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The diverse genetic origins of a Classical period Greek army

Angela said:
My personal opinion is that it's also about the fact that Italians put the lie to the story line that achievement, intellectual and otherwise, is correlated with high WHG, Steppe etc. ancestry. It really burns them. That's why for so long the ancient Romans were held to be Nordics who suddenly turned into Italians.
Click to expand...

And according to the "Pantheon Project", even Sardinia gave birth to two globally memorable people, Pope Symmachus and Antonio Gramsci:

https://pantheon.world/profile/country/italy#cities-by-births

Although, according to Wikipedia, Gramsci's father immigrated to Sardinia from mainland Italy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Gramsci
 
Never mind.
 
My husband's results:

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]AJF_scaled[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.04531823[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.04762203[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10952[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.05186836[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10945[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.05667533[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7217[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.05794297[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I7223[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.05901178[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10948[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.06363278[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7219[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.06838625[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I7224[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.07130391[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I7225[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.07171759[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_IA:I13128[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.07199459[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7218[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.07855030[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2:I10946[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.07925628[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_IA:I13382[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.07943664[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_IA:I13384[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.07977739[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_IA:I13379[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.08036500[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_IA:I13389[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.08045912[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_IA:I13380[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.08065951[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_IA:I13391[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.08070412[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_IA:I13376[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.08101950[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2:I10950[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.08170738[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_IA:I13390[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.08432435[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_IA:I13383[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.08711623[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_IA:I13387[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.08789653[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_IA:I13125[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.08815566[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_IA:I13392[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


At least we identified the samples for ease of use. I had to go back to the drawing board here.

Closest sample: Mediterranean soldier. A distance of 4 isn't great, but...
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7221[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]7.44771777[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Icaria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]10.07537096[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Rhodes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]10.25363350[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]10.80370307[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Kos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]11.49475533[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.21577259[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.34324107[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Fournoi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.57346412[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.60043253[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.61424195[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Izmir[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.72395379[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]13.37443083[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Cypriot[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]13.79515495[/TD]
[TD]Moldovan_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]13.79911229[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]13.81295406[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Cyprus[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]14.03075194[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]14.83921831[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]14.86105649[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Cappadocia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]15.10644233[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]15.49396657[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]15.69940763[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Foca[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]15.89698399[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]15.96700661[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Lemnos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]17.55785864[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Athens[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]18.30886670[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Central[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Second closest...
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]10.15407307[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]10.49404117[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]11.08933722[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]11.70276890[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]11.77617935[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]11.79934744[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]11.92649571[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Icaria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.83219779[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.88848323[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]13.05330609[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]13.07890286[/TD]
[TD]Moldovan_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]13.25718914[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]13.64853472[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]13.88367747[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Izmir[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]14.00806910[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Fournoi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]14.30294375[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Foca[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]14.40154158[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Athens[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]14.48750151[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]14.55774364[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Umbria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]14.91708417[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]14.92330727[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Lemnos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]15.10296991[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]15.10314206[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]15.11440373[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Central[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]15.11542590[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Rhodes[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: AJF_scaled
Distance: 0.0273% / 0.02730348
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]60.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]19.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]15.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]ITA_Sicily_IA[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]5.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4[/TD]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]AJF_scaled[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03043160[/TD]
[TD]77.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10952 + 23.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03444676[/TD]
[TD]34.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 66.00% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13128[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03459576[/TD]
[TD]72.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I7223 + 27.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03486488[/TD]
[TD]85.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221 + 14.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4:I10944[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03515676[/TD]
[TD]84.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10952 + 15.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4:I10944[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03633626[/TD]
[TD]85.20% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10952 + 14.80% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4:I10947[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03700532[/TD]
[TD]37.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 62.40% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13390[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03723753[/TD]
[TD]74.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7217 + 26.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03778425[/TD]
[TD]87.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221 + 12.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4:I10947[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03779039[/TD]
[TD]36.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 63.40% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13384[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03792650[/TD]
[TD]37.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 63.00% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13391[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03843227[/TD]
[TD]36.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 63.40% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13379[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03853037[/TD]
[TD]88.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221 + 11.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_3:I10949[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03869169[/TD]
[TD]39.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 60.40% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13125[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03974177[/TD]
[TD]84.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221 + 15.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03981440[/TD]
[TD]73.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10948 + 26.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04025275[/TD]
[TD]90.20% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221 + 9.80% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_3:I10943[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04025600[/TD]
[TD]76.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221 + 23.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2:I10946[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04027198[/TD]
[TD]36.20% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 63.80% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13382[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04038488[/TD]
[TD]36.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 63.40% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13389[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04048885[/TD]
[TD]81.20% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7217 + 18.80% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4:I10944[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04091768[/TD]
[TD]79.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10945 + 21.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04110983[/TD]
[TD]40.20% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 59.80% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13394[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04152201[/TD]
[TD]39.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 60.60% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13392[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04211955[/TD]
[TD]89.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10952 + 11.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_3:I10949[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: AJF_scaled
Distance: 0.0273% / 0.02730348
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]60.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]19.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]15.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]ITA_Sicily_IA[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]5.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4[/TD]


Did you get what you were looking for, or not?
 
Tomenable said:
Never mind.
Click to expand...

Are you a bot or is this some incredibly childish troll attempt, given there's a second identical post on another thread I'm inclined to think it's the latter. Side bar briefly showed how you commented on Iceland having 172 globally memorable people while Sardinia only 2. Why not start a new thread and state some objective parameters for comparison instead of those dubious lists about politicians and soccer players.

This bizarre behaviour proves the comments above must have hit the mark
 
Since I've read on Anthrogenica that someone while speaking evidently of Eupedia referred to a "hysterical madwoman", I do not feel the need to be particularly diplomatic when I'll comment on the particularly idiotic claims I've seen on that site.

The usual suspects giggled that "even on Dodecad Sicilians do not overlap with Mycenaeans and ancient Greek samples", feeling that this vindicated their opinions, but it isn't our fault if they lack understanding: I challenge anybody to prove that Jovialis or others ever claimed that south Italians overlap with Mycenaeans or that they are identical, given that it has been known since years that Mycenaeans plot close to south Italians, specifically below them (though in some PCA format they are on top of south Italians or more eastern compared to them), and the important point is about closeness to ancient Greek/Mycenaean samples,which suggests at least a large degree of continuity, no completely null genetic inputs from other areas, so it is really more telling of their intellectual capacities when they debunk basically their own strawmans than ours. Also, the closeness isn't just a "visual illusion" created by the PCA, since it has been repeated in many and many papers that I needn't linking again that among modern populations the most similar to ancient Mycenaeans and Greeks are modern south Italians and Greeks (especially to the extent they have less slavic admixture).

The most important point is closeness and similarity, which strongly suggest a certain degree of continuity, and this is what is important to keep in mind when commenting the following confident claim by a known anthrogenica user:
I believe a consensus will soon emerge that Sicilians are largely descended of the same people that replaced the Italics in the rest of Italy: post-classical Greeks from the Hellenistic East, that is to say Greek-speaking people packed with a lot of Anatolian and a little Levantine ancestry...
Click to expand...
Let's explicate what such a claim entails, shall we?
In short this just means that no matter what empirical evidence emerges about the previous inhabitants of Italy, he will ALWAYS hold to his belief because he believes that the inhabitants of Italy have been replaced by "post-classical Greeks" from the Hellenistic East, so they bear very little if at all bearing about the genomics of modern Italians (southern especially), so it isn't really a problem that IA inhabitants of Sicily were already shifted towards modern Sicilians compared to Latins and that with the pull of ancient Greeks they start to approximate modern Sicilians even more, for they might have been as well Pigmies or Mongols and still they would have just "poofed" into thin air.
When asked what makes them believe that Italy got repopulated by "post-classical Greeks from the Hellenistic East", it seems to me that either they believe that the mere fact that south Italians aren't exactly identical to ancient Greeks is enough to justify their belief or they keep citing G25 (or both), but the first point is nothing short than a logical fallacy- and I shouldn't expect less from people that show themselves not to be particularly bright- and the second begs the question of the trustworthiness of G25, especially over official papers, furthermore on the first point one can add that whatever the following changes might have been south Italians aren't shifted towards the Levant or ancient Anatolia compared to those ancient Greek samples (rightward on the x axis), and the pull is evidently on another direction (upward in the Y axis), but I realise that they wouldn't even accept this point because it doesn't matter at all wherever ancient Sicilian samples might have plot- since they were replaced.
I realise that in order for, say, post classical Sicilians to plot exactly with ancient Greeks it would require a 100% replacement of IA Sicilians with Greeks, which I do not deem plausible, and I concede that it isn't as for now clear what else happened between the centuries that saw the "shift" of the Italian cline from its IA position to its modern one that overlaps the ancient Balkans, but the weightiest point to keep in mind is that NOTHING AT ALL even remotely supports the claim that ancient Italians were replaced by "east meds" who later got pulled northwards by Germanics, so that modern south Italians have more "east med" and Germanic ancestry than IA Italian (from Latin-like to Sicily_IA -like) ancestry, repeatedly asserted as a doubtless truth.

As for the J2 speculations, J2a clades has been found in Italy since the calcolithic, for heaven's sake: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982221005352

As a last note: when an user on Anthrogenica itself notices that J1 in south Italy is at 5% according to academic papers but at 7-8% according to the personal database of another anthrogenica user, doesn't it ring a warning bell that someone isn't being a honest broker?
 
I'm pretty new to all of this archeogenetics stuff, so I'm not familiar with its deep and tangled lore of "anthrogenica VS history and common sense", but even Davidski (wich if I understood correctly is held in great consideration in the anthrogenica community - but again, my knowledge of the archeogenetics lore is very limited) in one of his post admitted that the italian genepool largely formed in the Iron Age:

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/11/open-analysis-and-discussion-thread.html

As for the paper object of this topic, I think the two interesting points are the following: Iron Age Greeks have indeed held a big role in the ethnogenesis of southern Italy (actually, some of the samples of the Himera citizens do plot with the most "east shifted" southern italians); Sicani were indeed a rather isolated population, still resembling their predecessors from Middle Bronze Age. To have a more complete picture is therefore necessary to wait for samples from others italic tribes, as the Siculi in Sicily or the Oscans in continental Italy.
 
Leopoldo Leone said:
Since I've read on Anthrogenica that someone while speaking evidently of Eupedia referred to a "hysterical madwoman", I do not feel the need to be particularly diplomatic when I'll comment on the particularly idiotic claims I've seen on that site.

The usual suspects giggled that "even on Dodecad Sicilians do not overlap with Mycenaeans and ancient Greek samples", feeling that this vindicated their opinions, but it isn't our fault if they lack understanding: I challenge anybody to prove that Jovialis or others ever claimed that south Italians overlap with Mycenaeans or that they are identical, given that it has been known since years that Mycenaeans plot close to south Italians, specifically below them (though in some PCA format they are on top of south Italians or more eastern compared to them), and the important point is about closeness to ancient Greek/Mycenaean samples,which suggests at least a large degree of continuity, no completely null genetic inputs from other areas, so it is really more telling of their intellectual capacities when they debunk basically their own strawmans than ours. Also, the closeness isn't just a "visual illusion" created by the PCA, since it has been repeated in many and many papers that I needn't linking again that among modern populations the most similar to ancient Mycenaeans and Greeks are modern south Italians and Greeks (especially to the extent they have less slavic admixture).

The most important point is closeness and similarity, which strongly suggest a certain degree of continuity, and this is what is important to keep in mind when commenting the following confident claim by a known anthrogenica user:

Let's explicate what such a claim entails, shall we?
In short this just means that no matter what empirical evidence emerges about the previous inhabitants of Italy, he will ALWAYS hold to his belief because he believes that the inhabitants of Italy have been replaced by "post-classical Greeks" from the Hellenistic East, so they bear very little if at all bearing about the genomics of modern Italians (southern especially), so it isn't really a problem that IA inhabitants of Sicily were already shifted towards modern Sicilians compared to Latins and that with the pull of ancient Greeks they start to approximate modern Sicilians even more, for they might have been as well Pigmies or Mongols and still they would have just "poofed" into thin air.
When asked what makes them believe that Italy got repopulated by "post-classical Greeks from the Hellenistic East", it seems to me that either they believe that the mere fact that south Italians aren't exactly identical to ancient Greeks is enough to justify their belief or they keep citing G25 (or both), but the first point is nothing short than a logical fallacy- and I shouldn't expect less from people that show themselves not to be particularly bright- and the second begs the question of the trustworthiness of G25, especially over official papers, furthermore on the first point one can add that whatever the following changes might have been south Italians aren't shifted towards the Levant or ancient Anatolia compared to those ancient Greek samples (rightward on the x axis), and the pull is evidently on another direction (upward in the Y axis), but I realise that they wouldn't even accept this point because it doesn't matter at all wherever ancient Sicilian samples might have plot- since they were replaced.
I realise that in order for, say, post classical Sicilians to plot exactly with ancient Greeks it would require a 100% replacement of IA Sicilians with Greeks, which I do not deem plausible, and I concede that it isn't as for now clear what else happened between the centuries that saw the "shift" of the Italian cline from its IA position to its modern one that overlaps the ancient Balkans, but the weightiest point to keep in mind is that NOTHING AT ALL even remotely supports the claim that ancient Italians were replaced by "east meds" who later got pulled northwards by Germanics, so that modern south Italians have more "east med" and Germanic ancestry than IA Italian (from Latin-like to Sicily_IA -like) ancestry, repeatedly asserted as a doubtless truth.

As for the J2 speculations, J2a clades has been found in Italy since the calcolithic, for heaven's sake: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982221005352

As a last note: when an user on Anthrogenica itself notices that J1 in south Italy is at 5% according to academic papers but at 7-8% according to the personal database of another anthrogenica user, doesn't it ring a warning bell that someone isn't being a honest broker?
Click to expand...

The urban graveyard effect shows the Anatolian migrations stopped and were not able to maintain their population in Rome. It also wasn't able to do it in the Dauibian limes. But for some reason we are expected to believe it only happened in the south. Despite the fact that southerners are closer to Greece_N than modern Greeks.

These people are just trol1ing imbeciles with an agenda. It's basically a group of 10 people with many socks. I'm going to start banning people who speak poorly about people here via other sites. Right now I'm on a vacation with my family, there will be some bans incoming as soon as I get a chance.
 
If modern Romans draw most of their ancestry from southern Italian sources, in addition to less but significant amount northern-north/central Italian sources. How could the study, Antonio et al. 2019 also show that the Anatolian/Levantine migrants faded out after the Imperial era, due to the urban graveyard effect, yet still be sourced by the south, if the south was replaced by those Anatolian/Levantine sources? That does not work if you use logic.
 
Leopoldo Leone said:
Since I've read on Anthrogenica that someone while speaking evidently of Eupedia referred to a "hysterical madwoman", I do not feel the need to be particularly diplomatic when I'll comment on the particularly idiotic claims I've seen on that site.

The usual suspects giggled that "even on Dodecad Sicilians do not overlap with Mycenaeans and ancient Greek samples", feeling that this vindicated their opinions, but it isn't our fault if they lack understanding: I challenge anybody to prove that Jovialis or others ever claimed that south Italians overlap with Mycenaeans or that they are identical, given that it has been known since years that Mycenaeans plot close to south Italians, specifically below them (though in some PCA format they are on top of south Italians or more eastern compared to them), and the important point is about closeness to ancient Greek/Mycenaean samples,which suggests at least a large degree of continuity, no completely null genetic inputs from other areas, so it is really more telling of their intellectual capacities when they debunk basically their own strawmans than ours. Also, the closeness isn't just a "visual illusion" created by the PCA, since it has been repeated in many and many papers that I needn't linking again that among modern populations the most similar to ancient Mycenaeans and Greeks are modern south Italians and Greeks (especially to the extent they have less slavic admixture).

The most important point is closeness and similarity, which strongly suggest a certain degree of continuity, and this is what is important to keep in mind when commenting the following confident claim by a known anthrogenica user:

Let's explicate what such a claim entails, shall we?
In short this just means that no matter what empirical evidence emerges about the previous inhabitants of Italy, he will ALWAYS hold to his belief because he believes that the inhabitants of Italy have been replaced by "post-classical Greeks" from the Hellenistic East, so they bear very little if at all bearing about the genomics of modern Italians (southern especially), so it isn't really a problem that IA inhabitants of Sicily were already shifted towards modern Sicilians compared to Latins and that with the pull of ancient Greeks they start to approximate modern Sicilians even more, for they might have been as well Pigmies or Mongols and still they would have just "poofed" into thin air.
When asked what makes them believe that Italy got repopulated by "post-classical Greeks from the Hellenistic East", it seems to me that either they believe that the mere fact that south Italians aren't exactly identical to ancient Greeks is enough to justify their belief or they keep citing G25 (or both), but the first point is nothing short than a logical fallacy- and I shouldn't expect less from people that show themselves not to be particularly bright- and the second begs the question of the trustworthiness of G25, especially over official papers, furthermore on the first point one can add that whatever the following changes might have been south Italians aren't shifted towards the Levant or ancient Anatolia compared to those ancient Greek samples (rightward on the x axis), and the pull is evidently on another direction (upward in the Y axis), but I realise that they wouldn't even accept this point because it doesn't matter at all wherever ancient Sicilian samples might have plot- since they were replaced.
I realise that in order for, say, post classical Sicilians to plot exactly with ancient Greeks it would require a 100% replacement of IA Sicilians with Greeks, which I do not deem plausible, and I concede that it isn't as for now clear what else happened between the centuries that saw the "shift" of the Italian cline from its IA position to its modern one that overlaps the ancient Balkans, but the weightiest point to keep in mind is that NOTHING AT ALL even remotely supports the claim that ancient Italians were replaced by "east meds" who later got pulled northwards by Germanics, so that modern south Italians have more "east med" and Germanic ancestry than IA Italian (from Latin-like to Sicily_IA -like) ancestry, repeatedly asserted as a doubtless truth.

As for the J2 speculations, J2a clades has been found in Italy since the calcolithic, for heaven's sake: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982221005352

As a last note: when an user on Anthrogenica itself notices that J1 in south Italy is at 5% according to academic papers but at 7-8% according to the personal database of another anthrogenica user, doesn't it ring a warning bell that someone isn't being a honest broker?
Click to expand...

I guess it's time for the "madwoman" to speak. :) The holder of that personal database of samples is Sikeliot, who has shown over and over again that he is a dishonest broker who chooses from among the samples he got duplicitously from unsuspecting and naive 23andme users to support whatever claim he chooses to make. There are a lot of people in this hobby who have psychological issues which affect their "analyses" of ancient dna, but anyone who has been around a while knows exactly how troubled he is. I'll leave it at that.

Let me just make it clear to him that his days of playing here are over. When you come to someone's house and then trash it, obviously you're no longer welcome. I'm talking to you, Monezza. Any other t-rolls who pop us will meet the same fate.

As for the substance of all this, since the IQ level of Sikeliot and his band over there is so low that they have to have things spelled out as if we were all in middle school, I never said that Southern Italians/Sicilians are identical to Mycenaeans/Classical Greeks. I said that the CLOSEST modern people to the Classical Greeks, in particular, are Southern Italians/Sicilians, Greek Islanders, and some Peloponnesians. That statement is far revolutionary; we've known that from numerous papers. This paper just goes some way toward showing why that is true. Straw man arguments just don't cut it, boys.

Nor did I ever say that events post the Classical Age would not have affected the populations of Southern Italy. I believe I spent quite a bit of time talking about the effect of the Moorish invasions and the founding of the Lombard cities on Sicily, in particular, for example. I think the incorporation of people from the Aegean and Western Anatolia probably happened.

The point is, to take this down to elementary school level: genetic input and REPLACEMENT are two very different things.

I'd also advise that when someone keeps moving the goalpost it's a sign there's something wrong with the hypothesis. Has anyone else noticed that all of a sudden a purported HUGE impact of Levantine peoples has been switched for a hypothesis that there was wholesale REPLACEMENT by Western Anatolians? :)

A few facts for the fact challenged in this hobby:

A good percentage of slaves, particularly in Italy, were Italians who sold themselves into slavery. Poor farmers, for example, heavily in debt, might take this route. Look it up.

Yes, SOME slaves were manumitted. However, nobody was manumitting slaves in the mines, those providing labor in the fields of huge latifundia, those working in vats full of piss in dye works, the slaves in brothels or in the arena etc. etc. What is wrong with you people? Why would such slaves be manumitted? Those who were would have been house slaves or higher level slaves in business enterprises who would have provided a benefit to the owner as a client as much or more so than as a slave. Use some common sense for goodness' sakes.

The urban graveyard effect is real. Look it up. The Germanic invasions, the Gothic War etc. finished off the cities. In a time of famine, pestilence and constant warfare, the city dwellers were the first to die. Even during World War II, which was mild in comparison for Italy, people were blown to smithereens in La Spezia, or dying of hunger. Many of those fleeing the city were killed by arial attacks. I know, because my great-uncle fed some of them, took the leg off one to prevent gangrene. Use some common sense, if you have any.

The lack of common sense is also obvious with this constant mantra of all these far flung "Imperial" Romans fleeing back toward the center because of the Barbarian Invasions. First of all, any such people would not have ALL been "IMPERIAL ROMANS" genetically. Ever taken a look at the "Tuscan" like samples in Szolad? Second of all, do you have any concept how dangerous the roads would have been? Any refugees would have had as much luck reaching Rome as the young people of the Children's Crusade had of reaching Jerusalem. The roads were treacherous; no one was going anywhere.

I'd also advise that if you need a more "northern" input into Sicily to make your Micky Mouse runs even marginally close, you would need a Medieval Northern Italian sample, i.e. Piemonte, Liguria, Lombardia from the appropriate period, of which, to my knowledge there is none, although there is one which is pretty close. I would submit, however, that just as the Venosa samples are very close to modern South Italians, the modern people of those areas are probably pretty close to those who lived there in the 1200s.

The hyperbole and hysteria comes from these people, not from us. It's the typical response of people who see their hypothesis crumbling.
 
Let me put this more simply for the thinking impaired on the other site. Modern Romans mostly come southern Italian origin, and the trajectory shows Anatolian/Levantines died away after the Imperial era.
 
To be "levantine" is to be Natufian. BedouinB and Saudis are the most "levantine".

PapWg3d.png


https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/...m/retrieve/pii/S0092867421008394?showall=true
 
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A Spanish user writes on Anthrogenica "No one can deny the genetic change that took place on the Italian peninsula."

ph2ter published a PCA which shows that a genetic "change" has occurred in the Iberian Peninsula not unlike Italy. I wonder why the genetic change that occurred in the Iberian Peninsula is so overlooked.


s4x6yhI.png
 
brick said:
A Spanish user writes on Anthrogenica "No one can deny the genetic change that took place on the Italian peninsula."

ph2ter published a PCA which shows that a genetic "change" has occurred in the Iberian Peninsula not unlike Italy. I wonder why the genetic change that occurred in the Iberian Peninsula is so overlooked.
Click to expand...

Just two caveat on that PCA:

1)The samples labelled as Sicily Iron Age are just from the Sicani tribe, which, as stated before, were a pretty isolated population and probably not representative of all the people living in Sicily during the Iron Age. Samples from Siculi and Elymnians are necessary as well if we want to draw a realistic cluster of Iron Age Sicily.

2) In other PCA projections I saw, Myceneaens and all Bronze Age Aegean samples are clearly most east shifted regarding to Sicily. I don't know what it depends on, but it's another reason not to draw too much conclusion from one PCA alone.
anatolia-caucasus-levant-pca.png
 
Brick: RE your post, In my view, and that is all it is, there has been from what I have seen over the years on blogs and forums that I have visited and read the comments and sub-set of Spaniards and Italians who try to see who has the most Steppe/Indo European admixture, who had more Levantine/Punic admixture, etc. While most Iberian and Italian along with Greek descendant folks get along well with each other, in this forum in particular as Trolls are not tolerated here, there does appear to be a tension between those 2 groups I referred to above (Spanish and Italian),

Using nomenclature from my part of the USA, these types of people (both) are what I call a*s kissers who want the placate the Nordicist.
 
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Francesco said:
Just two caveat on that PCA:

1)The samples labelled as Sicily Iron Age are just from the Sicani tribe, which, as stated before, were a pretty isolated population and probably not representative of all the people living in Sicily during the Iron Age. Samples from Siculi and Elymnians are necessary as well if we want to draw a realistic cluster of Iron Age Sicily.

2) In other PCA projections I saw, Myceneaens and all Bronze Age Aegean samples are clearly most east shifted regarding to Sicily. I don't know what it depends on, but it's another reason not to draw too much conclusion from one PCA alone.
anatolia-caucasus-levant-pca.png
Click to expand...



It was not my point to discuss this PCA. My point was that if it can be argued that there was a genetic change in Italy, it can also be argued for the same reasons for the Iberian peninsula. Other PCAs show the same for the Iberian Peninsula, the modern populations (Spaniards and Portuguese) are shifted further south-east than the Iron Age samples from Iberian Peninsula.
 
brick said:
It was not my point to discuss this PCA. My point was that if it can be argued that there was a genetic change in Italy, it can also be argued for the same reasons for the Iberian peninsula. Other PCAs show the same for the Iberian Peninsula, the modern populations (Spaniards and Portuguese) are shifted further south-east than the Iron Age samples from Iberian Peninsula.
Click to expand...

Yes, I knew it wasn't your point, I just seize the opportunity to clarify those two concepts. Regarding the Iberian shift, I believe a certain role could be attribuited to the italic and of course greek colonization.
 
brick said:
A Spanish user writes on Anthrogenica "No one can deny the genetic change that took place on the Italian peninsula."

ph2ter published a PCA which shows that a genetic "change" has occurred in the Iberian Peninsula not unlike Italy. I wonder why the genetic change that occurred in the Iberian Peninsula is so overlooked.


s4x6yhI.png
Click to expand...
I think anyone who's been in this hobby for more than a hot minute knows the answer to that question. :)

If one wanted to do a fast and dirty analysis, one could take the French Basque (Not Pais Vasco bkz even that has a bit of North African) and compare them to most modern Spaniards.

Not that I'm suggesting any such thing.

Anyone who plays this game between Iberians and Italians is odious. We're both Southern Europeans, brothers, with similar culture and customs and even mutually understandable languages. Why should we toady to Nordicists and accept their idiotic idea that they are somehow superior?
 
If these people at anthrogenica have been doing runs based on the Sicani alone then that is beyond careless, it is a deliberate fraud.

A population of admixed Sicani and the civilian population of the Greek polis, would have been the "Sicilian" Iron Age population prior to the Roman Era, at least in this area.

After seeing this, how could anyone with any integrity pay attention to, much less engage with dishonest people like this?
 
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