Southern Illyrians & Mycenean Greeks on a PCA plot

[Dianatomia]

The actual southern Illyrians (Taulanti, Bylliones, Albanoi, Dardanians) and other northern Hellenized people like Epirotes and Macedonians would be somewhere around here

Adding Slavic ancestry to Mycenean Greeks you get a perfect fit to modern Greeks/Albanians. Southern Illyrians and Epirotes/Macedonians + Slavic ancestry are a perfect model for both northern Greeks and Macedonians. Certainly not Thracian/Dacian or any other already-eastern shifted people.

There is a lot of free interpretation here. You can argue that modern Greeks received more of the same source which turned Minoans into Mycenaeans. By this very model Mycenaeans could be 85% Minoan + 15% Slavic. In retrospect, if the proto-Greek source came from Epirus/Thessaly/Macedonia region, it would only make sense that this region would be pulled even further from Minoans towards the same direction as the Mycenaeans are pulled. A possible Dorian invasion could have pulled more of this source further South as well.

Also, you can draw a straight line from Greek Crete to Greek Helladic_MBA, and have the Greek mainland exactly in between. In fact, Greek Thessaly is exactly between Greek Crete and Greek Helladic_MBA (MBA Thessaly).

 

[Angela]

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/42211-Modeling-with-aDNA?p=638821&viewfull=1#post638821
With my model, you can see it chooses Yamnaya and Minoans for the Balkans and Greece. That matches Lazaridis et al. 2017 and Clemente et al. 2021. There's also a small Anatolia_BA component which probably comes from the Aegean during later periods. Then there's the Coded Ware which matches the modeling of Slavic countries.

These other models are far inferior to yours and also don't match historical migrations as well. I don't see the point of them or the thread when your work has already explored the topic in a better way.

 

[Constantine]

Also, you can draw a straight line from Greek Crete to Greek Helladic_MBA, and have the Greek mainland exactly in between. In fact, Greek Thessaly is exactly between Greek Crete and Greek Helladic_MBA (MBA Thessaly).

This one is the kicker--the "perfect fit"--right here. Good luck explaining away this one (although I expect the usual "creative" theories and sample selections).

 

[Constantine]

Adding Slavic ancestry to Mycenean Greeks you get a perfect fit to modern Greeks/Albanians. Southern Illyrians and Epirotes/Macedonians + Slavic ancestry are a perfect model for both northern Greeks and Macedonians. Certainly not Thracian/Dacian or any other already-eastern shifted people.

This actually recapitulates what we know of Greek history and anthropology. Earliest "Greeks" of heavy EEF extraction (Minoans, etc.) becoming shifted eastward by various Bronze Age newcomers (there was a large change in skeletal remains during this time) and ending up resembling modern Cretans.

Later on, various tribes from the Pindos and surrounds (who had a northwestern--probably Illyrian-like--shift) trickled in, sending the (mostly mainland) Greeks westward again. And a bit northward for good measure.

I think even Gold Standard Empuries would find this beyond reproach.

 

[Jovialis]

This actually recapitulates what we know of Greek history and anthropology. Earliest "Greeks" of heavy EEF extraction (Minoans, etc.) becoming shifted eastward by various Bronze Age newcomers (there was a large change in skeletal remains during this time) and ending up resembling modern Cretans.

Later on, various tribes from the Pindos and surrounds (who had a northwestern--probably Illyrian-like--shift) trickled in, sending the (mostly mainland) Greeks westward again. And a bit northward for good measure.

I think even Gold Standard Empuries would find this beyond reproach.

Minoans were mostly Anatolia_N + CHG. EEF had some WHG in them. Though there is an eastern shift considering the model includes Anatolia_BA, which is a bit more CHG than Minoans, + about 5% "levantine farmer" in them.

 

[D.L.M]

This actually recapitulates what we know of Greek history and anthropology. Earliest "Greeks" of heavy EEF extraction (Minoans, etc.) becoming shifted eastward by various Bronze Age newcomers (there was a large change in skeletal remains during this time) and ending up resembling modern Cretans.

Later on, various tribes from the Pindos and surrounds (who had a northwestern--probably Illyrian-like--shift) trickled in, sending the (mostly mainland) Greeks westward again. And a bit northward for good measure.

I think even Gold Standard Empuries would find this beyond reproach.

Iron Age Epirotes and Macedonians in particular were likely, IMO, more northern shifted compared to Mycenaean-like Peloponnesians but kinda like Apulians are to Sicilians not something drastic.

As for resembling Aegean Islanders, I suspect the migrations during the Hellenistic and Imperial Rome taking the lion's share for the cause of the shift. Some additional minor Anatolian admixture came during the Byzantine period. And some even during the Classical Period, like in Attica. The samples that Davidski saw in Greece are "all over the place". (Probably like in Imperial Rome)

Peloponnesians before the Slavic migration were undoubtedly closer to Aegean Islanders than to Mycenaeans. I think that will reduce the Slavic admixture by 5 points in Peloponnese.

 

[Ralphie Boy]

According to this study that has yet to be published, the ancient Greek settlers of Campania brought “Aegean” ancestry. Not really sure what this means without seeing the results, but this ancestry was in Greeks at least as far back as the 8th century BC and lasted for a few centuries.

https://submissions.e-a-a.org/eaa20...itory_pdf.php?abstract=3776&source=repository

 

[Dianatomia]

Iron Age Epirotes and Macedonians in particular were likely, IMO, more northern shifted compared to Mycenaean-like Peloponnesians but kinda like Apulians are to Sicilians not something drastic.

As for resembling Aegean Islanders, I suspect the migrations during the Hellenistic and Imperial Rome taking the lion's share for the cause of the shift. Some additional minor Anatolian admixture came during the Byzantine period. And some even during the Classical Period, like in Attica. The samples that Davidski saw in Greece are "all over the place". (Probably like in Imperial Rome)

Peloponnesians before the Slavic migration were undoubtedly closer to Aegean Islanders than to Mycenaeans. I think that will reduce the Slavic admixture by 5 points in Peloponnese.

The issue with your hypothesis is that Croatia IA and Bulgaria IA existed after the BA Mycenaeans. And yet you argue that these Balkanians became Mycenaean-like, prior to the Slavs. While historically we only know of migrations North to South, not South to North. Also, if MBA Thessalians were to be admixed with Slavs in the Middle Ages, then modern Thessalians would plot were modern Croats are today. While in fact, compared to their MBA ancestors, Thessalians are pulled towards Mycenaeans/Cretans. Now, I am sure that Slavs were absorbed in Thessaly during the Middle Ages, but using BA Mycenaeans to make an estimates of that admixture seems incorrect.

 

[Angela]

According to this study that has yet to be published, the ancient Greek settlers of Campania brought “Aegean” ancestry. Not really sure what this means without seeing the results, but this ancestry was in Greeks at least as far back as the 8th century BC and lasted for a few centuries.

https://submissions.e-a-a.org/eaa20...itory_pdf.php?abstract=3776&source=repository

View attachment 13071

Fwiw, the settlers were from Euboea, who were Ionian speakers

"The earliest inhabitants were the Abantes, who brought a Bronze Age culture from central Greece. In Classical literature the island had a number of names, including Macris, Doliche, Abantis, and Hellopia, the last derived from the Hellopes, who occupied the north. The centre was occupied by the Ionians and the south by the Dryopes. The Ionians excelled at navigating the sea and traded in swords; Ionian Chalcis led the colonizing movement to Italy and Sicily, while Eretria, just south of Chalcis, about 750–700 BCE led a large-scale colonization of the Thracian peninsula, later known as Chalcidice[FONT=Georgia, serif]."[/FONT]

 

[MaxCRO]

There is no Slavic or eastern european ancestry in Iron Age Croatians. OP post makes no sense. They shift towards Italics, Etrsucans and Celts. They were just way too northern to model modern Balkanites with them.Obviously Balkans received large amount of Imperial Roman and Anatolian like ancestry and that's why you can't model Albanians (or even Croats) with them alone.

There's no evidence southern Illyrians were much different than Croatian IA. Daunians in Apulia who are arcehologically believed to come from Albania proper were similarly northern/western.
Albos aren't that Illyrian obviously, they got loads of Thracian, Roman and Slavic admixture on top of that.

No E-V13 was found in Illyrians either, neither in Croatia, Slovenia or southern Italy. This whole thread looks like a giant cope with the fact Paleo-Balkan people were heavily diluted even before Slavic arrival and that modern Balkanites are heavily mixed, including non Slavic speakers like Greeks and Albos.

 

[Jovialis]

The issue with your hypothesis is that Croatia IA and Bulgaria IA existed after the BA Mycenaeans. And yet you argue that these Balkanians became Mycenaean-like, prior to the Slavs. While historically we only know of migrations North to South, not South to North. Also, if MBA Thessalians were to be admixed with Slavs in the Middle Ages, then modern Thessalians would plot were modern Croats are today. While in fact, compared to their MBA ancestors, Thessalians are pulled towards Mycenaeans/Cretans. Now, I am sure that Slavs were absorbed in Thessaly during the Middle Ages, but using BA Mycenaeans to make an estimates of that admixture seems incorrect.

"Minoans" are just any member of a non-Indo-European people that had lived on Crete. We don't know what they called themselves, it is merely a name given to them by early 20th century archeologist, Sir Arthur Evans . However, according to my model it seems these non-Indo-European people who resemble "Minoans" have an ancestry that models well for the whole Balkans and beyond. Yamnaya accounts for the Indo-European spread into the Balkans. Perhaps there was a cline of Minoan and Steppe, as Clemente et al. 2021 may have us believe? We see some northern Balkans groups have a bit of ancestry that resembles that of Central Europe. However, for the most part, they look like other Balkanites, who received Slavic geneflow. The proxy for "Slavic" can be associate with Corded ware (at least partly*) here, as it is evident in other Slavic countries in the model.

 

[Jovialis]

^^If Anatolia_BA is a good proxy for "Eastern Mediterranean" i.e. "Imperial Roman" as some people call it (which is wrong terminology imo), than the model is consistent with Oldale et al. 2021, which states that the "native" Balkan_IA did have a revival. Which was there after enriched by Slavic, (which is evident with corded ware's relation to Slavs).

 

[D.L.M]

There is no Slavic or eastern european ancestry in Iron Age Croatians. OP post makes no sense. They shift towards Italics, Etrsucans and Celts. They were just way too northern to model modern Balkanites with them.Obviously Balkans received large amount of Imperial Roman and Anatolian like ancestry and that's why you can't model Albanians (or even Croats) with them alone.

There's no evidence southern Illyrians were much different than Croatian IA. Daunians in Apulia who are arcehologically believed to come from Albania proper were similarly northern/western.
Albos aren't that Illyrian obviously, they got loads of Thracian, Roman and Slavic admixture on top of that.

No E-V13 was found in Illyrians either, neither in Croatia, Slovenia or southern Italy. This whole thread looks like a giant cope with the fact Paleo-Balkan people were heavily diluted even before Slavic arrival and that modern Balkanites are heavily mixed, including non Slavic speakers like Greeks and Albos.

How do you explain that E-V13 outnumbers J2b in all Dinaric Slavs who apparently have most of their Ballkanic ancestry from assimilated Illyrians?

 

[Southpaw]

There is no Slavic or eastern european ancestry in Iron Age Croatians. OP post makes no sense. They shift towards Italics, Etrsucans and Celts. They were just way too northern to model modern Balkanites with them.Obviously Balkans received large amount of Imperial Roman and Anatolian like ancestry and that's why you can't model Albanians (or even Croats) with them alone.

There's no evidence southern Illyrians were much different than Croatian IA. Daunians in Apulia who are arcehologically believed to come from Albania proper were similarly northern/western.
Albos aren't that Illyrian obviously, they got loads of Thracian, Roman and Slavic admixture on top of that.

No E-V13 was found in Illyrians either, neither in Croatia, Slovenia or southern Italy. This whole thread looks like a giant cope with the fact Paleo-Balkan people were heavily diluted even before Slavic arrival and that modern Balkanites are heavily mixed, including non Slavic speakers like Greeks and Albos.

Do everyone who is reading you a favor, and quote precisely an archeological paper where it clearly states that Daunians came from Albania proper. I am very curious to read that.

 

[MaxCRO]

How do you explain that E-V13 outnumbers J2b in all Dinaric Slavs who apparently have most of their Ballkanic ancestry from assimilated Illyrians?

They don't have ancestry from assimilated Illyrians but from Vlachs. Illyrians ceased to exist long time before Slavs settled Balkans and assimilated former Roman citizens. Those peope were already diluted just like Italians. Looking at genetics plenty of east Med like admix entered Balkans during conquest and romanization of native tribes. There was also large movement of Vlachs from central and southern Balkans towards dinaric alps during Ottoman occupation. Lot of those got slavicized.

Thracians look rich in E-V13 comapred to Illyrians so that would explain it.

 

[Angela]

^^If Anatolia_BA is a good proxy for "Eastern Mediterranean" i.e. "Imperial Roman" as some people call it (which is wrong terminology imo), than the model is consistent with Oldale et al. 2021, which states that the "native" Balkan_IA did have a revival. Which was there after enriched by Slavic, (which is evident with corded ware's relation to Slavs).

Anyone who wants to discuss this just has to go back to your analysis using LaTene. You can see the "bounce back" clearly in the Iron Age sample.

 

[Jovialis]

^^when I get a chance I'm making a new one

 

[enter_tain]

There's no evidence southern Illyrians were much different than Croatian IA.

Have you read any of the stuff posted? We have samples from Illyrian Montenegro years ago. One was almost fully EEF (no CHG) in the Late Bronze Age. And another recent arrival in the Iron Age that was 50% EEF, 50% Afasenievo (which had a noticeable amount of EEF).

The southern Balkans were very heavily EEF. And this makes sense this being a Neolithic bridge between Europe and Anatolia.

 

[enter_tain]

Thracians look rich in E-V13 comapred to Illyrians so that would explain it.

Again, have you read anything in the thread, or do you just start spamming? Thracians were already 25% CHG. You add Slavic DNA to that it goes upwards of 35% CHG. Those populations can't be ancestral to a Western Balkans people like Albanians and Northern Greeks.

This actually recapitulates what we know of Greek history and anthropology. Earliest "Greeks" of heavy EEF extraction (Minoans, etc.) becoming shifted eastward by various Bronze Age newcomers (there was a large change in skeletal remains during this time) and ending up resembling modern Cretans.

Later on, various tribes from the Pindos and surrounds (who had a northwestern--probably Illyrian-like--shift) trickled in, sending the (mostly mainland) Greeks westward again. And a bit northward for good measure.

I think even Gold Standard Empuries would find this beyond reproach.

Yeah everything points to a more "western" tint for the earlier Greeks.

 

[enter_tain]

Fwiw, the settlers were from Euboea, who were Ionian speakers

"The earliest inhabitants were the Abantes, who brought a Bronze Ageculture from central Greece. In Classical literature the island had a number of names, including Macris, Doliche, Abantis, and Hellopia, the last derived from the Hellopes, who occupied the north. The centre was occupied by the Ionians and the south by the Dryopes. The Ionians excelled at navigating the sea and traded in swords; Ionian Chalcis led the colonizing movement to Italy and Sicily, while Eretria, just south of Chalcis, about 750–700 BCE led a large-scale colonization of the Thracian peninsula, later known as Chalcidice."

Yeah, Greeks have divisions amongst themselves genetically. You have the Doric-speaking areas, and the Cypriot-like/Aegean areas. Which makes sense because Anatolia was showing those CHG markers around the time the Eastern/Southeastern Balkans started showing it too.