the dangers of etymology and graphies

[MOESAN]

here some funny facts:

Concerning magicétymologies and the mistaking appearences of some names I 'll puthere some examples in my competence.
Patronym RIO :2 origins : the region of higher density is Morbihan in Brittanywhere it is the hypocoristic of the saint RIEG (<<RIOC)celtic rig- : king >> chief ; inthe East of this department it takes often the form RYO.Theother Brittany forms are RIOU.Thename exists in great number BUT very lesser density in Spain where itmeans river,and is overnumbered by derived forms RIOSand DEL RIO.Destiny is found of bad jokes because in southern France (Occitany) aname RIOU existstoo along with RIEU,DELRIEU, DURIEU, DURRIEUevocating a russelet.Britainand Ireland have the 'Invincible Armada' legend, in Brittany popularlegend has the equivalent with the Fort de l'Aguila built in Morbihan by a Spanish warofficer during the same events ??? So local people holds thattheir Rio's fellows are Spanyards soldiers descendants : all ofthem – kindenough to give their patronym to « children of love » inan enemy land - hadthe same patronym : no Martinez, no Garcia, no Fernandez, no …only Rio ? Are you stupid ? And all these Morbihan Bretonsnamed BELLEGO,ALLANO, GUEGANO, ROSNARHO, AUFFREDO, AUDRENO, EVENO, GUYONVARHO,JEGO, JEGADO andso on (Ican give you a long list, by the way a long list of toponyms in-O too)?No case to recall your neighbours almost all these names have brotherforms in other department of Brittany as theBELLEGOU, ALLANOU,GUIGUENO, AUFFREDOU, AUDRENO, JEGOU withoutspeaking of BELLEC,ALLAN, GUEGAN:GUEGUEN, AUFFRET, AUDREN, EVENGUYONVARCH, JEGAT...therig-root gave a lot of first names and surnames in Brittany as RIHOUAY,RIVOA, RIVOUAY,RI(H)OUAL,RIVOAL, RIVOALAN(O), RIVALAN, RIVALLAN(D)(T),RIVALLAIN, RIALLIN,RUELLAN, RIALLAND.A Breton scholar thinks these names from Riuoe,Riuual, Riuuallonand other lost names on the same root were the mark of NorthernBritton lineages of old Rheget and Stratclud.
Other mistaking names :
PEREZ,PéREZ, PéRèS :morerare, they exists in Brittany since long ago too, and are matronymsformed withsuffix -ez/-es uponPER << PEZR<< PEDR :Peter <<Petrus, Petros.An old form survived : PEZRESaswe can encounter rare forms for males like PEDRON,PEZDRON, PEZERON formodern PERON,PERRON. PEREZ thistime is far more common in Spain same etymon) and PERESmorecommon in Portugal (sameetymontoo).This christian name from greek petros(orI think biblic *Kephraim :rock)isone of the most popular. To complicate things, in S-W Occitany therewould be a PéRèSfrom a toponym meaning peartrees place !(cognatewith Pérais?)!
RUNGOAT :spitetwo elements evocating english words, run& goat,this name is a breton name of toponymic origin ; as REUNGOAT,RINGOAT,itis a compound of run,reun :hill + koad :wood, forest.


Other example of possible mistakes or « wild etymologies » :
french 'couché' : lying down (+in bed), andbreton 'kousket' : asleep << kousk,welsh cwsg : sleep – a local bretonpronounciation is/,kuSt/very close to french /ku,Se/ !As the two meanings evocate a close situation it would be very easyto propose a common origin for both words when they have nothing incommon (french 'coucher' < lat- 'collocare')


Slavic languages :very surprising final evolutions of consonnants :


I'm not a pro oflingusitic, so this short communication – surely incomplete – isjust to point out somme difficulties and to call for caution whentrying to link names or words of different languages one together


K (# K^w-)>> /s/ s -/ts/c - /c/[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]č[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif],cz - [/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]/[/FONT]cj[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]/[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]ć - [/FONT]
[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]+ /[/FONT]x[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]/[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]h, ch, kh - [/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif] /[/FONT]ʃ[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]/[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]š[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif],sz[/FONT]
[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]G >> /[/FONT]z[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]/[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]z - [/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]/[/FONT]ȝ[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]/[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]ž[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif],[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]ź [/FONT]
[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]T (+ j) /[/FONT]ts[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]/[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]c - [/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]/[/FONT]c[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]/[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]č[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif],cz[/FONT]
[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]S /s/- /S/[/FONT]
[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]L /l/- /-/ [/FONT]
[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]& : some of thesemultiresults palatalizations are found in lexicon derivation(suffixation : morphology)[/FONT]
[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]su[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]v[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]([/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]dry[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif] :[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]<< [/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]su[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]h[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]/[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]suX/[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif],[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]see english [/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]vsscot dialect '[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]enou[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]gh[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]'[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif])<> [/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]isu[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]š[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]iti[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]([/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]todry[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif])[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]- [/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]jedna[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]k[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]<> [/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]jedna[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]č[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]ina[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]– [/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]dru[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]g[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]<> dru[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]ž[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]ina[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]- [/FONT]


[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]other confusing phenomenon[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]s[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif] :elis[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]i[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]onof inaccentued vowels and syllabic [/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]r [/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]:[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]do notice russian tendsto do the contrary : inframing vowels between consonnants, whatdoes not seem a typical slavic trend, rather the opposite :finnic-ugric influence ?[/FONT]
[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]Elisions :[/FONT]
[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]slobodan/slobodna –[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]dan/dnevni –dobar/dobro[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif] - [/FONT]
[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]Syllabic 'r' :[/FONT]
[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]drvo[d°r°vo] d[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]r[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]ževo,därvo [/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]([/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]tree[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif])[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]– vuk : [/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif][[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]v°l°k[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]][/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif](vlak, vlik) [/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]([/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]wolf[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif])[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]-[/FONT]
[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]& :some pronounce syllabic °r° as /-[/FONT]r-[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]/when others (Czec[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]h[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]sby instance) pronounce rather as /-[/FONT]r-[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]/[/FONT]


[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]look at spoken oïl french :[/FONT]
[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]« je me retire »: [je m' retire] or [j' me r'tire] !!! [/FONT]


[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]some ancient nasal consonnantshave been dropped out and the nasalization of vowels they had createdfaded out too – only today polish shows some remnants of it – afamous example of slavic « relooking » work on words isthe word for 'language', jaz-ik ??? << *lengw- <<*dengw- (compare ''ingua', 'langue' and 'tongue', 'tong')[/FONT]


[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]the inaccentued finals gave wayto « wet » (yota) consonnats in northern and western slavic languages, not in the southern ones, where I think a strongsubstrata is at work :[/FONT]
[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]dat^j< > dati[/FONT]


[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]So, in modern slavic languages,in front of a 'c' /ts/ you don't know if in other old I-Eanlanguages you had a *Kor *T, the same in front of a [FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]š[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]which couldcorrespond to *[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]KH [/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]or*[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]S [/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]orbefore a word beginning with a vowel you cannot be sure there has notbeen a *[/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]L [/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]lost...[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]I write this because in some thealleged modern and ancient names supposed to prove common origin(thread about Slavic language and history by instance) I found a lotwhich could not have the same root.[/FONT]

 

[RobertColumbia]

I'm not sure I understand what your main point is. Are you trying to prove that certain words sound similar and have similar meanings but are not cognates?

 

[MOESAN]

I'm not sure I understand what your main point is. Are you trying to prove that certain words sound similar and have similar meanings but are not cognates?

Not at all: first part: names of same writing (not exactly same pronounciation) but not cognates and from different languages with different meanings - exception: Perez,Peres, in different cultures but inherited from a same borrowed name, spite independant evolution (but convergence: here, the celtic substrata could explain same evolution: tendancy to lenition).
secondly (chosen example:slavic or pseudo slavic names), some links supposed between abcient tribes or ethnies and subsequent names based upon some vague phonetic or rather writings formal proximity

only some examples to call at some prudence concerning supposed links...

 

[MOESAN]

always staying in generalities:
when trying to affirm links between diverse languages, someones use of chains of sounds changes known and confirmed as possible trails of sounds evolutions between cognates languages; OK, but let's keep in mind every couple of families languages has its OWN rules of passage or specific "bridges" of intermediary sounds, and these bridges cannot be used for others inter-languages relations; I saw that more than a time on this forum.
BI: germanic H - slavic K (or other K) is a possibility - but latin H for slavic K is none.
germanic F for latin or others K is a possibility, but latin F or gaelic F have not this link to K, as PIE cognates at least
Some time ago, I had to digest some long lists of basquic, slovenian and czech words, and doing that, I saw a lot of assumptions (95% wrong in my opinion) based upon NO possible phonetic links, or upon possibilites picked here and there among the above mentioned "possible "bridges" between languages, picked in a higgledy-piggledy way;
Everybody can mistake, but it's good trying to avoid the most possible.
No offense to anybody because I do sometimes some hypothesis based upon modern forms, which came out to be completely wrong when I put my hand on more ancient forms; even the most knowledged man (not me here!) can be a bit "naive" sometimes.
I think that when we are searching ancient links between languages, some short roots in words bearing close enough meanings, very often based upon groups of stops or consonnants, are more likely than three syllabes too ressembling words which can be suspected to be more recent loanwords.
when we find, by example, a basquic word ressembling more or less IE words, the first reaction to have is not to say: IE cognate words, but to look for a possible loan upon catillan language!
Sorry I know a lot are aware of this, but seemignly, not all. I have more than a thread in mind, <often concerning Eastern Europe.

 

[MOESAN]

Old brain of mine!
germanic F - other cognates in P, not in K !!! Sure you had understood it was a "cuckoo egg" ('wi koukoug')

 

[MOESAN]

it could refer to some other "linguistic" threads
an example again :

we can built a lot of theories with some kind of method, without a look to ancient forms, and using this simplistic ‘domino’ way to put elements with elements as they come, we can say that the French verbs voirandsavoir share the same basic element ; but voir derives from vid- (video) and savoir from sapere what falsifies the hypothesis – nevertheless, the semantic aspect was not ridiculous at first sight : the man who sees has more chances to know than the one who does not see ! In fact in Brittonic the verbs for « to know », modern Welsh and Breton : gwybod / gouzoud (< gouezvout) come from a prototype *wid-bot : surely something like « view+to be » which confirm the hypothesis was not stupid at first… Not stupid but not confirmed.

 

[Zeus10]

it could refer to some other "linguistic" threads
an example again :

we can built a lot of theories with some kind of method, without a look to ancient forms, and using this simplistic ‘domino’ way to put elements with elements as they come, we can say that the French verbs voirandsavoir share the same basic element ; but voir derives from vid- (video) and savoir from sapere what falsifies the hypothesis – nevertheless, the semantic aspect was not ridiculous at first sight : the man who sees has more chances to know than the one who does not see ! In fact in Brittonic the verbs for « to know », modern Welsh and Breton : gwybod / gouzoud (< gouezvout) come from a prototype *wid-bot : surely something like « view+to be » which confirm the hypothesis was not stupid at first… Not stupid but not confirmed.

You are absolutely right. French voir is a firm cognate with videre(Latin) or vedere(Italian) or vërej(Albanian). BUT apparently you forget something voir is infinitif present , with the root that varieties from vu in indicatif passe compose and imperative passe to vi passe simple to ve(rrais) conditionnel present etcetera, which means that its inflected voir form, is not carved on stone. I think the real meaning of je vois or videre(Latin) is "to place a look"(set eyes on) which you naively interpreted as "view to be". This once again, confirmed that proto-roots like *wid-bot are serving as wrong premises, and eventually will drive you to the wrong conclusion, because they simply are wrong.

 

[hrvclv]

The man who sees is the man who knows - or, the man who knows is the man who has seen.

PIE root : weid

Sanskrit veda "I know"
Avestan vaeda "I know"
Greek oida, Doric woida "I know", idein "to see"
Old Irish fis "vision, find "white", i.e. "clearly seen", fiuss "knowledge;"
Welsh gwyn, Gaulish vindos, Breton gwenn "white"
Gothic, Old Swedish, Old English witan "to know", Gothic weitan "to see", English wise, German wissen "to know"
Lithuanian vysti "to see"
Bulgarian vidya "I see" Polish widzieć "to see", wiedzieć "to know" Russian videt' "to see", vest' "news", Old Russian vedat' "to know"

PIE root *bheue- "to be, exist, grow, become"
German present first and second person singular (bin, bist, from Old High German bim "I am," bist "thou art"),
Latin perfective tenses of esse (fui "I was" etc.),
Old Church Slavonic byti "be"
Greek phu- "become"
Old Irish bi'u "I am"
Lithuanian būti "to be"
Russian byt' "to be" etc.

(So, possibly : widbot --> it grew to be seen, it came to (my) sight, it appeared to me ???)

 

[Ygorcs]

I absolutely agree with you. Many people jump to conclusions - coincidentally or not, it is always a conclusion that confirms their own previous impressions and opinions, how likely is that, huh? lol - without really digging deeper to make sure that "similarity" really means "correlation" and, more than that, that the correlation they found can indicate a causation. It's sometimes much more exciting to some people to simply throw away all caution and even method and logics themselves, and instead rely on convenient "ad hoc" explanations that somehow fit the conclusion that they already wanted to reach no matter what.

 

[Zeus10]

The man who sees is the man who knows - or, the man who knows is the man who has seen.

PIE root : weid

Sanskrit veda "I know"
Avestan vaeda "I know"
Greek oida, Doric woida "I know", idein "to see"
Old Irish fis "vision, find "white", i.e. "clearly seen", fiuss "knowledge;"
Welsh gwyn, Gaulish vindos, Breton gwenn "white"
Gothic, Old Swedish, Old English witan "to know", Gothic weitan "to see", English wise, German wissen "to know"
Lithuanian vysti "to see"
Bulgarian vidya "I see" Polish widzieć "to see", wiedzieć "to know" Russian videt' "to see", vest' "news", Old Russian vedat' "to know"

PIE root *bheue- "to be, exist, grow, become"
German present first and second person singular (bin, bist, from Old High German bim "I am," bist "thou art"),
Latin perfective tenses of esse (fui "I was" etc.),
Old Church Slavonic byti "be"
Greek phu- "become"
Old Irish bi'u "I am"
Lithuanian būti "to be"
Russian byt' "to be" etc.

(So, possibly : widbot --> it grew to be seen, it came to (my) sight, it appeared to me ???)

And Albanian DI, the most primitive c-v structure possible.
and the synonym njo=kno-w again a primitive c-v structure, (nj a diagrammed phoneme in Albanian alphabet)

 

[MOESAN]

And Albanian DI, the most primitive c-v structure possible.
and the synonym njo=kno-w again a primitive c-v structure, (nj a diagrammed phoneme in Albanian alphabet)

njo-? I think is was rather IE *g'(e)n- to know, maybe of same origin as the supposed homophone meaning to give birth, to generate seeconnaître < *co-gno-scere (?), toknow/kennen, Slav- znat', znaja, Celt-Britt- adnabod/anav(ez)oud < *at-gna-bot, Sansk- djanati (he knows) Greek gi-gnô-skô ...
here again we could have a coincidence or at the opposite a very ancient semantic link (to be proved)
your njo- seems more a residual trace than a true "everlasting ancestral" root, according to myself (I like being in accord with myself, sometimes, however it could harm my natural modesty)

 

[MOESAN]

The man who sees is the man who knows - or, the man who knows is the man who has seen.

PIE root : weid

Sanskrit veda "I know"
Avestan vaeda "I know"
Greek oida, Doric woida "I know", idein "to see"
Old Irish fis "vision, find "white", i.e. "clearly seen", fiuss "knowledge;"
Welsh gwyn, Gaulish vindos, Breton gwenn "white"
Gothic, Old Swedish, Old English witan "to know", Gothic weitan "to see", English wise, German wissen "to know"
Lithuanian vysti "to see"
Bulgarian vidya "I see" Polish widzieć "to see", wiedzieć "to know" Russian videt' "to see", vest' "news", Old Russian vedat' "to know"

PIE root *bheue- "to be, exist, grow, become"
German present first and second person singular (bin, bist, from Old High German bim "I am," bist "thou art"),
Latin perfective tenses of esse (fui "I was" etc.),
Old Church Slavonic byti "be"
Greek phu- "become"
Old Irish bi'u "I am"
Lithuanian būti "to be"
Russian byt' "to be" etc.

(So, possibly : widbot --> it grew to be seen, it came to (my) sight, it appeared to me ???)

Seems very sensitive - I had forgotten all these *wid-/*wis- roots for Germanics and Slavics; thanks for sharing it.

 

[MOESAN]

You are absolutely right. French voir is a firm cognate with videre(Latin) or vedere(Italian) or vërej(Albanian). BUT apparently you forget something voir is infinitif present , with the root that varieties from vu in indicatif passe compose and imperative passe to vi passe simple to ve(rrais) conditionnel present etcetera, which means that its inflected voir form, is not carved on stone. I think the real meaning of je vois or videre(Latin) is "to place a look"(set eyes on) which you naively interpreted as "view to be". This once again, confirmed that proto-roots like *wid-bot are serving as wrong premises, and eventually will drive you to the wrong conclusion, because they simply are wrong.

Is it possible you would believe I do'nt know nothing about forms of voir?!?
Do you understand what you read? and for Celtic "view-to be" it's just a juxtaposition creating a new meaning by thoughts association; by the way 'bot' ("to be") is commonly used in some Brittonic verbal infinitives for verbs meaning to know, to be acquainted with, to be worth of, to occur, to want ("to be lacking to"), Breton: gouzoud, anavoud/anavezoud, talvoud, degouezhoud/
/c'hoarvezoud, falloud/fallvezoud - your explanations are going fast and far, and are complicated; I think in a primitive language the concept of "seeing" was born before the concept of "to set your eyes on"; just my point.

 

[Jovani]

njo-? I think is was rather IE *g'(e)n- to know, maybe of same origin as the supposed homophone meaning to give birth, to generate seeconnaître < *co-gno-scere (?), toknow/kennen, Slav- znat', znaja, Celt-Britt- adnabod/anav(ez)oud < *at-gna-bot, Sansk- djanati (he knows) Greek gi-gnô-skô ...here again we could have a coincidence or at the opposite a very ancient semantic link (to be proved)your njo- seems more a residual trace than a true "everlasting ancestral" root, according to myself (I like being in accord with myself, sometimes, however it could harm my natural modesty)

He's been banned I think.

 

[Jovialis]

He's been banned I think.

Yeah, as he should be, and I had did it. Also, I think people can read the fact that he's banned.

Moreover, I don't appreciate you making presumptuous and inflammatory comments like this about my discretion. If you do it again, I will count it as a provocation.

Please get back on topic.

 

[Jovani]

Yeah, as he should be, and I had did it. Also, I think people can read the fact that he's banned.Moreover, I don't appreciate you making presumptuous and inflammatory comments like this about my discretion. If you do it again, I will count it as a provocation.Please get back on topic.

I never mentioned you or made presumption about your discretion and I never made an inflammatory comment. In fact I don't know you, or even care who you are. I only pointed out the fact that he's been banned, because other members are still quoting him, and I assumed they haven't had noticed that. Yetos is the best example, it took another member explanation for him to realise that.