Immigration The Lives of German Turks

[bicicleur 2]

I'm sorry, Bicicleur, but this is not the thread for an explanation of the whole history and culture of the Roman world. Nor could I do it justice in posts on a forum anyways. There are excellent books on the subject, many of which I've mentioned.
Just briefly, you may not understand how it worked, but work it did. Within a generation the people of most conquered areas were fighting to be considered "true" Romans. I wrote a whole thread about it. There are conquerors and conquerors. How much did the Germans hate the Americans who bombed Dresden? Maybe some, for a generation. And then? What about the Japanese, even after something like Hiroshima? Yet, to this day, how do the Poles feel about being taken over by the Russians? War is war, and especially in that day and age they accepted the consequences of it. After the first generation it's all about how the conquered are treated, and the inclusivity of the system.
As for the similarity between refugee Germanic tribesmen and refugee Middle easterners or Africans trying to enter more prosperous places, the only difference I can see is that you sympathize with the former and you don't like the latter.

where did I show my sympathy for the Germanic tribesmen?

and similarities, I see very little

also your formulation is wrong
the Africans are not refugees, and among the Middle easterners there are some

 

[Angela]

This is what you said about the situation in the Classical Age. I took it as a criticism of Rome's policy. If you think they were correct not to let the Germanic tribes through the walls, then you're being consistent.

"And the outer doors to the Empire remained firmly closed. Migrating into the Empire and apply for citizenship was not an option, unless you had something very special to offer."

As to the "refugee" issue, I wasn't speaking only of refugees from war, but those fleeing famine as well, or at least desperate economic situations. Some of the German tribesmen were both, some just starving.

So, I think the situations are roughly analogous.

Plus, the thread is, after all, about the treatment of people of Turkish or even part Turkish descent in Germany. Those Turks were INVITED in. That makes it even worse.

The same thing happened in the U.S. Agents literally went to towns in Ireland, and Italy, and other places and recruited them for American factories and for the mines and the unfarmed land. The U.S. didn't turn around two generations later and decide they wanted to send them back. They absorbed them, Americanized them.

 

[Ailchu]

As for the similarity between refugee Germanic tribesmen and refugee Middle easterners or Africans trying to enter more prosperous places, the only difference I can see is that you sympathize with the former and you don't like the latter.

except that one group was made out of armed killers, while the other one is made out of normal unarmed people.

 

[bicicleur 2]

This is what you said about the situation in the Classical Age. I took it as a criticism of Rome's policy. If you think they were correct not to let the Germanic tribes through the walls, then you're being consistent.

"And the outer doors to the Empire remained firmly closed. Migrating into the Empire and apply for citizenship was not an option, unless you had something very special to offer."

As to the "refugee" issue, I wasn't speaking only of refugees from war, but those fleeing famine as well, or at least desperate economic situations. Some of the German tribesmen were both, some just starving.

So, I think the situations are roughly analogous.

Plus, the thread is, after all, about the treatment of people of Turkish or even part Turkish descent in Germany. Those Turks were INVITED in. That makes it even worse.

The same thing happened in the U.S. Agents literally went to towns in Ireland, and Italy, and other places and recruited them for American factories and for the mines and the unfarmed land. The U.S. didn't turn around two generations later and decide they wanted to send them back. They absorbed them, Americanized them.

yes, they didn't let them through, and that is quite normal
I didn't say they should have done otherwise

and yes, we are far away from the original topic
I don't think we can compare it with situations in societies 2000 years ago

most of the refugees are smuggled into Europe by human traffickers, and they paid large sums of money for that
they don't face violence or famine at home, they are being told fairy tales by the trafickers which they believe
the problem is they end up in illegality and even when they are picked up by the police, for most of them it is not possible to get them back to their country again
to their family at home who paid for them they don't want to admit they failed, they say they do very well and so the myth persists
I don't know with what situation in the Roman Empire you could compare this

what I had to say about the article in the paper, it is in post 22

about the Turks, I don't know whether it is the same as in Belgium
most of them have double nationality, which should never have been allowed
they are voting for Turkish elections, and Erdogan is making propaganda in Belgium for himself
most of the Turks are well integrated, but some are waving the Turkish flag when Erdogan invades Syria
and they tend to clash with Kurdish nationalists living in Belgium

the problem is the Belgian state is to leniant in such matters

 

[Anfänger]

My own personal experience as a child of Iranian migrants born in Germany, is that you will never fully fit into German society if you doesn't look "German". Even my Italian and Greek friends think the same way. I think living in the US would be much easier because what I experienced on my vacations there, is that there the "division" is between "White" and "Black".

 

[Ailchu]

I think living in the US would be much easier because what I experienced on my vacations there, is that there the "division" is between "White" and "Black".

so is the situation really better there from an objective point of view? for you it might be easier to be part of the american group but there would still be a division between "white" and "black" american right? is this division any better?

 

[Farstar]

There are many Germans that are indistinguishable from Italians or Greeks. Germans are not overwhelmingly blond at all. Many Germans are dark haired. Maybe there could be a slight difference in tone of skin, but this is negligible.

If a Southern European speaks perfect German, and he has learned the German way of life and accepts it (and enjoys it!), there is no way Germans will discriminate against him.

In my opinion, "feeling discriminated in Germany" is overwhelmingly an indication of a self-failure to integrate in Germany.

 

[Anfänger]

There are many Germans that are indistinguishable from Italians or Greeks. Germans are not overwhelmingly blond at all. Many Germans are dark haired. Maybe there could be a slight difference in tone of skin, but this is negligible.

If a Southern European speaks perfect German, and he has learned the German way of life and accepts it (and enjoys it!), there is no way Germans will discriminate against him.

In my opinion, "feeling discriminated in Germany" is overwhelmingly an indication of a self-failure to integrate in Germany.

There are many studies that prove discrimination in Germany is real and not just a "feeling" of uneducated unwilling migrants. Most Italians in Germany are from south Italy and Sicily and you can clearly distinguish them from an average German.But it is true that discrimination against people from the Near East is much higher than against others.Most dark haired and dark eyed people in Germany fall directly into the category of "Türke (Turk)". Sure there are cosmopolitan areas like Frankfurt,Cologne or parts of Rhein/Ruhr Area where most of the people with foreign ancestry live but even there it is much harder to get a job with a foreign name than a person with a german name with the same qualifications. East Germany is a hotspot for xenophobia, right wing/far right AfD got more than 20% in every eastern German state.

About the open-minded Germans, yes there are many and i like their attitudes but in Western Europe Germany is not even close to be the most tolerant nation, just look at this study from the Pew Research Center:

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...igrant-and-anti-religious-minority-attitudes/

 

[Angela]

so is the situation really better there from an objective point of view? for you it might be easier to be part of the american group but there would still be a division between "white" and "black" american right? is this division any better?

Yes, it's a lot better, and for fifty years or more.

No one is allowed to refuse entry to someone to a club because they're black or mixed race, or refuse to rent them an apartment, or call them names in the street, or refuse to hire them because of race, or make fun of their ancestry.

I guess you weren't around for the world cup game between Germany and Italy, held in Germany, when the media and people on the street were saying all Italians are good for is pizza and pasta.

You just don't want to acknowledge the fundamental difference between some countries in Europe in the U.S. Here, a man making sexual remarks about a girl because she's from a different race would practically get lynched. Even much more minor events provoke a response. It wouldn't happen in a lot of countries even today.

Like a lot of very young people, I'm afraid you also lack a historical perspective, both for your own country and the rest of the world.

 

[Anfänger]

so is the situation really better there from an objective point of view? for you it might be easier to be part of the american group but there would still be a division between "white" and "black" american right? is this division any better?

Sure this division isn't any better, i was talking about my own second generation immigrant perspective.
Yes, racism exits in the US but it is less than in Germany.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I think this whole discussion is very subjective and everybody believes what he/she wants to.
The behaviour of a crowd in a football stadion certainly is not representative.
It only proves there is racism, but not to what extent, because these people are not representative for the whole nation.
You will find these people in every country.

 

[Farstar]

There are many studies that prove discrimination in Germany is real and not just a "feeling" of uneducated unwilling migrants. Most Italians in Germany are from south Italy and Sicily and you can clearly distinguish them from an average German.But it is true that discrimination against people from the Near East is much higher than against others.Most dark haired and dark eyed people in Germany fall directly into the category of "Türke (Turk)". Sure there are cosmopolitan areas like Frankfurt,Cologne or parts of Rhein/Ruhr Area where most of the people with foreign ancestry live but even there it is much harder to get a job with a foreign name than a person with a german name with the same qualifications. East Germany is a hotspot for xenophobia, right wing/far right AfD got more than 20% in every eastern German state.

About the open-minded Germans, yes there are many and i like their attitudes but in Western Europe Germany is not even close to be the most tolerant nation, just look at this study from the Pew Research Center:

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...igrant-and-anti-religious-minority-attitudes/

The main point is: what is discrimination?

If you define as discrimination "the probability that a person with a Middle Eastern name will have the same job as a person with a German name", probably you are right.

But this is not the right question. The reason is that, in probability terms, a Middle Eastern person will have a different behaviour as a natural-German person. And for a job, the soft skills of "being German" (speaking a perfect German, understanding the subtleties of non-verbal language for a German person ...) matter. So, it is perfectly reasonable that with the same amount of "hard skills", a German employer will prefer a natural-German than a Middle Easterner ... IF THE MIDDLE EASTERNER IS SEEN NOT TO BE PERFECT IN ADAPTATION TO GERMAN CULTURE.

If the Middle Easterner has completely adapted to German culture, I highly doubt that he is at a disadvantage. Maybe there are some racists in proportion in the population, but also there are some left wingers who probably prefer a non-German (to give disadvantaged people an opportunity, etc.).

As said above, very often people who complain about discrimination in Germany, when I see them, it is people who clearly have not adapted to German culture, and they very clearly do not want to adapt to German culture. They would like the Germans to transform instead. Not hiring such people is not discrimination, it is common sense.

 

[Angela]

I think this whole discussion is very subjective and everybody believes what he/she wants to.
The behaviour of a crowd in a football stadion certainly is not representative.
It only proves there is racism, but not to what extent, because these people are not representative for the whole nation.
You will find these people in every country.

Indeed, but the question is what is the percentage, what is the frequency of racist behavior. NEVER, absolutely NEVER would a crowd at a U.S. sports event chant racist comments. It happens in Europe all the time. IT NEVER HAPPENS IN THE U.S.

That's not anecdote. That's verifiable FACT.

If some jackass ever did it he'd be stomped on or at least yelled at and ejected immediately.

Americans don't act that way.

@Farstar,
Stop with the freaking "perfect" German or any other crap. You think as a forty year old person someone can learn to speak PERFECT GERMAN right away??? How about a sixty year old grandfather? It took my mother years to learn to speak English. My father was working so he learned it faster, but they both spoke with heavy Italian accents and not entirely perfect grammar until the day they died. NEVER, ever, did anyone call them out on it, or not hire my father. Within five years of his arrival, when his English was still very imperfect, his ability with reading blueprints, estimating construction jobs, and organizing large projects had landed him contracts for the entire mideast for two large big box companies. When he first rented an apartment, he had to bring a relative to do the translating.

And what the hell does "perfect" in adaptation to German culture mean? No native language schools like the Greeks have here for their children, no wearing of a headscarf so long as it doesn't interfere with the job, you can't have your own native food stores and serve native food at home or bring a frittata sandwich to work? Here, everybody would be asking for a piece and the recipe.

Clearly, if someone refuses to abide by "western" values in terms of women, education etc. then they shouldn't be there. That's not what I'm talking about.

All of that aside, there is NO EXCUSE, ZIP, NADA, for the way immigrants are treated in some European countries. It's inhumane and people who see it and do nothing to stop it should be ashamed.

Forget it, this stuff is so ingrained in some of you people that you can't even see yourselves objectively. I'm out.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Indeed, but the question is what is the percentage, what is the frequency of racist behavior. NEVER, absolutely NEVER would a crowd at a U.S. sports event chant racist comments. It happens in Europe all the time. IT NEVER HAPPENS IN THE U.S.

That's not anecdote. That's verifiable FACT.

If some jackass ever did it he'd be stomped on or at least yelled at and ejected immediately.

well, you won't like this, but the last year it was Italy that most frequently hit the news for racism in football

they have set up several campaigns to counter this, but not succesfull uptill now

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/16/football/serie-a-racism-artwork-spt-intl/index.html

https://theconversation.com/racism-...flects-the-everyday-migrant-experience-126054

so, I don't understand why you pick Germany

 

[Ailchu]

You just don't want to acknowledge the fundamental difference between some countries in Europe in the U.S. Here, a man making sexual remarks about a girl because she's from a different race would practically get lynched. Even much more minor events provoke a response. It wouldn't happen in a lot of countries even today.

I'm afraid you also lack a historical perspective, both for your own country and the rest of the world.

i'm just glad that you finally consider this as a european problem and not just a german one. that was my primary goal in this discussion.

 

[Angela]

well, you won't like this, but the last year it was Italy that most frequently hit the news for racism in football

they have set up several campaigns to counter this, but not succesfull uptill now

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/16/football/serie-a-racism-artwork-spt-intl/index.html

https://theconversation.com/racism-...flects-the-everyday-migrant-experience-126054

so, I don't understand why you pick Germany

I'm not like you people. When my country does something disgraceful, I admit it, and have admitted it.

Right is right and wrong is wrong, period. As when a defendant goes in front of a judge, the law should be the law; morality should be morality; everyone gets judged by the same rubric. Do you really think I'd go easier on an Italian American criminal than an Irish or Mexican or Cuban one? You don't know me and how I've conducted myself.

The behavior of certain clubs is a disgrace. If I lived there I'd do everything I could to change it, make it illegal, whatever had to be done.

To deny that hatred of the "other" is worse in Germany and Eastern Europe than it is in western Europe, however, is delusionary.

It's always been that way, and I see no signs that it's changing.

 

[Ailchu]

I'm not like you people. When my country does something disgraceful, I admit it, and have admitted it.

that is not the problem. i'll never say that there is no discrimination and racism in germany or that switzerland is open and free from xenophobia. that would be far from reality. but why look at these people without looking at the context? the discussion was about turkish/germans not beeing accepted as germans by other germans. that is indeed the case for many germans. but to understand why this is the case i think an important first step is to make clear that this is not a problem that is specific for germany. especiall considering the past of germany and the picture many people still have of germany it is very easy to point at them but that is just unfair and dishonest.

To deny that hatred of the "other" is worse in Germany and Eastern Europe than it is in western Europe, however, is delusionary.

It's always been that way, and I see no signs that it's changing.

did we talk about germany or eastern europe? eastern and south eastern europe are a different story.

in case of germany it doesn't seem like they are much worse than the rest of western europe. the west german part, not sure about the east anymore. overall in the link given by Anfänger the numbers are all quite close to each other. of course maybe it's because certain people in certain countries do not want to say what they really think in such polls.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...igrant-and-anti-religious-minority-attitudes/

here an other statistic for the topic of the thread, who belongs to the group and who doesn't. switzerland is more on the right side compared to the others, but germany? not really.

btw look at sweden. maybe Jantes laws really have an effect?

 

[bicicleur 2]

I'm not like you people. When my country does something disgraceful, I admit it, and have admitted it.
Right is right and wrong is wrong, period. As when a defendant goes in front of a judge, the law should be the law; morality should be morality; everyone gets judged by the same rubric. Do you really think I'd go easier on an Italian American criminal than an Irish or Mexican or Cuban one? You don't know me and how I've conducted myself.
The behavior of certain clubs is a disgrace. If I lived there I'd do everything I could to change it, make it illegal, whatever had to be done.
To deny that hatred of the "other" is worse in Germany and Eastern Europe than it is in western Europe, however, is delusionary.
It's always been that way, and I see no signs that it's changing.

case closed
end of discussion

except .. do you realy believe German judges have different standards for native Germans and for immigrants? The law isn't the law there?
that is what you seem to imply - you would be an impartial judge, but what to think of the Germans?
I hope I get this wrong.

 

[Farstar]

@Farstar,
Stop with the freaking "perfect" German or any other crap. You think as a forty year old person someone can learn to speak PERFECT GERMAN right away??? How about a sixty year old grandfather? It took my mother years to learn to speak English. My father was working so he learned it faster, but they both spoke with heavy Italian accents and not entirely perfect grammar until the day they died. NEVER, ever, did anyone call them out on it, or not hire my father. Within five years of his arrival, when his English was still very imperfect, his ability with reading blueprints, estimating construction jobs, and organizing large projects had landed him contracts for the entire mideast for two large big box companies. When he first rented an apartment, he had to bring a relative to do the translating.

And what the hell does "perfect" in adaptation to German culture mean? No native language schools like the Greeks have here for their children, no wearing of a headscarf so long as it doesn't interfere with the job, you can't have your own native food stores and serve native food at home or bring a frittata sandwich to work? Here, everybody would be asking for a piece and the recipe.

Clearly, if someone refuses to abide by "western" values in terms of women, education etc. then they shouldn't be there. That's not what I'm talking about.

All of that aside, there is NO EXCUSE, ZIP, NADA, for the way immigrants are treated in some European countries. It's inhumane and people who see it and do nothing to stop it should be ashamed.

Forget it, this stuff is so ingrained in some of you people that you can't even see yourselves objectively. I'm out.

I am the perfect example of what you describe. I arrived to Germany as an adult, and I could never speak German properly (also, in my job, English was the main language). In the end, I decided to go away from Germany. Also, I clearly look like a Mediterranean, and not like a German. But the reason is not that I felt discriminated in Germany, not at all. It was my inability to reach the standard of quality within Germany that Germans (logically!) require. On the contrary, I think that Germans were open with me, and they helped me a lot.

And even in this case, I had a good job, since I had the required skills.

Around me, I was seeing foreigners (mostly Spaniards) complaining about Germany, while living there. But they were people always partying with other Spaniards, doing things the same way they were doing in Spain, and with no real commitment to learn German, and how Germans do things. And then, they were saying that Germans are closed-minded and even racist. Give me a break.

Also, it is difficult to judge racism in a society. There are for sure sources of racism in Western Europe. But if I had to choose whether being an African-American in America, or a Middle Eastern in Europe, I would clearly prefer to be the latter than the former. On the contrary, America is probably more open to South-East Asians. Everything depends. But I stand to my assessment, and I firmly think the main source of different treatment in Europe in relation to the treatment of Middle Easterners is self-made.

An example: in my city, Moroccans live overwhelmingly in a specific neighborhood. The schools near that neighborhood reach a 90% of pupils of Moroccan origin. Instead, schools in other areas have a much lower percentage of Moroccan children. Local authorities started a program to reduce that, and they offered free buses, etc. to Moroccan parents to bring their children to other schools (which, in addition to that, had a better performance overall). This offer was a massive failure, and almost no Moroccan child moved to other schools. The overwhelming reason is that Moroccan parents wanted their children to have Moroccan friends, not "white" ones. The point is that the probability that those children will not reach a 100% proficiency in the local culture is high. So, if an employer sees this, and realizes that this worker will not be able to work as well as he expects, is he discriminating? Or is he just taking a rational decision for his business? Around me, I see that those Moroccans that HAVE integrated well, they have good jobs, good friends, and they act exactly the same way as locals, with their color of skin or family origin having the slightest effect on them. Instead, apparently those Moroccans that have NOT integrated well, they complain about racism all the time. Curious.

 

[Angela]

Farstar, you've a very good poster, so I hope you didn't find my tone offensive. I get a little sharp about this issue sometimes because I'm an immigrant myself, and have lived in both Europe and the U.S.

I do understand what you're saying in terms of the fact that instead of just speaking with an accent, and keeping some of their culture in their private life there are some immigrants who carry it too far. That was not at all the case with the European immigrants to the U.S. If anything, other than family structure and food, the second generation jettisoned their "ancestors'" culture as soon as they could. It's the third generation which has some nostalgia for it.

That is an emerging problem with Mexican immigration, perhaps fueled by the availability of Spanish language media, the ease of returning "home", etc. That is indeed problematic. America doesn't want to turn into Canada in that respect, with two "nations", each with their own language.

All of that said, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that African Americans are treated infinitely better here than Middle Easterners are treated in Europe, with the exception of a few insane lone wolfs who are dealt with swiftly. No one, but no one would be denied housing because of phenotype or language skills, or refused entrance to certain places, or harassed in the streets, or denied employment so long as they can be understood. The kind of "No Irish Need Apply" phase, or separate facilities for blacks and whites are far in the past.

Most of this is beyond philosophical discussions about immigration. It is absolutely NEVER right to harass other human beings because they don't look like you or sound like you. It's inhumane. There is just no excuse for it, ever, no matter what.

That's all I'll say on the subject.