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Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

but according to other agencies,not even 20% of the Russians agree with the implication of Putin in Eastern Ukraine.

It makes sense because it is the intention to put Putin under internal pressure by slaughtering east Ukrainians. Russians demand from Putin to save these people. The more he hesitates, the more he get's questioned by Russians, and types like Shirinovsky and nationalists gain momentum. One of Putin's greatest threat are the russian neo nazis. They already join the Ukrainian side as mercenaries.

But even if Putin would have had high support in Russia,the conflict in Ukraine and the embargo helped Putin to get more support,from average Russian.
Considering that US and EU would not have done any kind of embargo,how could have Putin justify in front of his people the bad economic situation in which Russia is?
Because mostly the bad economic situation in Russia is happening because 80% of the money that are incoming to Russian state are from selling oil and some natural gas,but mostly oil.

That is not correct. Not 80% but 40% of the money comes from oil and gas, and even this figure was based on 100$ oil price. Since the price has halved, the current share of oil and gas makes about 33%, if I did the math right.
 
Rebels pushing hard before seasfire:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/14/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSKBN0LH14T20150214
Some of them admitted having "Russia guests" fighting alongside.





Hopefully this new peace agreement will have long lasting effects.
In my opinion, Ukrainians should give these territory to Russia. Actually, give rebel held territory full independence, but whether they want to belong to Russia is a different question.
This would take away a trump card from Putin's hand. It would consolidate more pro Western views, politics and alliances for Ukraine, make Ukraine more united.

Now that was so predictable. Rebels are the "bad guys", say the "good guys". It is the mere purpose of these Minsk agreements to blame the Rebels/Putin that they violated it. This is so because there is no neutral party (OSCE, UN, anyone?) supervising these kinds of "agreements". It's a farce, a theatre for Merkel. And why should I actually believe these oligarchic "agencies" like Reuters yet one inch. Such "news" are not worth of any further comment.
 
I heard today that Georgia wants in again. I mean to join Nato. If Russia keeps bullying and alienating her neighbours, pretty soon will be surrounded completely by Nato countries, except China and maybe Belarus.
Way to go Putin!

That's really makes a lot of sense, logically. (sorry for my sarcasm)
 
[video]http://tune.pk/video/5867054/ukraine-parliament-two-mps-fist-fight-over-bill[/video]
 
Another clue pointing to deep involvement of Russia in this crises are the peace talks. To reach some sort of agreement nobody talks to rebels but meets Putin. What kind of leverage would he had if he wasn't helping rebels in big way. Putin says, rebels do. It doesn't make sense, if there were no Russian troops and equipment in Donbass.

No offense Le Brok, but you are obsessed with Putin, due to the demonization campaign going on currently (Kissinger. "The demonization of Putin is no strategy but proves tha lack of a strategy."). This is a comic-style "good guy" vs. "bad guy" thinking, far from reality. This makes you blind for the obvious: If you think Putin represents the Rebels (it is Poroshenko who refuses to talk to the rebels, again please research the facts), whom are Merkel, Hollande and Washington representing then?
 
Why is Nato not mendling in Finland?

It does:
"According to Katainen, the overwhelming opposition to the NATO membership by the Finnish public is "an insufficient reason" to reject NATO membership."

The American Conservative:
"Don’t Try Bringing Sweden and Finland into NATO"

Russian response:
"Finland will lose ‘sovereignty’ if joins NATO - Putin"


Why isn't it pure Ukrainian choice?

Because it is NATO's responsibility to respect other interests too and not behaving like being alone in the world. But they stir trouble and use it as a means to get new members. It's like the pyromaniac who then offers his service as a firefighter. A very successful business model.

You don't believe that Ukrainians are smart enough to make their own decisions?

Again, when were Ukrainians allowed to make this decision?
And why do you not accept Crimeans and Donbassians decisions then?
Actually it was only Russia (sic!) who asked Crimeans about their opinion. This was possible because 60000 russian soldiers were aleady stationed there since two centuries and Crimea was highly autonomous and clearly demarcated already. Unfortunately, regulated Referendum in Donbass was not possible because there were no Russian troops, boundaries are not clear, and population is more mixed. They had to improvise one by their own, asking Russia for help, but Putin refused, because else Russia would be once more the "aggressor".

Why do you think that Ukrainians need to be controlled by a foreign power? It really borders with conspiracy theory. Everything needs to be controlled.

Where did I say that again? To the contrary, they should not be controlled by a foreign power, they should stay neutral.

Don't you see that this type of Russian thinking of controlling everything is pushing other countries away from Russia. It is scary to have a control freak as a friend.

This is a wrong conclusion due to wrong assumptions.
 
I wasn't convincing myself. My position is well known in many posts here. I listed the evidence for you.
In case you missed it, yes Russia actively supports rebels with troops and equipment. So yes, they invaded Ukraine.

Support or invasion? In the latter case the war would be decided within 42 hours.
I personally would fully support a russian intervention in terms of a peace force in order to stop the chaos.

Did you miss that Russian troops are already, and not hiding, in Cinema, a part of Ukraine? I'm sure you will excuse this behaviour too.

So what? 60000 regular russian soldiers were already stationed there since long time in tight daily collaboration with the Crimean government.

Russian troops build up "coincidentally" coincides with Russian rebel fighters area. Please, be more objective. Isn't it handy to have troops there to send them into rebel area any time there is a need?

I'll be more clear: There is no evidence for regular russian troops.

"OSCE Head Confirms No Russian Troops in Donbas"
I hope OSCE can remain neutral in future given the public pressure and flood of printed $$$.

"Ukrainian Government: “No Russian Troops Are Fighting Against Us”"

Poroshenko claimed already 20 or 30 times that again and again troops are invading (at this moment again), and once he claimed they smashed 9000 troops (don't remember exactly, but that's not the point).
But for some reason there are still no photos or footages, not even of the smashed tanks. Now in Munich he presented russian passports as "best proof" of regular troops. Since regular soldiers in most countries like Russia have to exchange their passport with an identification tag, Poroshenko most likely has no evidence of regular russian army in Ukraine.

I hope, when the dust settles in the future and we know the truth from documents, you will bravely come back to this thread and state how wrong you were. ;)

"Truth documents" will be written by the winners. If they are lying right now, they will keep lying in future if they win.
 
@ElHorsto,LeBrok:
Finland and Sweden are already in the Nordic Council,with Norway,Denmark,Iceland.
I do not know too much about Nordic Council,but I know its countries do not agree with the usage of atomic weapons.
Also,Finland and Sweden have very good relations with Islamic states so maybe this is the main reason for which Sweden and Finland do not want to join NATO.
 
The Nato is not in Ukraine yet, not even close, and Crimea and East Russia is invaded by Putin. Keeping up the promise? In case you missed one detail, Nato membership is voluntary, unlike Warsaw pact was. It is up to two sides to agree upon this relationship. It is legal to join Nato. Invading another country is not.

Making an undemocratic coup abroad before that "invasion" is even less legal. This was the trigger.

Why Russia don't want to join Nato or EU, be a friend and a big helpful brother instead?

It is not true that Russia didn't want to join NATO.

First Yeltsin wanted to join NATO.
Here what US and Germany replied 1994:
"Mr. Ruhe asserted that Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic and Slovakia deserved to become members of NATO and the European Union because unlike Russia, "they belong to the European system and they were artificially separated from it.""
A very revealing quote if you ask me.

Later, also Putin wanted:
""Why not? Why not?" Putin said when asked by BBC interviewer David Frost about Russian membership. "I do not rule out such a possibility ... in the case that Russia's interests will be reckoned with, if it will be an equal partner. "

And yet with such resources and big population it is 3 trillion dollar economy. EU is 16, US 15, China 13, Japan 5, Germany 4. Russians considered themselves equal if not stronger than US. It must really hurt russian proud now, isn't it? On grounds of these hurt feelings, Putin was elected. He's job is to restore Russian pride.

So what? Russias economy is of the size of Italy, I know. Of course it is not the economy which attracts. To the contrary, it is the still relatively under-developed economy which is attractive.

What I'm saying is that the low debt, the huge saving and unexploited wealth is proving Russias S&P credit rating to be a farce. S&P were the ones who declared american junk mortgages as AAA premium quality, and stupid european banks bought them en masse, with the known consequences. So much for the "credibility" of ratings coming from Wall Street.

Now I tell you something, in case you believe I'm a Russian. I'm not, I'm a German, and as such I closely followed the development of German-Russian relations for a long time.
Before agent Merkel came to power in 2005, Russian-German relations where flourishing. Many initiatives came to existence, industry was (and still is) excited by the possibilities in Russia. Putin was actively inviting them, doing his best to provide stabile environment etc. This is attested by german industry and even the media back then. Ex-chancellor Schröder and Putin are still friends today. This cooperation was deliberately pro-western from Putin's perspective, and pro-Russian from European perspective. The aged and indebted economies of Western europe could enjoy decades of prosperity to come. Putin was extremely pro-European and even pro EU. He wanted to be like Peter the Great who tried to modernize and westernize Russia.

But then something happened: agent Merkel came to power. The new government of hers stopped these activities one-by-one, except the trades. Media about Russia was like exchanged. The trades have been stopped recently due to the Ukrainie events. 300000 jobs are threatened now in Germany because of the sanctions, and many are already gone. When Yanukovich agreed to the EU treaty in 2012, Merkel government suddenly refused and came-up with an ultimatum to free Timoshenko first. Why that? Then came Pussy Riot, LGBT. All fabricated nonsense to poison even the cultural approaches with Russia. People like Dugin in-turn got more influence, yet Dugin was expelled from his university, so Putin-government still seems to be not so Duginist. Putin repeated his Europe-cooperation offer several times, for instance in 2010 he proposed the Lissabon-Wladivostok space. Merkel changed the tracks from peaceful cooperation to confrontation. This confrontation will predictabley strenghten hard-liners on both sides.

I'm sorry that I do not intend to elaborate here in this forum why I think this happened, but some might still guess the idea.

To bad he doesn't know any other way but the KGB way, lie, deceive and bully around.

When will you finally stop repeating this nonsense all over again? It will not gain truth by repetition.

You better start with Soviet Union. Sins of Russia were not counseled with fall of Soviet Union. Nobody even heard "I'm sorry" to start a new friendship with". I guess in your school you were not taught about excesses of Soviet Union, therefore it should be brought to your attention that what was done still hurts many, but Russia is acting innocent and oblivious, and never faced the past.

Why should we start with Soviet Union now suddenly? No more Putin to blame?

Note that Russians suffered like other soviet peoples from soviet rule, and much more so than other east europeans, and the main wrongdoer was Stalin, an ethnic Georgian. Should Georgia apologize? I say no.
Then after Gorbachov came the Yeltsin era, with third-world-style poverty, ill-minded western "advisors", famine, financial collapse,... I think Russians already paid quite a price.

EDIT: Also note that Ukrainians should be thankful for the gift from Lenin who attached the previously russian Donbass to Ukraine republic. Also Crimea was a gift to Ukraine from soviet dictator Khrushchev. Ukraine is so big today because of Soviet policy. Now Ukraine wants to keep that land, but without it's people. Ukraine has something to excuse for in future.

This is all "balkanic" tit-for-tat reasoning leading to chaos.

Exactly what bully would say to a "friend". You still act surprised that countries act as Russophobes? Would you say to your wife or a friend "I could smash your face if I really wanted to, but I won't", and expect understanding and friendship?

For god sake, just join the world. Nobody wants to attack and conquer you. Don't be psychotic. Make friends.

You think I'm Russian? LOL, I think you'd better make a few more trips to Europe to learn other opinions dude.
 
Some people here do not remember that actually USSR was created by the decisions of US and Great Britain leaders,after they greatly helped USSR to win in World War 2.
They decided to put those independent states under the leadership of USSR.
So is actually leaders of US and Great Britain that gave to USSR lots of independent states,including Baltic States.
Why they have done this,I have no idea,but to come now and blame the Russians and tell that they occupied those countries,like Baltic Countries,Georgia and so on is just lol mode.
USSR army after WW2,was lacking equipment and was weakened while US had a great army and very good armament,including best bombers in the world and atomic bombs.
 
It makes sense because it is the intention to put Putin under internal pressure by slaughtering east Ukrainians. Russians demand from Putin to save these people. The more he hesitates, the more he get's questioned by Russians, and types like Shirinovsky and nationalists gain momentum. One of Putin's greatest threat are the russian neo nazis. They already join the Ukrainian side as mercenaries.
.
Nazis, as per definition, put their country above everything else, degrading or hating other nationalities at the same time. What kind of russian Nazis would go to another country, never mind Ukraine who "slotters" ethnic Russians, and fight for foreigners?! Perhaps you didn't assorted these Russian mercenaries into a correct political group?
 
Even Kyiv Post complained that a Russian speaker citizen of Kiev (he is Western Ukrainian,not Russian ethnic) was jailed for treason ,after telling that he is not going to join Ukraine army to be sent to kill his brothers.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyi...sts-fall-prey-to-hyper-patriotism-380572.html
What is happening,US leaders think they can buy or fear anyone,to do what they want?
I highly do not care about US army leaders,if Romanian leaders will want to force me to go in the army,to fight against pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine,I am not going,I would rather go in jail.
My paternal grand father refused to go in WW2 to fight against USSR because he considered that to be unhuman war.
And he was not jailed for that,because he was skilled at constructions,he was kept to work for civilan constructions.
So NATO admirers should know that not all people can be feared or bought,that is the thing.
EDIT:
The news on a Japannese news agency:
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...sts-journalist-call-dodge-draft/#.VOJrOzWli1E
40% of the Ukrainians from Ivano-Frankivsk,a Western Ukraine area,so they are pro-EU,left to not join Ukraine army.
 
No offense Le Brok, but you are obsessed with Putin, due to the demonization campaign going on currently (Kissinger. "The demonization of Putin is no strategy but proves tha lack of a strategy."). This is a comic-style "good guy" vs. "bad guy" thinking, far from reality. This makes you blind for the obvious: If you think Putin represents the Rebels (it is Poroshenko who refuses to talk to the rebels, again please research the facts), whom are Merkel, Hollande and Washington representing then?
Love to Putin blinds you completely. When Europe is shaking on a doorstep of WW3, Putin is commenting how fast he can finish Ukraine. That's the psychology of a leader who cares?
 
You are having it completely backward. You can't even realize that nations can be independent and make their own choices. You strike me as someone who grew up in totalitarian system, or is strong on conspiracy theory, where everything is controlled from the top down, and you can't imagine alternative. To you Finns can't have a discussion about Nato, because for you it is a proof that someone is pushing an agenda onto them. To you Finns are incapable of having an independent intelligent thought about Nato. They must be some sort of subspecies to you. Likewise any article abroad about Finns means that this is the voice of foreign propagandist influencing Finn's thinking. Dude, this is just crazy.

Because it is NATO's responsibility to respect other interests too and not behaving like being alone in the world. But they stir trouble and use it as a means to get new members. It's like the pyromaniac who then offers his service as a firefighter. A very successful business model.
Interesting, there are no reports about Nato troops in Ukraine, instead planty proofs about Russian troops there. But for you it doesn't matter, Nato is the aggressor, lol. Crazy stuff again.

Again, when were Ukrainians allowed to make this decision?
And why do you not accept Crimeans and Donbassians decisions then?
Actually it was only Russia (sic!) who asked Crimeans about their opinion. This was possible because 60000 russian soldiers were aleady stationed there since two centuries and Crimea
Russian troops can secure independent and legit referendum!? Do you know what you are saying???!!! Lol, the farce referendum where 97% chosen to belong to Russia!
 
Support or invasion? In the latter case the war would be decided within 42 hours.
I personally would fully support a russian intervention in terms of a peace force in order to stop the chaos.
Russian peace mission?! Insanity. Never heard of. They are so inexperienced in peacekeeping. On other hand they have excellent reputation in invasions and occupations.


So what? 60000 regular russian soldiers were already stationed there since long time in tight daily collaboration with the Crimean government.
What would Putin do if Crimeans would vote to stay independent? I'm sure he would withdraw Russian troops, lol.


I'll be more clear: There is no evidence for regular russian troops.
Thanks for your professional opinion. Even if I do believe you, russian tanks are rolling around Donbass killing Ukrainians.

"OSCE Head Confirms No Russian Troops in Donbas"
I hope OSCE can remain neutral in future given the public pressure and flood of printed $$$.
As you know, all the western mass media are controlled by Nato. Let's believe only Russian independent newspapers.



Poroshenko claimed already 20 or 30 times that again and again troops are invading (at this moment again), and once he claimed they smashed 9000 troops (don't remember exactly, but that's not the point).
But for some reason there are still no photos or footages, not even of the smashed tanks. Now in Munich he presented russian passports as "best proof" of regular troops. Since regular soldiers in most countries like Russia have to exchange their passport with an identification tag, Poroshenko most likely has no evidence of regular russian army in Ukraine.
How do you recognize russian regular soldier from the rebels? How do you recognize Russian/rebel tank from Ukrainian. You are not really suggesting that russian troops and tanks will be with official insignia and uniforms sent to Ukraine, if Putin officially denise this, do you?



"Truth documents" will be written by the winners. If they are lying right now, they will keep lying in future if they win.
That's the job of journalists to keep government honest. However it is impossible, and never was in Russia, especially after the recent legislation about "Protecting honor of Russian history" or something like that, can't remember exactly. Journalists and historians can be prosecuted, and I'm sure are, for dishonoring Russia and its history, when writing their lies.
 
.

I'm sorry that I do not intend to elaborate here in this forum why I think this happened, but some might still guess the idea.
When will you finally stop repeating this nonsense all over again? It will not gain truth by repetition.
Why should we start with Soviet Union now suddenly? No more Putin to blame?
Your beloved Putin is the richest guy in the world. All stolen money from Russian people.
Bill Browder helped Putin to uncover many oligarchs who were stealing money from their companies. He was Putin's hero, till he uncovered that Putin is doing exactly the same. He's russian lawyer was killed and he was kicked out of Russia as an enemy of state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Browder
http://www.spiegel.de/international...s-on-the-putin-regime-in-russia-a-845132.html
http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2...says-russias-once-largest-foreigner-investor/

On Putin’s networth: “I believe that it's $200 billion. After 14 years in power of Russia, and the amount of money that the country has made, and the amount of money that hasn't been spent on schools and roads and hospitals and so on, all that money is in property, bank - Swiss bank accounts, shares, hedge funds, managed for Putin and his cronies.”
Hair rising stories from Russia, aching to God Father and spy movies.


You think I'm Russian?
No I don't, it was directed towards Russia no you personally. Feel free to answer the question though: "Would you say to your wife or a friend "I could smash your face if I really wanted to, but I won't", and expect understanding and friendship?
Many germans are russophiles. Perhaps abused wife syndrome. Russia kicked Germans but, so it must be most powerful and deserves respect and love. No matter how Russia behaves you will forgive and forget.
I'm not sure how you can claim any objectivity on this subject?
 
You are having it completely backward. You can't even realize that nations can be independent and make their own choices.
I've seen in my country how choice of many nations was ignored by UN, EU and NATO in order to, guess what? Cause a war. And more time passes by, more people are certain of that here in the region.

You strike me as someone who grew up in totalitarian system, or is strong on conspiracy theory, where everything is controlled from the top down, and you can't imagine alternative. To you Finns can't have a discussion about Nato, because for you it is a proof that someone is pushing an agenda onto them. To you Finns are incapable of having an independent intelligent thought about Nato. They must be some sort of subspecies to you. Likewise any article abroad about Finns means that this is the voice of foreign propagandist influencing Finn's thinking. Dude, this is just crazy.

Ok, so for reciprocity sake, they can also have a discussion about joining New Warsaw Pact? Some sort of pact that will make them integrate with Russia, and live in the same country under new name, totally free from NATO? I guess it would be totally fair to give Putin agents 2h every evening on a national TV, to try to explain to Finns how their lives can get better if they join Russia? If they are not subspecies, they will have more than enough intelligence to make their own decision.

Interesting, there are no reports about Nato troops in Ukraine, instead planty proofs about Russian troops there. But for you it doesn't matter, Nato is the aggressor, lol. Crazy stuff again.
We all know that Ukrainian president and government are NATO agents, and that legit government was overthrown with the money NATO pumped into new age terrorist cells in Ukraine. I gave you the names of the people involved. What more do you want? A video in which they admit they've received money from CIA to organize a coup in Kiev?
 
Ukraine wants to play open cards and calls for UN and EU peacekeepers to be deployed along the lines to separate fighting forces. Putin quickly shoots down this idea. Well, who has the hidden agenda in this war? International peacekeepers would really screwed up Putin's plans for further aggression, destabilization of Ukraine and expansion of Russian controlled territory.
Wouldn't rebels want international peacekeepers for their protection against the "genocidal" Ukrainians? Ukrainian forces would be cut out from rebels, and rebels could declare autonomy or even independance. Ukraine is not in the position to stop them now, and would be even less so if peacekeepers are in the way.
I think it is so obvious now who was and is the aggressor.
https://jhaines6.wordpress.com/2015...ussia-slams-ukraine-idea-for-eu-peacekeepers/
 
Ok, so for reciprocity sake, they can also have a discussion about joining New Warsaw Pact? Some sort of pact that will make them integrate with Russia, and live in the same country under new name, totally free from NATO? I guess it would be totally fair to give Putin agents 2h every evening on a national TV, to try to explain to Finns how their lives can get better if they join Russia? If they are not subspecies, they will have more than enough intelligence to make their own decision.
Exactly my point. Let them do their own choices. But when they do, just accept it and don't try to make more of it than it is, their choice. Unfortunately, when Finns, Ukrainians and many others make a choice that you don't like, people like you calls them "slaves and agents of foreign control or even a nazi".
Dude, this is how freedom and democracy works. People make their own choices.

We all know that Ukrainian president and government are NATO agents
And by "We" you mean all the pro Putin conspiracy theorists? I agree.

Do you agree that the riches man on this planet, Vladimir Putin, should share his billions with his "brothers and sisters Russians"?
 
Exactly my point. Let them do their own choices. But when they do, just accept it and don't try to make more of it than it is, their choice. Unfortunately, when Finns, Ukrainians and many others make a choice that you don't like, people like you calls them "slaves and agents of foreign control or even a nazi".
Dude, this is how freedom and democracy works. People make their own choices.

I have a couple of first hand experiences on how CIA makes choice for the people and I've learned to recognize it ;)


And by "We" you mean all the pro Putin conspiracy theorists? I agree.
No, I meant the people who know how to use their brains and don't watch TV.

Do you agree that the riches man on this planet, Vladimir Putin, should share his billions with his "brothers and sisters Russians"?
Russian people were doing quite well under Putin, until CIA decided to put an end to that. So, one problem at the time. First we deal with the war and NATO plunderers, and then we'll deal with internal affairs. If your family house was under attack by skinheads, I wouldn't be the one trying to divert the attention of police by pointing out that you've taken money from your wife's account to pay for the stripper.
 
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