R1b DF27 in Iberia

I1a3_Young said:
Perhaps some support rather than nonsense would be warranted by you. Offer something or keep quiet. Iberia is clearly not the origination of DF27 based on the YSNP tree. Southern France would be consistent.
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Southern France not sure, geographic barycenter of the DF27s is about Calais City (North of France) : https://phylogeographer.com/r-df27-and-pas-de-calais/
 
I1a3_Young said:
Perhaps some support rather than nonsense would be warranted by you. Offer something or keep quiet. Iberia is clearly not the origination of DF27 based on the YSNP tree. Southern France would be consistent.
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These are the oldest cases of Df27 that we know of. In Iberia, there was a massive founder effect with the two major branches of Df25, i.e. Z195 and ZZ12 represented since the beginning of the Bronze Age.

*EHU002 (2.434 BC)-Yacimiento de El Hundido-HapY-R1b-P312>DF27-Mit-K1a4/a1
*GBVPK (2.380 BC)- Grotte Basse de la Vigne Perdue-HapY-R1b1a/1b1a/1a2a/1-Z195-Mit-J2b1/a
*I8561 (2.272 BC)-Isnello, Sicilia-HapY-R1b-Df27-Z195-Mit-K1b1@16093
*I3123 (2.165 BC)-Buffa, Sicilia-HapY-R1b-Df27-Z195-Mit-U8b1/b1
*I3756-Castillejo del Bonete (1.897 BC)-HapY-R1b-DF27-ZZ12-A6387-BY61519-Mit-H1
*I3494-Coveta del Frare-(1.836 BC)-Hap Y-R1b-P312-DF27-ZZ12-BY3332-Mit-J1c1/b
*OBE3626-1-Obernai-Alsacia-(1.813 BC)-HapY-R1b-Df27-ZZ12>Z225>Z229/F1343-Mit-R1b
*I5441 (1.800 AC)-Neale's Cave, Paington, Devon-HapY-R1b-P312-Df27-Mit-H1@16239
*I1312d- Can Roqueta (1.782 BC)-HapY-R1b-Df27-Z195-Mit-HV0@195
*VAD001-Valdescusa (1.741 BC)-HapY-R1b-Df27-Z225-Z229*-Mit-U5b1
*I3397-Lloma de Betxí (1.741 BC)- HapY-R1b-Df27-Z195-Mit-K1a2/b
*Esp005-Cueva de los Lagos (1.700 AC)-HapY-R1b-DF27-ZZ12-Y3224-Mit-K1a
*I6470- Dolmen del Virgazal (1.651 BC)-HapY-R1b-Df27-ZZ12-Y30814-FGC33092-Mit-J1c1
*I10939-Cueva de Bray-(1.650 BC)-HapY-R1b-DF27-ZZ12-A6387-A11632-Mit-K1a3/a
*I4563- Galls Carboners (1.600 BC)-HapY-R1b-DF27-Z195-Z198-BY36372-Mit-H1/H84
*I12209- La Requejada (1.289 BC)-HapY-R1b-Df27-ZZ12-BY15964-Mit-H1ah
*WEZ59-Tollense (1.250 BC)-HapY-R1b-P312-Yleaf-R1b1a/1b1a/1a2a/1a-Df27-Z220-Mit-U5a2/b1a

1-El Hundido (2.434 BC)-We have a Df27 buried at the entrance of a Neolithic dolmen with grave goods typical of the Iberian BB culture-BB burial-Oval pit in the corridor of a dolmen-Male+45 years, 1,85 m, Brachicephally, fetal position in right lateral decubitus and with NO-SE orientation-Grave goods- Ciempozuelos style vessel, copper dagger, V perforated button, stone wristguard-

Y Chromosome Haplogroup assignments for ~2500 ancient samples-Reich Lab-Harvard- EHU002 belongs to R1b1a/1b1a/1a2a/7-DF27>DF83- Position (hg19)-22901108 - Position (hg38)-20739222-R-S24844/A12032-Ancestral Allele-C>TR1bP312>ZZ11_1>DF27>ZZ12>Z2559>FGC4920>DF83>Z2563>Z2567>CTS9545>CTS6519>FGC67201>Y15926>A11786>A12020/Y23959-Marker [S24844] currently considered coincident with marker [A12020], using that phylogenetic tree.

R1b1a/1b1a/1a2:P312/S116/PF6547/MF52579
R1b1a/1b1a/1a2a/7:A12032/S24844


2-Grotte Basse de la Vigne Perdue- Archaeological material is characteristic of the Late Neolithic and the Early-Middle Bronze Age. In particular hemispherical V-perforated buttons could be attributed to early Bell Beakers-Iberic influence. Two pottery fragments of the later Pyrenean style, as well as turtle-shaped V-perforated buttons were also present. Two double-ended copper awls of square cross-section and one barbed-and-tanged arrowhead could be attributed to any of these two early Bell Beaker phases. Based on the radiocarbon dates presented here, individual GBVPK (2,461-2,299 cal. years BCE) is included in the late Bell Beaker timing period (Pyrenean-2.380 BC)-HapY-R1b1a/1b1a/1a2a/1-Df27-Z195 Mit-J2b1/a-Middle Bell Beaker- Geographically, the western part of the region from the Pyrenees and the Middle Garonne to central Languedoc was occupied by the Pyrenean group, while the eastern part, from eastern Languedoc to the Alps, was occupied by the Rhodano-Provençal group-Nothing suggests that the people of the Bell Beaker Culture were a population or group specialised in a specific kind of activity. Collective burials dominate (caves and rock shelters, hypogaea, dolmens, block tombs) and were frequently reused from the start of the 3rd millennium BC onwards. Pyrenean Group- The best comparisons for the decorated pottery come once again from the Iberian Peninsula, but rather in Spain with the Ciempozuelos group (Garrido Pena 2000) for which some forms are identical to objects in the Rhodano-Provençal group (Lemercier 2003b). Some objects suggest other contacts, for instance microlit crescents point to contacts with Italy, while certain ceramic forms resemble forms in central or northern Europe. Domestic pottery seems to have been shared with other recent Bell Beaker groups across a large geographic area: in central Italy, Switzerland, the Rhône-Saône corridor to Normandy and along the Atlantic coast (Besse 2003; Leonini 2003).

Sicily (Isnello, Buffa)The presence of Steppe ancestry in Early Bronze Age Sicily is also evident in Y chromosome analysis, which reveals that 4 of the 5 Early Bronze Age males had Steppe-associated Y-haplogroup R1b1a/1a2a/1a2. Two of these were Y-haplogroup R1b1a/1a2a/1a2a/1 (Z195) which today is largely restricted to Iberia and has been hypothesized to have originated there 2500-2000 BCE. This evidence of west-to-east gene flow from Iberia is also suggested by qpAdm modeling where the only parsimonious proximate source for the Steppe ancestry we found in the main Sicily-EBA cluster is Iberians


Then we have Df27 in Iberia, southern France and Sicily in deposits of the Bb culture. The pottery of the French site is identical to that of the Spanish site, and the Sicilians are of Iberian origin. The origin of Df27 is in the French-Cantabrian region, and from there it spread to the rest of Europe during the Bronze Age.
 
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Supposed migration rout. R-Y45921 (R-FGC35133)
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My as of now terminal haplogroup originated around 150 BC in western Britain, according to that website. I always presumed a more prosaic Iberian origin.
 

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Gaska said:
What a bunch of nonsense, you should dedicate yourself to studying your paternal lineage, and not trying to guess our origin. The first df27 are in Iberia and the south of France,
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This is such a funny statement. Here we have an example of what happens when the totality of the evidence isn't taken into consideration. The evidence is the phylogenetic tree, DNA results of ancient specimens, and no-calls in ancient specimens. The lack of missing data from the important period of when DF27 is estimated to have first mutated in a P312 person is also important.
 
Degredado said:
My as of now terminal haplogroup originated around 150 BC in western Britain, according to that website. I always presumed a more prosaic Iberian origin.
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Are you familiar with what that site uses as the source data to come to the conclusions that it does?
 
Origin of R1b-DF27

Taking into account both the frequency of R1b-DF27, which is found in > 40% of Iberian males but declines abruptly to < 10% in western Europe north of the Pyrenees, and is rare elsewhere, and that STR variation linked to R1b-DF27 was greater within Iberia17, it was postulated that NE Iberia is the most likely place of origin of DF2717. The present results show indeed that nucleotide diversity is marginally higher in NE Iberia than elsewhere, and that whole branches of the R1b-DF27 phylogeny, particularly R1b-Z272, are restricted to Iberia. However, ancient DNA, and the fact that nucleotide diversity is not significantly lower in NW Europe compared to Iberia, do not rule out the possibility that R1b-DF27 originated elsewhere in Western Europe, but expanded and radiated in the north of the Iberian Peninsula, where it replaced the local paternal lineages to a great extent. Both ancient and extant DNA point to the Bronze Age expansions as the cause for the spread of R1b-DF27 throughout Western Europe and particularly into Iberia.


Y-chromosome target enrichment reveals rapid expansion of haplogroup R1b-DF27 in Iberia during the Bronze Age transition
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-25200-7
 
I'm an off-shoot of Df27, Z225. I believe the oldest sample found for it is in eastern France. I'd assume at the moment Df27 originated somewhere around modern France, German border going by samples alone. And then the explanation of its prominence in iberia today is due to a massive founder effect.

To go back to someone's question before of the prevalence in south iberia. I've seen figures showing a lower rate of r1b in general in iberia, not sure the accuracy and sample sizes used. All my family are from the deep south in the Algarve and I have it. Many of my matches on 23andMe have r1b as well, but also some with j, e-m81, and other clades.
 
idk if it has origin in iberia i've senn a lot of frenchs and English people with it even it have a minor presence in southern Scandinavia
 
ArmandoR1b said:
Are you familiar with what that site uses as the source data to come to the conclusions that it does?
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it is named SNPtracker.com if u are interested on it,it's a cool site it's based in FTDNA but on Mapping mostly and include ancient samples:smile:
 
Ivorix said:
it is named SNPtracker.com if u are interested on it,it's a cool site it's based in FTDNA but on Mapping mostly and include ancient samples:smile:
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Yes I already knew what it was and where the data comes from and the conclusions it is making based on limited samples and data. I also know how to analyze BAM files of the same ancient specimens used. The huge problems of using ancient samples for the conclusions SNPtracker makes are that there aren't enough samples with high enough resolution to actually know where individuals with specific SNPs didn't exist within a specific century. DF27 and many of the subclades are not easy SNPs to test for and it is worse in ancient samples that have a high rate of DNA degradation and the DNA testing of individuals that are positive for P312 can have a no-call (no data) for DF27 and many relevant downstream SNPs but that does not mean that they were negative for DF27.

The best example is EHU002 (UE 450) 2562–2306 cal BCE (c. 2434 BC) El Hundido, Monasterio de Rodilla, Burgos, Castilla y León, Spain. We have no idea if he is positive for negative for DF27 since there is no data for DF27 for that individual. See also https://sites.google.com/site/rox2cluster/ancient-df27?pli=1.

SNPtracker suffers from an under coverage non-sampling error since the ancient specimens tested are based on the specimens that the geneticists could find and not based on proper sampling and also because there is too much DNA degradation of the ancient samples and because DF27 is hard to test for even when there is no degradation. Therefore the mapper has incorrect conclusions.

Additionally, high resolution Y-DNA testing is a hobby that is far more popular with people in the United States with ancestry from the British Isles. Spain, Portugal, and Latin American countries have much lower participation which also causes errors with SNPtracker. The frequency of DF27 is highest is Spain, Portugal, and southern France and the low participation of people that are from there or have direct paternal ancestry from there aren't represented in SNPtracker or FTDNA or YFull.

Now on to why I asked the question that you quoted. Degredado stated "My as of now terminal haplogroup originated around 150 BC in western Britain, according to that website" There is absolutely no way to know where his terminal haplogroup originated because of the dearth of ancient samples and because most of the SNPs between P312 and BY101711 have no data meaning we do not know if many of them are positive or negative for those SNPs. SNPtracker should do a much better job of explaining the low coverage of ancient samples, the very low number of ancient samples meaning a lot of populations over the centuries are not represented, and the low coverage of modern samples in comparison to the British Isles. They should also have the problems announced on the mapper page in large enough lettering to alert the reader.

No one should ever take SNPtracker at face value. It's unfortunate that it is so easy to spread misinformation and so hard to educate people on the truth. Degredado has already suffered from the spread of misinformation. I attempt to do my part in educating readers without knowing if I was ever successful.
 
Luso said:
I'm an off-shoot of Df27, Z225. I believe the oldest sample found for it is in eastern France. I'd assume at the moment Df27 originated somewhere around modern France, German border going by samples alone. And then the explanation of its prominence in iberia today is due to a massive founder effect.
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EHU002 (UE 450) 2562–2306 cal BCE El Hundido, Monasterio de Rodilla, Burgos, Castilla y León, Spain does not have a read for DF27 due to DNA degradation. Therefore it could actually be positive for DF27 yet it is unknown. If it actually is DF27 then it is older than GBVPK: France, Grotte Basse de la Vigne Perdue, 2461-2299 cal BC

However, it is true that DF27 likely originated outside of Iberia but had an early entry into Iberia and became prominent there. We can logically conclude that based on several factors. First of all the SNPs L23, L51, L52, and L151 are all absent from Western Europe prior to 2800 BC. Then when all of the sudden Steppe autosomal DNA appears which has only been detected in older samples from the Steppe and Afanasievo, or at least outside of Western Europe, it shows up in Western Europe then samples with L23, L51, L52 start to appear in Western and Central Europe and then samples with P312 appear in BBC all over Western Europe. So we can see the progression of the migration and the mutations from east to west. No matter where DF27 was first born it spread out a lot and had the most significant impact in Iberia and southern France which make GBVPK and EHU002 unsurprising finds although the degradation of the position of DF27 of EHU002 make the discussion more complicated.

See also https://sites.google.com/site/rox2cluster/ancient-df27

"The earliest R1b-P312 burial in Iberia is EHU002 (UE 450) 2562–2306 cal BCE (3933±32 BP, CSIC-1896) El Hundido, Monasterio de Rodilla, Burgos, Castilla y León, Spain. At c. 2434 BC, EHU002 is younger than P312>U152 RISE563, dated to 2572-2512 calBCE (c. 2542 BC), although considering the wide margins of error there is not much difference. Both are probably a few hundred years younger than the first U152 and DF27 'brothers'. EHU002 is P312+ DF19- L238- Z290- L21- but it is not known if he is + or - for DF99, DF27, Z195, ZZ12, U152 or L2. As with other R1b-P312* and R1b-P310* results (the asterisk meaning no downstream SNPs found) from time-degraded ancient DNA, and considering the location of the burial not far from oldest DF27+ burial GBVPK at Grotte Basse de la Vigne Perdue ( c. 2380 BC), there is a good likelihood that EHU002 is DF27+ but unfortunately there is no SNP evidence."

"As mentioned above, EHU002 (UE 450) 2562–2306 cal BCE (c. 2434 BC) El Hundido, Monasterio de Rodilla, Burgos, Castilla y León, Spain with 'steppe ancestry' is P312+ DF19- L238- Z290- L21- but DF99, DF27, Z195, ZZ12, U152 and L2 are missing/no-calls. As with other R1b-P312* and R1b-P310* results from time-degraded ancient DNA there is a good likelihood of EHU002 being derived/positive for DF27 but the SNPs are not present in the sample. The high 'EEF' or 'southern' autosomal admixture R1b-P310* Boscombe Bowman from c. 2330 BC in Wessex, listed below, has an additional hint that he might be DF27+ in the form of FGC11381. That SNP is potentially old enough, is present, and is derived/positive in the Bowman's low resolution .bam file. However, one isolated downstream SNP is inconclusive."
 
Ivorix said:
idk if it has origin in iberia i've senn a lot of frenchs and English people with it even it have a minor presence in southern Scandinavia
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But those are modern samples and not ancient samples and to boot the English have a much higher participation rate causing a sampling bias. To find the likely birth place we need a lot more ancient samples and they need to have low DNA degradation. The highest frequency of DF27 is definitely among the Basque although it is partly because they were impacted less by the Moors.
 
According to Nevgen the 18th dynasty pharaohs (Amenhotep III, Akhenaten, Tutankhamun) most likely belonged to R1b-DF27 or R1b-U152.
 
Big if true ^
Am a bit skeptical though
 
It appears to me that most of DF27 arrived in Iberia with Celtic-related peoples of the Urnfield and early Hallstatt Cultures from central Europe. This also explains how DF27 has some non-insignificant presence there and in Germanic Europe as well plus Poland.

A graphic I altered sloppily to help demonstrate what I think are roughly the migration routes taken by Proto-Italo-Celtic peoples from the Early to later Bronze Age.
View attachment 13785
 
Hi Duarte, very informative tracker. However, I have a question that perhaps you can clarify. In the figure, R-L754 is a SNP originated near the Caspian sea in the Mesolithic. According to Robert Smith work1, there was R-L754 WHG in Villabruna, North of Italy in Paleolithic (ca. 12100 BC), if I am not wrong.

[TABLE="width: 1195"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl42, width: 1195, align: left"]1Fu, Q., Posth, C., Hajdinjak, M. et al. The genetic history of Ice Age Europe. Nature 534, 200–205 (2016)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
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