Research about R1b-U152: probably Roman (and italic) origin, not Gallic

[Dorianfinder]

Hi

I couldn't find PF4363 in the SNP advance orders, do you know if it is labelled something else on FTDNA?

Thanks

My apologies, the PF4363 SNP is only available from the Geno 2.0 test. Thank-you Maciamo for correcting me, I am human.

 

[Britanicus]

Yes, apparently it is only through GENO. The thought at u 152 admin is that my PF4363 MAY be a clan marker. My two closest matches are taking the test also. So, under u 152, PF4363 may be a clan marker. This would be something, for sure.
Both my matches probably occurred within 12 generations. But the question is, where is the origin point for u 152 ? And then, what clan would that signify ? I have strong hints from Geno, DNA Tribes etc, of links to Tuscany and the Aegaen/ Thrace, with Romania being very strong. I am an Englishman... so how did my ancestor get into Britain ?

Spartacus, of course, was a "Celtic" Thracian Gladiator, and probably u152.
Got to dig up the dead I think, once Ydna on ancient remains gets somewhere. Until then, we are only guessing.
The admin of our project, himself a u152 * previously, is a Hungarian I THINK of Romanian descent... but is not PF4363.

Of course, my post was due to the idea that this DNA spread about through the movements of the Roman Legions. It is found in China to Britain, pretty well following the limits of the Roman Empire. This is my present thought , which changes often
Rich

 

[Taranis]

Hmm. Interesting thread revival.

I'm still not convinced that U152 is of "Roman" origin: more specifically, I do not think that it is associated in any way with the Italic tribes of pre-Roman Italy. The reason for this is that the diversity for U152 (especially the distribution of it's main subclades L2, Z36 and Z56) is greater north of the Alps than south of it. I'm also under the impression that there is more diversity of U152 in Britain than in Italy.

I mean sure, much of U152's distribution can probably be explained by movements inside the Roman Empire, especially places like North Africa. But with Britain, my money is more though on Iron Age tribes than the Roman legionaires or Sarmatians...

 

[MOESAN]

Yes, apparently it is only through GENO. The thought at u 152 admin is that my PF4363 MAY be a clan marker. My two closest matches are taking the test also. So, under u 152, PF4363 may be a clan marker. This would be something, for sure.
Both my matches probably occurred within 12 generations. But the question is, where is the origin point for u 152 ? And then, what clan would that signify ? I have strong hints from Geno, DNA Tribes etc, of links to Tuscany and the Aegaen/ Thrace, with Romania being very strong. I am an Englishman... so how did my ancestor get into Britain ?

Spartacus, of course, was a "Celtic" Thracian Gladiator, and probably u152.
Got to dig up the dead I think, once Ydna on ancient remains gets somewhere. Until then, we are only guessing.
The admin of our project, himself a u152 * previously, is a Hungarian I THINK of Romanian descent... but is not PF4363.

Of course, my post was due to the idea that this DNA spread about through the movements of the Roman Legions. It is found in China to Britain, pretty well following the limits of the Roman Empire. This is my present thought , which changes often
Rich

Sincerely, Y-R1b-U152 has very few chances to be of Romanian origin: and "romanian" is a confusing definition here: ethnic? geographic? for we know at this point U152 as the majority of occidental Y-R1bs was born around the Switzerland Alps or maybe before being pushed forwards in Austria, when, nobody is sure of a precise date, maybe before the definitive ruprure between celtic and italic?
- Sarmatians, always according to our present knowledge, had more chances to be of Y-R1a + some north Caucasus Y-G2a + some possible Y-I2a1 and Y-J2a without speek about some other "asian" HGs picked here and there, as Y-Q or Y-T and even Y-O or Y-N (I don't speek yet about some incorporated other carpathian "neolithical" HGs

 

[Finalise]

Yes y-chromosome frequncies associated with linguistic families. Good job guys. Amazing proof you have here. Nothing stupid about these types of assumptions.

Do you people not realize that even the Indo-Europeans were not uniform to begin with considering they existed up to 6000 years ago?

You start with a wrong assumption to begin with, then those R1b spread into Europe. Another wrong assumption. And then split into Celtic, Germanic, blah, blah...

In Europe, linguistic families have almost nothing to do with ethnicity, or haplogroups. But keep going discussing U123x3423423 R1bs.

I'd like all of you experts to connect your stupid ideas with mtDna information, and try to make sense out of that. But you wouldn't and you can't because all your assumptions are wrong to begin with.

Just because one region has a 40% frequency of one haplogroup, it does not mean 40% of those people there were descended from one uniform group of people who carried that haplogroup. It could be even something as low as 1%.





Please if you want to do genetic research stick to autosomal DNA, and even that has its faults too, but its not pseudo-bullshit like this haplogroup crap.

 

[GloomyGonzales]

Hmm. Interesting thread revival.

I'm still not convinced that U152 is of "Roman" origin: more specifically, I do not think that it is associated in any way with the Italic tribes of pre-Roman Italy. The reason for this is that the diversity for U152 (especially the distribution of it's main subclades L2, Z36 and Z56) is greater north of the Alps than south of it. I'm also under the impression that there is more diversity of U152 in Britain than in Italy.

I mean sure, much of U152's distribution can probably be explained by movements inside the Roman Empire, especially places like North Africa. But with Britain, my money is more though on Iron Age tribes than the Roman legionaires or Sarmatians...

Stop dreaming guys U152 is Ligurian. It perfectly matches Ligurian expansions in France and Iberia and later when North Italy was conquered by Romans spread of Roman Empire to the East, Central Europe and Britain. R1b folks are Ibero-Ligurians came in Europe with non-IE Cardium Pottery or Cardial Ware.

 

[zanipolo]

take note:

Geno 2.0 use DNATribes map for geography...........so its slightly different , as an example southern Italy is part of what they term Greek, germany and austira combined........any way check DNAtribes and you can see this reference map.
look what they mean by Romanian

http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-europa.html
these are the groupings

 

[zanipolo]

Sincerely, Y-R1b-U152 has very few chances to be of Romanian origin: and "romanian" is a confusing definition here: ethnic? geographic? for we know at this point U152 as the majority of occidental Y-R1bs was born around the Switzerland Alps or maybe before being pushed forwards in Austria, when, nobody is sure of a precise date, maybe before the definitive ruprure between celtic and italic?
- Sarmatians, always according to our present knowledge, had more chances to be of Y-R1a + some north Caucasus Y-G2a + some possible Y-I2a1 and Y-J2a without speek about some other "asian" HGs picked here and there, as Y-Q or Y-T and even Y-O or Y-N (I don't speek yet about some incorporated other carpathian "neolithical" HGs

The migrational paths, the steppes, anatolia, alps, balkans, italy, france, spain, germany and others have many HG markers, the isolated places like ireland which has 90%plus of R1B are a different "beast"

 

[zanipolo]

Yes y-chromosome frequncies associated with linguistic families. Good job guys. Amazing proof you have here. Nothing stupid about these types of assumptions.

Do you people not realize that even the Indo-Europeans were not uniform to begin with considering they existed up to 6000 years ago?

You start with a wrong assumption to begin with, then those R1b spread into Europe. Another wrong assumption. And then split into Celtic, Germanic, blah, blah...

In Europe, linguistic families have almost nothing to do with ethnicity, or haplogroups. But keep going discussing U123x3423423 R1bs.

I'd like all of you experts to connect your stupid ideas with mtDna information, and try to make sense out of that. But you wouldn't and you can't because all your assumptions are wrong to begin with.

Just because one region has a 40% frequency of one haplogroup, it does not mean 40% of those people there were descended from one uniform group of people who carried that haplogroup. It could be even something as low as 1%.





Please if you want to do genetic research stick to autosomal DNA, and even that has its faults too, but its not pseudo-bullshit like this haplogroup crap.

bravo

liguistics with gentics do not align nor does religion either

 

[Dorianfinder]

Hmm. Interesting thread revival.

I'm still not convinced that U152 is of "Roman" origin: more specifically, I do not think that it is associated in any way with the Italic tribes of pre-Roman Italy. The reason for this is that the diversity for U152 (especially the distribution of it's main subclades L2, Z36 and Z56) is greater north of the Alps than south of it. I'm also under the impression that there is more diversity of U152 in Britain than in Italy.

I mean sure, much of U152's distribution can probably be explained by movements inside the Roman Empire, especially places like North Africa. But with Britain, my money is more though on Iron Age tribes than the Roman legionaires or Sarmatians...

Yes, the Iron Age diffusion/invasion model of how the majority of U152 entered the British isles is a plausible idea backed by evidence from a range of scientific fields. Allow me to add that the L2 subclade of U152 is probably older than was first thought and may even point to a dispersal that commenced sometime during the late Bronze Age perhaps.

 

[Pi gman]

Dorianfinder,

Is it possible that L2 and in my case Z49,Z142 were Greek in the Bronze age?

 

[Pi gman]

Think I just answered my own question. L2 is 2,500 YBP. Putting it at about 500 BCE. Question though maybe still in Greece then?

 

[Dorianfinder]

Dorianfinder,

Is it possible that L2 and in my case Z49,Z142 were Greek in the Bronze age?

L2 as we all know is the largest branch of U152 and has spread across most of Europe. Therefore it is difficult to say exactly where your specific Z142 branch was based. I think that Tibor from the U152 subclades project was correct when he said that we need more U152 samples from the Balkans and without the Balkans we cannot be certain about the origins of U152.

My understanding is that Greece and it's colonies attracted people from all over Europe from as early if not earlier than the Bronze Age. This means that there probably was an Hellenic U152, an Italic U152 and a Gallic U152 and so forth etc. Movement across the Mediterranean was not uncommon and the Roman Age emanated with the 'help' of a pre-Christian era gene flow from Hellenic city states. I believe that as U152 moved from early Celtic settlements to Greece so too U152 moved from Greece to Marseille, Liguria and Venice later on. The Dorians may have carried some U152 into Bronze Age Greece... the Dorian Sabines moved to Italy where they introduced an Hellenic U152 population into the already established Italic U152 population etc.

Maciamo and I have debated for and against Roman U152 into Greece. I believe the Greek island population has too much U152 and is genetically too diverse to assume that Romans ran riot and spread their seed throughout the far flung and isolated reaches of Greece. The application and validity of inference using frequency data is limited within the Greek context as it's civilization was far more advanced than other parts of ancient Europe, meaning a larger population already stationed in Greece when U152 was formed in our common ancestor. It is also necessary to consider the gene flow from Greece, Anatolia and the Levant into Italy and Provence during more recent times such as after the fall of Constantinople in 1453. It is also interesting to note that despite the re-population of the Peloponnese and Crete with Arabs and Ottoman Turks, we continue to find the largest amounts of U152 in these ancient Dorian strongholds. Where Maciamo's theory lacks support is that U152 is concentrated in the poor communities located in the far eastern corner of Crete and in Apokorona, the heart of Greek resistance against the Venetian authorities. I have to add that Venetians were not devoid of Greek influence themselves. A few Greek families such as the Phocas (Calergis) and Armenis (d'Armer) families were influential in both the Greek and Venetian communities. These family branches were ethnically Greek and culturally Venetian.

To suggest a linear hypothesis would be naive I think. It is worth emphasizing the cultural and militaristic package that remained almost intact from the age of Alexander to the Angevin rulers of Naples, Sicily and Greece.

 

[zanipolo]

L2 as we all know is the largest branch of U152 and has spread across most of Europe. Therefore it is difficult to say exactly where your specific Z142 branch was based. I think that Tibor from the U152 subclades project was correct when he said that we need more U152 samples from the Balkans and without the Balkans we cannot be certain about the origins of U152.

My understanding is that Greece and it's colonies attracted people from all over Europe from as early if not earlier than the Bronze Age. This means that there probably was an Hellenic U152, an Italic U152 and a Gallic U152 and so forth etc. Movement across the Mediterranean was not uncommon and the Roman Age emanated with the 'help' of a pre-Christian era gene flow from Hellenic city states. I believe that as U152 moved from early Celtic settlements to Greece so too U152 moved from Greece to Marseille, Liguria and Venice later on. The Dorians may have carried some U152 into Bronze Age Greece... the Dorian Sabines moved to Italy where they introduced an Hellenic U152 population into the already established Italic U152 population etc.

Maciamo and I have debated for and against Roman U152 into Greece. I believe the Greek island population has too much U152 and is genetically too diverse to assume that Romans ran riot and spread their seed throughout the far flung and isolated reaches of Greece. The application and validity of inference using frequency data is limited within the Greek context as it's civilization was far more advanced than other parts of ancient Europe, meaning a larger population already stationed in Greece when U152 was formed in our common ancestor. It is also necessary to consider the gene flow from Greece, Anatolia and the Levant into Italy and Provence during more recent times such as after the fall of Constantinople in 1453. It is also interesting to note that despite the re-population of the Peloponnese and Crete with Arabs and Ottoman Turks, we continue to find the largest amounts of U152 in these ancient Dorian strongholds. Where Maciamo's theory lacks support is that U152 is concentrated in the poor communities located in the far eastern corner of Crete and in Apokorona, the heart of Greek resistance against the Venetian authorities. I have to add that Venetians were not devoid of Greek influence themselves. A few Greek families such as the Phocas (Calergis) and Armenis (d'Armer) families were influential in both the Greek and Venetian communities. These family branches were ethnically Greek and culturally Venetian.

To suggest a linear hypothesis would be naive I think. It is worth emphasizing the cultural and militaristic package that remained almost intact from the age of Alexander to the Angevin rulers of Naples, Sicily and Greece.

agree with venetian part , the genoese holdings in greece and the aegean have more U152 than the venetians

 

[Pi gman]

The reason I am speculating about the Greek part is this result from a Genebase population study study comparison to my markers:


The Y-DNA of Curtis Pigman was compared to a dataset of 2 populations in 1 journal using 8 Y-DNA STR markers. The closest matches in a set of 2 populations are listed in the table below:
[TABLE="class: tblBarGraph"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"] Smyma, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: right"]

RMI: 294.05[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"] Phocaea, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: right"]

RMI: 205.95[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Curtis Pigman's Y-DNA STR markers were compared to the following 2 populations:
[TABLE="class: tblOrder02 br25"]
[TR]
[TH]Population[/TH]
[TH]Continent[/TH]
[TH]Category[/TH]
[TH]Size (N)[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Smyma, Greece[/TD]
[TD]Europe[/TD]
[TD]Indigenous[/TD]
[TD]45[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Phocaea, Greece[/TD]
[TD]Europe[/TD]
[TD]Indigenous[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Appendix 4: Raw Comparison Results
The results of this comparison are based on the following raw analysis data:
Matches at a Genetic Distance of 0:
[TABLE="class: tblOrder02"]
[TR]
[TH]Population Set[/TH]
[TH]# Matches[/TH]
[TH]Population Size[/TH]
[TH]Match %[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Phocaea, Greece[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]3.85%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Matches at a Genetic Distance of 1:
[TABLE="class: tblOrder02"]
[TR]
[TH]Population Set[/TH]
[TH]# Matches[/TH]
[TH]Population Size[/TH]
[TH]Match %[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Smyma, Greece[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]45[/TD]
[TD]2.22%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Matches at a Genetic Distance of 2:
[TABLE="class: tblOrder02"]
[TR]
[TH]Population Set[/TH]
[TH]# Matches[/TH]
[TH]Population Size[/TH]
[TH]Match %[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Smyma, Greece[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]45[/TD]
[TD]11.11%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Matches at a Genetic Distance of 3:
[TABLE="class: tblOrder02"]
[TR]
[TH]Population Set[/TH]
[TH]# Matches[/TH]
[TH]Population Size[/TH]
[TH]Match %[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Smyma, Greece[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]45[/TD]
[TD]15.56%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Phocaea, Greece[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]11.54%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Matches at a Genetic Distance of 4:
[TABLE="class: tblOrder02"]
[TR]
[TH]Population Set[/TH]
[TH]# Matches[/TH]
[TH]Population Size[/TH]
[TH]Match %[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Phocaea, Greece[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]15.38%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Smyma, Greece




[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]45[/TD]
[TD]8.89%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Although not ideal because they did not compare SNPs, the people in these studies were selected because they could prove (to the period before 1920) they were in fact from Greek ancestry.

The population study is from:
The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3068964/?tool=pubmed

Ionian Greek were previously in Crete.

These two Greece cities in Greek Asia Minor are said to have been founded by Ionian Greeks from the Peloponnese and after a time became allies of the Romans. Smyrna and Phocean Nobles were also encouraged (because of overpopulation?) to relocate to Marseilles, France and start new cities.

What are your thoughts?

Regards,
Curtis Pigman(French - Pigmon / Greek - Pygmon)

 

[Dorianfinder]

The reason I am speculating about the Greek part is this result from a Genebase population study study comparison to my markers:


The Y-DNA of Curtis Pigman was compared to a dataset of 2 populations in 1 journal using 8 Y-DNA STR markers. The closest matches in a set of 2 populations are listed in the table below:
[TABLE="class: tblBarGraph"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"] Smyma, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: right"]

RMI: 294.05[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"] Phocaea, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: right"]

RMI: 205.95[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Curtis Pigman's Y-DNA STR markers were compared to the following 2 populations:
[TABLE="class: tblOrder02 br25"]
[TR]
[TH]Population[/TH]
[TH]Continent[/TH]
[TH]Category[/TH]
[TH]Size (N)[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Smyma, Greece[/TD]
[TD]Europe[/TD]
[TD]Indigenous[/TD]
[TD]45[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Phocaea, Greece[/TD]
[TD]Europe[/TD]
[TD]Indigenous[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Appendix 4: Raw Comparison Results
The results of this comparison are based on the following raw analysis data:
Matches at a Genetic Distance of 0:
[TABLE="class: tblOrder02"]
[TR]
[TH]Population Set[/TH]
[TH]# Matches[/TH]
[TH]Population Size[/TH]
[TH]Match %[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Phocaea, Greece[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]3.85%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Matches at a Genetic Distance of 1:
[TABLE="class: tblOrder02"]
[TR]
[TH]Population Set[/TH]
[TH]# Matches[/TH]
[TH]Population Size[/TH]
[TH]Match %[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Smyma, Greece[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]45[/TD]
[TD]2.22%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Matches at a Genetic Distance of 2:
[TABLE="class: tblOrder02"]
[TR]
[TH]Population Set[/TH]
[TH]# Matches[/TH]
[TH]Population Size[/TH]
[TH]Match %[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Smyma, Greece[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]45[/TD]
[TD]11.11%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Matches at a Genetic Distance of 3:
[TABLE="class: tblOrder02"]
[TR]
[TH]Population Set[/TH]
[TH]# Matches[/TH]
[TH]Population Size[/TH]
[TH]Match %[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Smyma, Greece[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]45[/TD]
[TD]15.56%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Phocaea, Greece[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]11.54%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Matches at a Genetic Distance of 4:
[TABLE="class: tblOrder02"]
[TR]
[TH]Population Set[/TH]
[TH]# Matches[/TH]
[TH]Population Size[/TH]
[TH]Match %[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Phocaea, Greece[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]15.38%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Smyma, Greece



[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]45[/TD]
[TD]8.89%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Although not ideal because they did not compare SNPs, the people in these studies were selected because they could prove (to the period before 1920) they were in fact from Greek ancestry.

The population study is from:
The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3068964/?tool=pubmed

Ionian Greek were previously in Crete.

These two Greece cities in Greek Asia Minor are said to have been founded by Ionian Greeks from the Peloponnese and after a time became allies of the Romans. Smyrna and Phocean Nobles were also encouraged (because of overpopulation?) to relocate to Marseilles, France and start new cities.

What are your thoughts?

Regards,
Curtis Pigman(French - Pigmon / Greek - Pygmon)

Generally I would agree with the notion that some U152 may have gone to Marseilles from Greek Doric settlements that had much in common with their Celtic brethren in ancient Gaul. I would like to see more Greek U152 individuals get tested at a higher resolution (subclade). The theory and hypothesis will come in handy as soon as the DNA results support these ideas, until then we can only wait for more Greeks to get ydna tested.

 

[Pi gman]

Generally I would agree with the notion that some U152 may have gone to Marseilles from Greek Doric settlements that had much in common with their Celtic brethren in ancient Gaul. I would like to see more Greek U152 individuals get tested at a higher resolution (subclade). The theory and hypothesis will come in handy as soon as the DNA results support these ideas, until then we can only wait for more Greeks to get ydna tested.

I agree that we need to get the SNPs from these Greek samples. That would firm up this quote from Wikipedia and History of the Peloponnesian War by Thucydides If we only had proof it would explain a lot about French U152/L2:

Marseille has been called the oldest city in France, as it was founded in 600 BC by Greeks from Phocaea as a trading port under the name Μασσαλία (Massalia; see also List of traditional Greek place names). The connection between Μασσαλία and the Phoceans is mentioned in Book I, 13 of the History of the Peloponnesian War by Thucydides.^[11] The precise circumstances and date of founding remain obscure, but nevertheless a legend survives. Protis, while exploring for a new trading outpost or emporion for Phocaea, discovered the Mediterranean cove of the Lacydon, fed by a freshwater stream and protected by two rocky promontories.^[12] Protis was invited inland to a banquet held by the chief of the local Ligurian tribe for suitors seeking the hand of his daughter Gyptis in marriage. At the end of the banquet, Gyptis presented the ceremonial cup of wine to Protis, indicating her unequivocal choice. Following their marriage, they moved to the hill just to the north of the Lacydon; and from this settlement grew Massalia.^[12]


View from the Vieux-Port towards Notre-Dame-de-la-Garde


Massalia was one of the first Greek ports in Western Europe,^[13] growing to a population of over 1000. It was the first settlement given city status in France. Facing an opposing alliance of the Etruscans, Carthage and the Celts, the Greek colony allied itself with the expanding Roman Republic for protection. This protectionist association brought aid in the event of future attacks, and perhaps equally important, it also brought the people of Massalia into the complex Roman market. The city thrived by acting as a link between inland Gaul, hungry for Roman goods and wine (which Massalia was steadily exporting by 500 BC)

Curtis Pigman (French - Pigmon / Greek - Pygmon)

 

[Nobody1]

To me R1b - U152 is Ligurian (ancient Ligures / Pre-Indo European)
The theory about Phocaens bringing it to Marseille (and Marseille even being Celtic) is nonsense.
Marseille was a Greek colony in Ligurian territory, infact all of the Rhone Valley was Ligurian or just Celto-Ligurian at best.

Henry Malden - History of Rome (1830)
"Pliny held the Sallyi, Deceates, and Oxybii, tribes upon the coast, to be Ligurians. Strabo is more cautious; and informs us that later writers called the Salyes, who extended along the coast a little further than Massalia (Marseilles), Celto-Ligyes (that is, Gallo-Ligurians), from the intermixture of the Gaulish population; but that the earlier Greeks called them Ligyes, and the country which the Massaliots occupied, Ligystic or Ligurian; and assigned to them [Ligurians]"
"This agrees with the account of Scylax, who makes the Rhone the limit of the pure Ligurians."

As for Phocaea,
wasnt Phocaea a Genoese colony (for ~100 years) in the middle ages, and couldnt it therefor be that it was the Genoese and Lombards [North Italians (largely employed as mercenaries by the Genoese)] that brought the R1b-U152 to Phocaea.

 

[Pi gman]

To me R1b - U152 is Ligurian (ancient Ligures / Pre-Indo European)
The theory about Phocaens bringing it to Marseille (and Marseille even being Celtic) is nonsense.
Marseille was a Greek colony in Ligurian territory, infact all of the Rhone Valley was Ligurian or just Celto-Ligurian at best.

Henry Malden - History of Rome (1830)
"Pliny held the Sallyi, Deceates, and Oxybii, tribes upon the coast, to be Ligurians. Strabo is more cautious; and informs us that later writers called the Salyes, who extended along the coast a little further than Massalia (Marseilles), Celto-Ligyes (that is, Gallo-Ligurians), from the intermixture of the Gaulish population; but that the earlier Greeks called them Ligyes, and the country which the Massaliots occupied, Ligystic or Ligurian; and assigned to them [Ligurians]"
"This agrees with the account of Scylax, who makes the Rhone the limit of the pure Ligurians."

As for Phocaea,
wasnt Phocaea a Genoese colony (for ~100 years) in the middle ages, and couldnt it therefor be that it was the Genoese and Lombards [North Italians (largely employed as mercenaries by the Genoese)] that brought the R1b-U152 to Phocaea.

I think this quote from Wikipedia and Pliny should answer both of your questions:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea

Phocaea, or Phokaia, (Greek: Φώκαια) (modern-day Foça in Turkey) was an ancient Ionian Greek city on the western coast of Anatolia. Greek colonists from Phocaea founded the colony of Massalia^[1] (modern day Marseille, in France) in 600 BC, Emporion (modern day Empúries, in Catalonia, Spain) in 575 BC and Elea (modern day Velia, in Campania, Italy) in 540 BC.

or this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marseille

"Marseille has been called the oldest city in France, as it was founded in 600 BC by Greeks from Phocaea as a trading port under the name Μασσαλία (Massalia; see also List of traditional Greek place names). The connection between Μασσαλία and the Phoceans is mentioned in Book I, 13 of the History of the Peloponnesian War by Thucydides.^[11] The precise circumstances and date of founding remain obscure, but nevertheless a legend survives. Protis, while exploring for a new trading outpost or emporion for Phocaea, discovered the Mediterranean cove of the Lacydon, fed by a freshwater stream and protected by two rocky promontories.^[12] Protis was invited inland to a banquet held by the chief of the local Ligurian tribe for suitors seeking the hand of his daughter Gyptis in marriage. At the end of the banquet, Gyptis presented the ceremonial cup of wine to Protis, indicating her unequivocal choice. Following their marriage, they moved to the hill just to the north of the Lacydon; and from this settlement grew Massalia.^[12]"

 

[Nobody1]

I think this quote from Wikipedia and Pliny should answer both of your questions

Really you think? seems more like ignoring my question (only had one).
Didnt really read alot about the Genoese Republic in Phokaia in your wikipedia links. maybe i missed it maybe i didnt.

Therefor i still think its poss. that R1b S28 (U152) spread to Phokaia with the Genoese and Lombards having the times of their lives when Phokaia was a Genoese colony in the middle ages.

as for Marseille

Henry Malden - History of Rome (1830)
"Pliny held the Sallyi, Deceates, and Oxybii, tribes upon the coast, to be Ligurians. Strabo is more cautious; and informs us that later writers called the Salyes, who extended along the coast a little further than Massalia (Marseilles), Celto-Ligyes (that is, Gallo-Ligurians), from the intermixture of the Gaulish population; but that the earlier Greeks called them Ligyes, and the country which the Massaliots occupied, Ligystic or Ligurian; and assigned to them [Ligurians]"
"This agrees with the account of Scylax, who makes the Rhone the limit of the pure Ligurians."

So its pretty established that Marseille (Massilia) was a Greek Colony in Ligurian territory (also your wiki link confirms that); But what about it?