The Neolithic Transition in the Baltic Was Not Driven by Admixture with Early Europea

Angela said:
Well, I thought I'd see what some other people are saying.

This is a very interesting analysis from anthrogenica, and from a poster who seems very knowledgeable and capable, Gravetto-Danubian. I hope he doesn't mind my reposting it.

"Corded_Ware_Estonia:RISE00
Hungary_HG:I1507 31 %
Samara_HG:I0124 21.4 %
Kotias:KK1 18.85 %
Hungary_N:I1498 18.75 %
Iran_Hotu:I1293 9.95 %
Villabruna:I9030 0.05 %


Latvia_LN1:ZVEJ28
Kotias:KK1 42.5 %
Motala_HG:I0012 34.1 %
Samara_HG:I0124 23.4 %
Villabruna:I9030 0 %
Loschbour:Loschbour 0 %

Corded_Ware_Germany:I0049
Kotias:KK1 32.25 %
EHG:I0124 25.9 %
Motala_HG:I0012 17.7 %
Hungary_HG:I1507 11.95 %
Mentese_Neolithic:I0723 11.9 %

Corded_Ware_Germany:I0103
Kotias:KK1 32.45 %
EHG: 23.25
Hungary_HG:I1507 15.1 %
Barcin_Neolithic:I1097 13.7
Loschbour:Loschbour 5 %


Bell_Beaker_Czech:RISE566
Hungary_HG:I1507 32.95 %
Kotias:KK1 31.55 %
Hungary_N:I1498 27.2 %
Karelia_HG:I0061 7.85 %


Bell_Beaker_Czech:RISE569
Mentese_Neolithic:I0723 31.5 %
Hungary_HG:I1507 21.9 %
Karelia_HG:I0061 18.4 %
Kotias:KK1 17.05 %
Samara_HG:I0124 5.85 %
Hungary_N:I1498 4.25 %

Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0060
Loschbour:Loschbour 32.7 %
Kotias:KK1 29.95 %
Barcin_Neolithic: 21.60
Karelia_HG: 10.9
Hungary_N:I1498 5.35 %


Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0108
Hungary_N:I1498 40.75 %
Hungary_HG:I1507 24.45 %
Kotias:KK1 21.7 %
Bichon:Bichon 6.75 %
Karelia_HG:I0061 6.3 %


Vatya:RISE479
Loschbour:Loschbour 41.55 %
Hungary_N:I1498 33.65 %
Kotias:KK1 14.25 %
Karelia_HG:I0061 5.3 %
Barcin_Neolithic:I1097 3.95 %

Hungary_BA:I1502
Mentese_Neolithic:I0723 37.85 %
Hungary_HG:I1507 24.25 %
Motala_HG:I0012 19.5 %
Kotias:KK1 14.45 %BattleAxe_Sweden:RISE94
Motala_HG:I0012 44.7 %
Kotias:KK1 32.9 %
Barcin_Neolithic:I1097 20.65 %
Ukraine_HG1:StPet2 1.15 %


Nordic_MN_B:RISE61
Samara_HG:I0124 33.65 %
Mentese_Neolithic:I0723 31.5 %
Kotias:KK1 15.5 %
Hungary_HG:I1507 12.45 %
Motala_HG:I0012 3.9 %
Latvia_MN2:ZVEJ31 2.15 %

I will check later with weighted data and see how it differs - (results might be more optimal).

But it looks the main source of population movement in the Late Copper - early Bronze Age was something Kotias-like ("CHG") - which mixed into middle Neolithic central European populations with high WHG (i'd look to yet unsampled cultures from the northern Balkans, Ukraine and Poland - eg GAC) as far as BB Czech & Hungary BA go.

Motala admixture also comes into play in some recipients. Whilst some would query this, it makes sense given the presence of haplogroup I in Nordic LNBA and Hungary BA. Shall see when we get Balkan Meso-Neolithics.

EHG is most pertinent for CWC, in conjunction with CHG , but EHG is also evident in some of the BBs and NordicLNBA. Otherwise it isn't as expansive

Surprisingly, the Ukrainian individuals don;t really feature as sources. It could be quality issues, but maybe they were not R1's ?"
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One more thing. The hodgepodge of the variety of ancestry for people even from the same place, makes everybody so unique, like they all migrated from very different places. 31.5% Mentese_Neolithic? I'm sure it is through EEF, otherwise there needed to be big a group of farmers migrating from Anatolia to Nordic Neolithic. Another big group of Barcin_Neolithic migrating to Battle Axe Sweden? They managed to reincarnate Bichon and Villabruna in Bronze Age, but no signs of Natufian. Oh, Iranian Hunter Gatherer showed up on Estonia only. They should clean up their algorithms. Otherwise their admixtures are doing more confusing job than amateurish runs. They are not well defined and grossly overlapping.
Same confusion like describing hunter gatherer cultures as being Neolithic.

PS. I'm yet to start reading this paper, but the first impression is terrible.
 
Angela said:
Surprisingly, the Ukrainian individuals don't really feature as sources.
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Maybe the Ukrainian individuals were not even used in that run?
 
LeBrok said:
One more thing. The hodgepodge of the variety of ancestry for people even from the same place, makes everybody so unique, like they all migrated from very different places. 31.5% Mentese_Neolithic? I'm sure it is through EEF, otherwise there needed to be big a group of farmers migrating from Anatolia to Nordic Neolithic. Another big group of Barcin_Neolithic migrating to Battle Axe Sweden? They managed to reincarnate Bichon and Villabruna in Bronze Age, but no signs of Natufian. Oh, Iranian Hunter Gatherer showed up on Estonia only. They should clean up their algorithms. Otherwise their admixtures are doing more confusing job than amateurish runs. They are not well defined and grossly overlapping.
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LeBrok: I don't see how pure Kotias like h-g could have survived till Mid Neolithic in trans caucasia, surrounded by farmers, and wandered North to Latvia to mix with WHG?
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I'm almost positive it didn't. If nothing else, there is Samara HG in that Latvian sample. It's just that it's outnumbered by "CHG like" material.

The purpose of having both Anatolian Neolithic and CHG reference populations in the same run is so that they can "break down" the "southern" component. Otherwise, it would be very difficult to distinguish ancestry picked up from across the Caucasus from ancestry picked up from MN Central European communities. It's not meant to be taken literally from what I can tell.

Marko: Part of it because amateurs like to imagine all kinds of licentious scenarios involving mass rape & extreme polygamy (I recently encountered one such amateur speculating about ancient 'breeding dynasties' :unsure:)
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There's a lot of very disturbed minds among the amateurs in this field, imo. Or, if I want to be more charitable, a lot of cases of arrested development in early male adolescence. :) I suppose if you're at an impressionable age watching the Conan the Barbarian movies and others of that ilk too many times can be detrimental to your mental health. To be fair, I guess watching too many Hallmark romance movies wouldn't be very good for young women, either. :)
 
Tomenable said:
Maybe the Ukrainian individuals were not even used in that run?
Click to expand...
BattleAxe_Sweden:RISE94
Motala_HG:I0012 44.7 %
Kotias:KK1 32.9 %
Barcin_Neolithic:I1097 20.65 %
Ukraine_HG1:StPet2 1.15 %
 
There's a lot of very disturbed minds among the amateurs in this field, imo. Or, if I want to be more charitable, a lot of cases of arrested development in early male adolescence. :) I suppose if you're at an impressionable age watching the Conan the Barbarian movies and others of that ilk too many times can be detrimental to your mental health. To be fair, I guess watching too many Hallmark romance movies wouldn't be very good for young women, either. :)[/QUOTE]

Do you understand that your statement means nothing because Cimmerians and Scythians were Barbarians, in the greco-roman way. Plus, this is a very impartial message.
 
halfalp said:
There's a lot of very disturbed minds among the amateurs in this field, imo. Or, if I want to be more charitable, a lot of cases of arrested development in early male adolescence. :) I suppose if you're at an impressionable age watching the Conan the Barbarian movies and others of that ilk too many times can be detrimental to your mental health. To be fair, I guess watching too many Hallmark romance movies wouldn't be very good for young women, either. :)
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Do you understand that your statement means nothing because Cimmerians and Scythians were Barbarians, in the greco-roman way. Plus, this is a very impartial message.[/QUOTE]

Has anyone ever told you that you think too literally????

Plus, I think the word you're looking for is biased, and no it's not. It's a reflection of the ludicrous scenarios which some very emotionally stunted young men dream up to explain things which have much more mundane origins.
 
WHG of Latvia had very feminine men.
Latvia_HG3: Burial 121. Adult. Described as female based on morphology but genetically determined to bemale.
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But when more EHG/CHG people came, they had more macho women:
Latvia_MN2: Burial 221. Adult. Fragmentary skeletal material. Described as male based on morphology butgenetically determined to be female.
Latvia_LN1: Burial 137. Adult. Fragmentary bone material. Described as male based on morphology butgenetically determined to be female.
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bicicleur said:
aren't you generalizing a bit too much from just 1 skeleton?
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Probably. The skeletons may be incomplete or deteriorated. That would make it difficult to tell. Even in modern situations it's not always all that easy. Mistakes have been made in law enforcement situations, costly ones.
 
I'm sorry do you put modern ideology in ancient times ? There is no need to rape, for explain that women are the key of propagation no ? Like, i'm pretty sure that in north america, women of a racial type, going more easely with man of another type, that the contrary. A lot of cultures, by paleolithic into iron age show us the mobility of women. Whats all the fuzz about that ?
 
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Tomenable said:
So far there is no any Pre-Bronze Age R1b in the Middle East.

We have a lot of Neolithic samples, but no R1b among them.

The only R1b samples from the Middle East known so far are:

I1635 - Kura Araxes culture, Armenia, 2619-2465 BC
RISE417 - Middle Bronze Age Armenia, 1906-1698 BC
RISE397 - Late Bronze Age Armenia, 1048-855 BC
F38 - Iron Age Teppe Hasanlu, Iran, 971-832 BC

You should start getting used to East European origin of R1b.

=====================================

Stage IV of Indo-European expansions (I added the main haplogroups for each culture):

It is also possible, that Vucedol was just R1b-P312, and R1b-U106 was in Corded Ware:

RISE_98.png


dAHaBAv.png


Here is my map showing the earlier stages of IE expansions (including Proto-Anatolians):

giphy.gif


Vucedol was the main source of R1b-P312 - ancestral to R1b found in Bell Beakers:

m4DaHZc.jpg
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Rokus on the various variants of R1b:

https://rokus01.wordpress.com/2010/09/14/the-neolithic-advance/
 
halfalp said:
I'm sorry do you put modern ideology in ancient times ? There is no need to rape, for explain that women are the key of propagation no ? Like, i'm pretty sure that in north america, women of a racial type, going more easely with man of another type, that the contrary. A lot of cultures, by paleolithic into iron age show us the mobility of women. Whats all the fuzz about that ?
Click to expand...

You didn't write the deleted post, so my comment about it wasn't addressed to you. You don't know what the original post was about, so why are you responding?

As for the other matter, as Marko alluded to there have been amateurs in this field who have expressed great relish at the idea that certain yDna clades expanded massively because these men had hordes of women in harems, and equal relish at first having lopped off the heads of all the men. More prosaic and supported explanations like climate change and disease reducing the population of locals, or movement into never populated areas, in addition to bride exchange or barter in other areas, as well as some degree of polygamy and some degree of removal of local men from the mating pool just won't do.

Is it clear now?

As for the bolded sentence I don't really know what you mean. Do you mean that Native American women were overcome with lust seeing "white" men, but white women weren't attracted to Native American men?

These kinds of decisions are about power, and for women also often about survival. If you're a Native American woman, your own men are killed, or dying of disease, and you're hungry, and your children are hungry, and some white guy shows up with at least a promise of food and some safety, yes, a lot of women would go with him. His looks or sex appeal would be irrelevant, as would your own natural sexual adventurousness or lack of same. Haven't you seen beautiful young women with fat and ugly old men, old men who happen to have a lot of money? Not for me, but I don't have a strong stomach.

Why would a white woman in those days choose to exile herself to the perils of life at the bottom of society to follow her sexual inclinations? It happened I'm sure, but not very often. Women stolen when young and even not so young from North American settlements and incorporated into Native American life are another story. Many of them didn't choose to return even when it became possible.
 
Angela said:
You didn't write the deleted post, so my comment about it wasn't addressed to you. You don't know what the original post was about, so why are you responding?

As for the other matter, as Marko alluded to there have been amateurs in this field who have expressed great relish at the idea that certain yDna clades expanded massively because these men had hordes of women in harems, and equal relish at first having lopped off the heads of all the men. More prosaic and supported explanations like climate change and disease reducing the population of locals, or movement into never populated areas, in addition to bride exchange or barter in other areas, as well as some degree of polygamy and some degree of removal of local men from the mating pool just won't do.

Is it clear now?

As for the bolded sentence I don't really know what you mean. Do you mean that Native American women were overcome with lust seeing "white" men, but white women weren't attracted to Native American men?

These kinds of decisions are about power, and for women also often about survival. If you're a Native American woman, your own men are killed, or dying of disease, and you're hungry, and your children are hungry, and some white guy shows up with at least a promise of food and some safety, yes, a lot of women would go with him. His looks or sex appeal would be irrelevant, as would your own natural sexual adventurousness or lack of same. Haven't you seen beautiful young women with fat and ugly old men, old men who happen to have a lot of money? Not for me, but I don't have a strong stomach.

Why would a white woman in those days choose to exile herself to the perils of life at the bottom of society to follow her sexual inclinations? It happened I'm sure, but not very often. Women stolen when young and even not so young from North American settlements and incorporated into Native American life are another story. Many of them didn't choose to return even when it became possible.
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Yes i didnt saw the post, in fact i was responding, to the mental defficiency attack. No i mean that both more easily goes in another ethnic population, than mens do apart for exemples of solitary conquistadors. Huns and Mongols both were rapers and esclavagists to there times. The difference between later turco-mongols tribe and proto-indo-europeans, its that horses were not used like that, so the pattern doesn't really fit, but it doesnt mean also if the pattern doesnt fit, that the complete opposite, so an harmonius and multiracial, heavenly population was the case.
 
LeBrok said:
But when more EHG/CHG people came, they had more macho women:

"Latvia_MN2: Burial 221. Adult. Fragmentary skeletal material. Described as male based on morphology but genetically determined to be female.
Latvia_LN1: Burial 137. Adult. Fragmentary bone material. Described as male based on morphology but genetically determined to be female."
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Maybe they were "robust" like Cherchen Woman (reconstruction below)?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherchen_Man

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/11/days-of-high-adventure.html

JB7IDwb.png
 
Angela said:
Exactly so, which is why it can be misleading to use calculators based on modern populations. One also has to use formal stats in addition to ADMIXTURE.

Aren't some of the newest Middle Bronze Age steppe samples close to 60% CHG? It seems that the flow was a continuing one.
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Yep atually CHG admixture was on the rise from early to middle Bronze Age. 24% CHG estimates are absolutely ridiculous in many ways.
 
MarkoZ said:
If you look at the K=20 run in the supp. material, the differences seem to be that the European HG components are quite different and the Latvian CW lacks the small non-West-Eurasian components that Yamnaya has.

It'll be interesting to see what the Finnish CW turn out to be, as they appear to be even older than the Latvian CW.
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Correct, most of their ancestry seem to be independently brought to them. Even their CHG ancestry which is quite amazing considering how far Latvia is from the Caucasus. So a CHG like pop seem to have brought this admixture independently to CW. This population could have come from anywhere between the Caucasus-Iranian Plateau, South_Central Asia and Ukraine.
 
Angela said:
How could that have happened, though, Bicicleur? I don't know of any archaeological trail, do you?

Isn't it possible it was a movement of one particular group in Yamnaya that broke off and headed north?
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There is actually archeoligcal connection between North_Iran, Leyla Tepe culture in Southeast Caucasus, the Samara culture and Yamnaya culture. Actually the oldest Kurgans are from the Leyla Tepe culture while almost simultaneously appearing in the Samara culture too (Maybe few hundred years later).
 
And my own mtDNA is the best evidence that the flow of CHG could be mediated through women.

I have W6, which originated in Caucasus, but entered the Steppe and became part of Yamnaya.

There are two Yamnaya samples with W6, yet there is no any W6 among WHG, EHG or SHG. There is no doubt that W6 is not indigenous to Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic Europe (as long as we don't count Caucasus is Europe):

W6c: Lopatino I, ~3090-2910 BC, Yamnaya culture Russia

W6a: Lopatino II, ~3500-2700 BC, Yamnaya culture Russia

W6a: Esperstedt, ~2566-2477 BC, Corded Ware culture Germany
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About W6 and W6a (my W6 is confirmed, and all of my matches are W6a, so most likely I'm W6a):

W6 appeared in the area between the Black and Caspian Seas, perhpas in what is now Georgia, 10,000 years ago.

W6c probably originated in the Georgian W6 homeland. The ancestral W6c1 without the 16192 'flip' is found in Georgia.

W6a, with the 8610 coding region mutation, which emerged in the Russian steppes.
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There are 4 known ancient samples of W6, including 3 from Indo-European cultures (listed above).

There is also one W6 (but no specific info about its subclade) from a Non-Indo-European context:

W6: Va7, ~5500-4500 BC, Vinča culture Romania
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