from this timeline but we also need before and after that, during Early Christian period in order to fully deduce, to invalidate the cremation blocker.

But what we agree, is that Daco-Thracian world was rich in E-V13, and this world was descended of Balkan-Danubian/Balkan-Carpathian cultural complex. I am suspecting Vatin was the core of everything (i might be 100% wrong, but it's just my impression, it's in the right location, right timing and right influence on both North of it in Gava/Ottomany and South of it in Paracin/Brnjica). It's not an Encrusted Pottery people descended, it's a local lower Danube, and it even has similarities with Vinca/Starcevo and Bubanj-Hum III in the south. They likely faced Encrusted Pottery migrants but never fully mixed with them.

And it sits in the triangle between Aegean-like, Eastern Balkans and Western-Balkans and in approximity with Carpathian Mountains.

I think there was not enough continuity from Vatin. Even if it was the origin, what I doubt, I rather see Nyirseg as the predecessor in the EBA into Suciu de Sus before G?va, it would be Vatin -> G?va and back. Because Vatin too, just like the Bulgarian groups, had not the impact and size in the critcial time period.

 

[Southpaw]

I think there was not enough continuity from Vatin. Even if it was the origin, what I doubt, I rather see Nyirseg as the predecessor in the EBA into Suciu de Sus before G�va, it would be Vatin -> G�va and back. Because Vatin too, just like the Bulgarian groups, had not the impact and size in the critcial time period.

Nyirseg looks too tied/too north to WHG-like Tell Cultures of the north. Vatin did influence directly Gava/Ottomani. So, i wouldn't wonder if some Vatin colonizers mingled with EBA Ottomani-Fuszesabony. On the South on the basis of Vatin several other cultures formed, Vatin itself ceased, but there was movement, and one will never know what really happened, but in Middle Bronze Age chronology Vatin is considered quite an important culture.

So, because people here get confused, Kapitan Andreevo Iron Age finds or Svilengrad on general is part of Psenicevo Culture, Psenicevo Culture split from Mediana Culture in Central Serbia, it's ultimate origin is either Dubovac Zuto Brdo or nearby in Banat. Again, lower Danube. This is the consensus, archaeological. And they were right on Illyrians, they will be right on general with Thracians as well.

I know old Bulgarian archaeologists considered Gava as direct ancestor of Psenicevo/Svilengrad/Kapitan Andreevo, but that's not the case, they were related culture, Gava was their northern brethren. And on their core, these cultures are not considered Encrusted Cultures from Transdanubia. They had interactions with them, true, but they were not truly related. If somehow Vatin ends up R1b-Z2103/I2a/R1a then i will take of my words. But, you know they were extensive cremation users, otherwise the first results from Serbia would have come from them, since it's the greatest Bronze Age culture of interest to them.

 

[Riverman]

Suciu de Sus being noted as having Southern, probably even some Aegean-related influences. Suciu de Sus and G?va had influences from all directions, so its difficult to assess that.

As for Psenichevo, well, the decorations and styles are reminiscent of Lapus II-G?va rather than Belegis II-G?va, to which sphere Mediana belongs. However, the origin of Psenichevo is hardly disputed and I'm not sure at all. Could be West (Belegis II/Mediana) or East (Lapus II, Holigrady, Babadag). We don't know. The good thing is, that Babadag and Basarabi can be tested, there are even some sporadic earlier remains, unfortunately mostly irregular. So if the research group really want to solve this, they could do it with ease.
It's not their priority obviously, unfortunately, and the logic of the research groups is sometimes motivated by political and organisational considerations, as we can see for the work on the steppe people/PIE as well.

These are really questions for which more data being needed to really solve it.

 

[Southpaw]

Archaeology cannot pinpoint 100% the place of origin, but near to it. I still think the most probable is Vatin and surrounding lower Danube cultures, very likely descended from either Starcevo/Vinca somewhere in approximity. Gava/Ottomany, LBA stage might just be Vatin influences on top of the native Tisza survivors.

Sooner or latter this will either be invalidated or validated.

What you see Belegis-Gava II and increase of channeled-ware, is probably a resurface of native Vatin and immediate destruction of Transdanubian Encrusted Pottery people and Hugelgraber which were invading their territory.

 

[Riverman]

Archaeology cannot pinpoint 100% the place of origin, but near to it. I still think the most probable is Vatin and surrounding lower Danube cultures, very likely descended from either Starcevo/Vinca somewhere in approximity. Gava/Ottomany, LBA stage might just be Vatin influences on top of the native Tisza survivors.

Sooner or latter this will either be invalidated or validated.

What you see Belegis-Gava II and increase of channeled-ware, is probably a resurface of native Vatin and immediate destruction of Transdanubian Encrusted Pottery people and Hugelgraber which were invading their territory.

Belegis II-G?va has a lot of Northern influence from G?va proper.
Also, what's always in my mind, is the modern phylogeny. FTDNA with its new estimates completely confirms the LBA-EIA spread and branching events.
This timing fits perfectly with G?va, but is too late for Vatin and too early for Psenichevo.
The E-V13 people clearly lived together, the bulk, up to this point and split in all directions afterwards. No other formation has a better position to account for that than Gava.

Belegis II-G?va comes second, but the fit is worse on it's own.

 

[alxfb]

Hello, mate!

Please, accept my friend request. I would like to send you a private message.

 

[alxfb]

Hello, Riverman!

Please, accept my friend request. I would like to send you a private message to talk about E-V13 lineage.

(Sorry, I couldn't edit my post above)

 

[Riverman]

Hello, Riverman!
Please, accept my friend request. I would like to send you a private message to talk about E-V13 lineage.
(Sorry, I couldn't edit my post above)

For a private message you don't need to friend up, but you need to post a minimum post count here on this forum. Not sure whether it was 5 or 10...

 

[alxfb]

Thanks! I just sent you the private message. I hope it arrived!

 

[Southpaw]

There was a thread opened by Oroku Saki: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/42815-E-V13-coming-from-Hatvan-culture

The E1b1b/E-V13 sample is from Hatvan Culture, North-Eastern Hungary.

 

[Southpaw]

„ПШЕНИЧЕВО” - археологическа култура, разпространена през ранната желязна епоха в Тракия; пряко продължение на културния комплекс Пловдив - Зимниче. Получава името си от селището край с. Пшеничево, Старозагорска област. Характеризира се с т. нар. „букел-керамика", при която характерни форми са голямата урна с роговидни израстъци и чашата с висока дръжка. Керамиката е украсена с канелюри и щампован или набоден орнамент. Някои керамични форми имат пряка аналогия в пласта VII В2 на селищната могила Троя, което показва, че в края на бронзовата и началото на желязната епоха двете археологически култури се развиват едновременно. Култура Пшеничево е идентифицирана през 1972г. от ст.н.с. II ст. Мария Чичикова.

http://www.bgjourney.com/Architecture/gloss/P.html

"Psenicevo" - archaeological culture spread during the early Iron Age in Thrace; a direct continuation of the cultural complex Plovdiv - Zimniche. It gets its name from the settlement near the village of Pshenichevo, Starozagorsk region. It is characterized by the so-called "buquel-ceramic", in which the characteristic forms are the large urn with horn-shaped outgrowths and the cup with a tall handle. The pottery is decorated with grooves and stamped or pierced ornament. Some ceramic forms have a direct analogy in layer VII B2 on the settlement mound of Troy, which shows that at the end of the Bronze Age and the beginning of the Iron Age, the two archaeological cultures developed simultaneously.The Pshenichevo culture was identified in 1972 by Maria Chichikova, Ph.D.

For clarification in English grooves means channeled. Also, if you encounter wheat it's from google translate, Psenicevo in Bulgarian derived from pcenka means wheat (it's just a Bulgarian village name after which the culture is named, it has nothing to do with the context of the culture itself).

Culture Pshenichevo.
Age of Bronze.
Dating: 11th-9th centuries. BC.
Refers to the first period of Hallstatt.
The culture is identified by a number of sites of the South Thracian type in South-Eastern Bulgaria near the village. Psenicevo.
Ceramics from Pshenichevo and similar settlements, in addition to kitchen pots, contains tableware made of well-washed clay with smoothed or polished surfaces, ornamented with various stamps, carvings and flutes. In pottery decorated with stamps and carvings, there is a connection with the local ceramics of the Middle and Late Bronze Age. At the same time, the ornamental motifs and methods of their execution have much in common with the ornamentation of pottery from the Badabag group and Insula Banului.
There are bands of circles connected by tangents (an ornament especially typical of the Babadag middle layer ceramics) and patterns made with a die in the form of the letter S, which are typical for ornamentation of ceramics from Insula Banului. Along with them, there are other types of patterns.
In addition to the settlements, researchers include several burials in dolmens and rock tombs geographically close to settlements in southern Bulgaria to the local Thracian culture of the Pshenichevo type.
Near the village of Manole, not far from Plovdiv, a cremation was accidentally discovered in an urn, a vessel of the protovillanov type, which, according to its morphological data, approaches the urns characteristic of the A2 period of Central Europe, including the early period of the Gava-Goligrad culture. Here, already in the era of the early Hallstatt, as in later times, there was biritualism in barrowless and kurgan cemeteries.

https://sites.google.com/site/civilizacium/home/arheologia/psenicevskaa-kultura

 

[Southpaw]

According to Milos Jevtic Psenicevo, Bassarabi, Insula Banului, Saharna Solonceni and all related cultures (who should be rich on E-V13) origin should be sought in lower Danube valley, from Iron Ages to Danube Delta.

It's either this, or the newly introduced black-burnished ware, channeled-ware Gava/Belegis-Gava II.