Southern Ancestry in "Steppe"

The Nazi belief was precisely that a small Nordic elite conquers Non-Nordic locals, creates a civilization, starts intermarrying with the inferior locals - and as the superior Nordic genes become gradually diluted, the civilization begins to decline, and finally it collapses. And then another group of Nordic conquerors comes, "reinforces" Nordic admixture - and a new civilization emerges. And so on, etc.
 
Tomenable said:
Or I can just show them that they contradict themselves.

This chart shows Nganassan admixture as far as England - https://i.imgur.com/Retg3c2.jpg

And this chart does NOT show any Nganassan admixture - https://i.imgur.com/QVAHGbC.png

Despite the fact that - as you wrote - Haak made both.
Click to expand...

Than I guess your argument is not with me, but rather them. I am merely showing what they are publishing. Good luck with your crusade against the scientific community.
 
Jovialis said:
Good luck with your crusade against the scientific community.
Click to expand...

It is not a crusade against the scientific community, but against one particular chart.

You are cherry-picking papers which fit your agenda, and I merely pointed out that other studies do not support this Nganassan admix.
 
Papayaseeds said:
What language do you learn, that of your mother that is in home with you in your early years, or of your father that is out there herding, fighting or whatever. We also have a considerable amount of aDNA J1(Y -dna) showing up in the old steppes , so it was not just woman migrating north.The possibility of PIE coming from further south of the caucasus can't be disregarded yet.
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In the majority of cases languages spread paternally. Especially if the culture is patriarchal, like in case of Indo-Europeans.

We also have many examples of this in recent history - Mestizos in Latin America speak Spanish, not indigenous languages.

Papayaseeds said:
The possibility of PIE coming from further south of the caucasus can't be disregarded yet.
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Maybe not but the odds are IMHO like 90% for Steppe PIE homeland versus 10% for south of the Caucasus PIE homeland.
 
Tomenable said:
It is not a crusade against the scientific community, but against one particular chart.

You are cherry-picking papers which fit your agenda, and I merely pointed out that other studies do not support this Nganassan admix.
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Laughable, you bring G25 to refute the work of the many authors I have noted.
 
Tomenable said:
Organized military is not anything Rome-specific.

They borrowed from different cultures. Swastika was stolen from actual Aryans for example (not from Rome).



Oh really? And not after the Persian Immortals?

Anyway, according to the Nazis - Roman Empire was established by Nordic elite which subjugated Mediterranean peasants.

So even if they parroted something that the ancient Romans also did, it was not due to their admiration for "Southerners".
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Maybe so, but they would be appalled to learn the "Aryans " were closer to eastern Europeans.
 
Jovialis said:
Laughable, you bring G25 to refute the work of the many authors I have noted.
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G25 is a very reliable tool, but I bring not only G25. I can even bring another study that you posted lately:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-07483-5/figures/2

As you can see according to this study there is no any Nganassan admixture in Lithuanians, French, etc.:

GYDaWbX.png


Actually I would be happy if Nganassan admixture in Lithuanians was real because it could easily explain their high % of N1c.

But since they most likely don't have any Nganassan, I assume that their N1c comes from a source that was European autosomally (probably because they had lived in Europe - to the west of the Ural Mountains - for several thousands of years before migrating to present-day Lithuania).

In my opinion people with N1c-L708 entered Europe probably already 7500 years ago (this is the TMRCA age of this clade).
 
Tomenable said:
Or I can just show them that they contradict themselves.
This chart shows Nganassan admixture as far as England - https://i.imgur.com/Retg3c2.jpg
And this chart does NOT show any Nganassan admixture - https://i.imgur.com/QVAHGbC.png
Despite the fact that - as you wrote - Haak made both.
Click to expand...
That's because one is from 2015 [the bottom one I posted] while the other is from a later paper in 2019 both with Haak. I will just chalk that up to you being mistaken, which is fine. I make mistakes too sometimes. Just an aside, I actually don't dislike you.
 
^^^
"Ancient Fennoscandian genomes reveal origin and spread of Siberian ancestry in Europe" is a 2018 paper and shows no Nganassan ancestry in Lithuania or further west. I know, I know - your next response will be that one year difference is a big deal and therefore the 2019 paper should be trusted, not the 2018 one (even though you posted both of these papers here). I can find such papers which do not show aby Nganassan admixture to the west of Estonia also from 2019, 2020, 2021 and even 2022 but why should I waste my time to look for multiple papers when using G25 is less time-consuming? David made G25 to save our time and make life easier, duh...
 
Anyway this thread is about the origin and spread of PIE language, while Nganassan ancestry is only relevant in discussions about the spread of Uralic languages, so I suggest to stop this off-topic or move it to another thread.
 
Jovialis said:
I actually do not understand what you mean here. ACTUAL nazis were a mix of EHG, CHG WHG, and Anatolian_N. Infact, as I pointed out previously, Western Europeans, like English and French, who were "Ayrans", were predominantly Anatolian_N. The place in European where Anatolian_N is small component is Eastern European, and the Nazis wanted to exterminate them
Anyway, I think it is dumb, as were the Nazis. I am not attacking you.
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The NAZI Aryan theory was based on weird occult theories, especially framed by Herman Wirth:

Wirth claimed that civilization is a curse that only a simpler way of life, as documented in archaeological findings and historical records, could lift. He has been criticized for romantic nationalism and Germanomania.[6] He was also criticized by German scholars of his time, like Bolko von Richthofen, Gerhard Gloege, Arthur Hübner and Karl Hermann Jacob-Friesen [de], for "gullibly refusing to accept" the evidence that proved Ura Linda chronicle (a 6th–1st century BC chronicle of a Frisian family that he translated) a forgery.[7]


Wirth placed the origins of European civilization on the mythological island of Atlantis, which he thought had been located in the North Atlantic, connecting North America and Europe. Its inhabitants supposedly were pure Aryans, influencing the cultures not just of Europeans but also of the natives of North America and the wider "Old World" beyond Europe. According to Wirth, these Atlanteans worshipped a single deity whose aspect changed with the seasons and its son, the Heilsbringer. In their religion, priestesses played a key role. Wirth thought that both the Jewish and the Christian faith were perversions of this original religion. He considered himself a symbologist and thought the Germanic people to be direct descendants of these inhabitants of Atlantis. Researching the Germanic culture thus was a way of reconstructing the original culture of the ancients. All of this research was considered explicitly political as well as religious.[1]
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IMO all esoteric bullshit. Nevertheless it caused for example the holocaust.

This 'Aryan type' was connected to the old classifiers Deniker, Eickstedt...Coon you name it with a 'Nordid' phenotype, blond, light pigmented dolio's. Those classifiers had mostly a racial biased agenda....

I guess Northwest Europeans are basically (muted) Bell Beakers. They had their cradle in the Rhine Delta, and spread all over the NW European place the Isles included. They were more than 50% Steppe and with a considerable amount of EEF and HG. Probably due to the mixture of Single Grave People that went about 2850 BC from central Europe to the North Sea and Rhine Delta were they met and mixed with the Funnelbeakers/ Michelsberg people. They were in some regions pretty high in HG (see Blatterhöhle MN). Later on migrations probably enhanced the neolithic factor somewhat in some regions of NW Europe.

By the way those BB were not conform the 'Aryan' ideal type; they were brachycephalic and steephead (and like the Steppe types as a whole not per se blond blue eyed). Like some of their heirs that lived from Northern Germany/ North Dutch to Norway, but they didn't fit in the 'desired' Aryan picture of the racial classifiers.

Ok and about the claim of the Nazi's with regard to the Roman heritage. It's indeed like you said, they had a fascination for empires. And don't forget already Charles the Great claimed to Roman heritage already. Important Frankish/Rhineland cities like Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium (aka Cologne) and Aquae Granni (aka Aachen) Mogontiacum (aka Mainz) had a Roman blueprint. That's way they claimed "das dritte Reich".
 
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Northener,

I'm curious what do you think about these results for Germanic populations in my G25 calculator?:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/42412-Try-my-new-G25-calculator

Here is how populations score with all of the SOURCE populations:

Target: Dutch
Distance: 4.0912% / 0.04091235
47.2 West_Eurasian:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
38.2 West_Eurasian:TUR_Barcin_N
14.6 West_Eurasian:WHG_I1875

Target: Danish
Distance: 4.3276% / 0.04327583
47.0 West_Eurasian:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
35.4 West_Eurasian:TUR_Barcin_N
14.4 West_Eurasian:WHG_I1875
3.2 West_Eurasian:UKR_N

Now the interesting part - Swedes:

Target: Swedish
Distance: 4.1414% / 0.04141443
39.0 West_Eurasian:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
34.2 West_Eurasian:TUR_Barcin_N
20.0 West_Eurasian:UKR_N (!)
6.8 West_Eurasian:WHG_I1875

^^^ And after removing UKR_Meso/Neo from the reference populations, this is what they score:

Target: Swedish
Distance: 4.1950% / 0.04195033
44.0 West_Eurasian:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
33.8 West_Eurasian:TUR_Barcin_N
12.2 West_Eurasian:WHG_I1875
10.0 West_Eurasian:NOR_N_HG_Steigen

So UKR_Meso/Neo gets replaced by Steigen hunter-gatherer, as well as by some extra % of Yamnaya.

For me it works the same way. My results with UKR_Meso/Neo:

Target: Tomenable_scaled
Distance: 5.0523% / 0.05052260
37.4 West_Eurasian:TUR_Barcin_N
33.2 West_Eurasian:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
17.2 West_Eurasian:UKR_Meso
12.2 West_Eurasian:UKR_N

And after removing UKR_Meso/Neo:

Target: Tomenable_scaled
Distance: 5.2026% / 0.05202586
37.6 West_Eurasian:TUR_Barcin_N
37.6 West_Eurasian:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
20.8 West_Eurasian:NOR_N_HG_Steigen
4.0 West_Eurasian:Baltic_LVA_HG_I4432

^^^
Now if I remove also Steigen, this is what happens:

Target: Swedish
Distance: 4.2095% / 0.04209456
45.4 West_Eurasian:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
33.8 West_Eurasian:TUR_Barcin_N
8.6 West_Eurasian:WHG_I1875
8.4 West_Eurasian:Baltic_LVA_HG_I4432
3.8 West_Eurasian:NOR_Meso

Me:

Target: Tomenable_scaled
Distance: 5.2588% / 0.05258826
41.4 West_Eurasian:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
36.8 West_Eurasian:TUR_Barcin_N
11.2 West_Eurasian:NOR_Meso
10.6 West_Eurasian:Baltic_LVA_HG_I4432

=====

Now if I remove also NOR_Meso, this is what happens:

Target: Swedish
Distance: 4.2122% / 0.04212168
46.4 West_Eurasian:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
32.4 West_Eurasian:TUR_Barcin_N
13.6 West_Eurasian:Baltic_LVA_HG_I4432
6.0 West_Eurasian:WHG_I1875
1.6 West_Eurasian:TUR_Pinarbasi_HG_ZBC_IPB001

Me:

Target: Tomenable_scaled
Distance: 5.2818% / 0.05281779
44.0 West_Eurasian:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
36.6 West_Eurasian:TUR_Barcin_N
16.6 West_Eurasian:Baltic_LVA_HG_I4432
2.8 West_Eurasian:RUS_Karelia_HG

And after removing also both LVA_HG_I4432 and Karelia_EHG - this happens:

Target: Swedish
Distance: 4.2391% / 0.04239123
47.4 West_Eurasian:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
31.8 West_Eurasian:TUR_Barcin_N
16.4 West_Eurasian:WHG_I1875
3.2 West_Eurasian:RUS_Sidelkino_HG
1.2 West_Eurasian:TUR_Pinarbasi_HG_ZBC_IPB001

Target: Tomenable_scaled
Distance: 5.3684% / 0.05368389
44.6 West_Eurasian:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
36.0 West_Eurasian:TUR_Barcin_N
9.2 West_Eurasian:POL_BKG_N_o1_N22
9.2 West_Eurasian:SWE_Meso_ble008
1.0 West_Eurasian:RUS_Veretye_Meso_PES001

And finally after removing SWE_Meso_ble008 (SHG sample):

Target: Swedish
Distance: 4.2391% / 0.04239123
47.4 West_Eurasian:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
31.8 West_Eurasian:TUR_Barcin_N
16.4 West_Eurasian:WHG_I1875
3.2 West_Eurasian:RUS_Sidelkino_HG
1.2 West_Eurasian:TUR_Pinarbasi_HG_ZBC_IPB001

Target: Tomenable_scaled
Distance: 5.3740% / 0.05373982
44.8 West_Eurasian:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
35.8 West_Eurasian:TUR_Barcin_N
13.6 West_Eurasian:POL_BKG_N_o1_N22
5.8 West_Eurasian:RUS_Veretye_Meso_PES001

PES001 is also EHG (like Karelia) so it seems that I need have some extra EHG, above the level of EHG that Steppe people brought.

By the way:

Jovialis take note, I have more Barcin_N than the Swedes & Danes despite being Slavic (and you claimed Slavs have the lowest EEF).
 
The lowest Barcin_N levels in Europe are typical for Germanic Scandinavians, not for Slavs as Jovialis claimed.

Balts, Estonians and Finns probably have similar levels of EEF as Scandinavians or slightly lower - I will check.
 
POL_BKG_N_o1_N22 which appeared in my results above is a hunter-gatherer from Poland dated to 4600-4000 BC. At that time farmers co-existed with HGs in central Poland - farmers began to settle in Poland ca. 5500-5000 BC and gradually occupied most of Poland's territory until 3000 BC, when the last pockets of HGs still existed. Around the same time - ca. 3000 BC - Indo-European groups started coming to Poland from the Steppe. By ca. 2500 BC the culture of Neolithic farmers - GAC - disappeared. So the absorption of farmers by IEs was faster (~500 years) than the absorption of HGs by farmers had been before that (which lasted >2000 years - and even after that pockets of HGs still existed).


N22 had blue eyes and darkish skin (similar as among the WHG in western Europe) as his pigmentation SNPs suggest.
 
BTW, Poles have a broad range of Barcin_N admix which correlates with geography, a south-north pattern.

Southern Poles can score up to 40% Barcin_N and Northern Poles can score even as low as 20% Barcin_N.

I score around 35% as you can see, and I'm from the middle.
 
And last but not least with Baltic HG:


Blows WHG away. It's all the 'game' between WHG/EHG/SHG.....
 
Northener said:
I think the different HG's are close.
Click to expand...

There is a hunter-gatherer continuum between EHG and WHG:

(UKR_Meso and UKR_Neo plot quite close to SHG populations)

fB2SAfg.png
 
Jovialis said:
Farmer ancestry according to David Reich:
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"Estimated by genome-wide data 2015" map makes more sense than the other one.

However it is still not perfect, for example AFAIK the Irish having more EEF than the English has been debunked since 2015.

But Southern England (Cornwall too) indeed has more of EEF than Northern England.
 
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