Possible new cro magnon haplogroup?

[ElHorsto]

i think you are right La Brana who was a 7,000 year old very very late Mesolithic hunter gather in spain had some med but Mediterranean is not exactly near eastern it is most popular in europe which surprises me the most since originally europe had all north European then why is med most popular in Europe when Europeans got it from someone else it seems med is not centered in any area and it is hard to say where it originated i think it shows austomnal DNA is alot more complicated than we think and does not give perfect percentages of ancestry

There were some artificial evidences calculated by Dienekes that Altantic_Med is the oldest from the european components (can be found in his blog). My current explanation model is that the earlier europeans were north-european-like but the later the migrations occured the more med-like they became (the bulk of course by neolithic farmers), and that's because in the paleolithic the near-east was possibly less West-Asian and more Med. than today, despite the West-Asian componend already existed, but it was probably more separated back then. The West-Asian component expanded in the near-east mostly during the neolithic, similar to the mongoloid expansion in asia. (pure speculation of mine)

 

[Knovas]

There were some artificial evidences calculated by Dienekes that Altantic_Med is the oldest from the european components (can be found in his blog). My current explanation model is that the earlier europeans were north-european-like but the later the migrations occured the more med-like they became (the bulk of course by neolithic farmers), and that's because in the paleolithic the near-east was possibly less West-Asian and more Med. than today, despite the West-Asian componend already existed, but it was probably more separated back then. The West-Asian component expanded in the near-east mostly during the neolithic, similar to the mongoloid expansion in asia. (pure speculation of mine)

It's a possibility, but keep in mind that a huge isolation in the near east considering the lack of barriers makes it really difficult. But the Mediterranean acting as a genetic barrier could easily do the job considering that during the Paleo-Mesolithic significant migrations were a rare phenomenon.

So my bet is: somewhere in Southern Europe...maybe the Southern Alpine region, but that's pure guess though.

 

[ElHorsto]

It's a possibility, but keep in mind that a huge isolation in the near east considering the lack of barriers makes it really difficult. But the Mediterranean acting as a genetic barrier could easily do the job considering that during the Paleo-Mesolithic significant migrations were a rare phenomenon.

So my bet is: somewhere in Southern Europe...maybe the Southern Alpine region, but that's pure guess though.

I don't know, but I think the neolithic revolution could have changed the near-east as much as southern europe and east asia, genetically.

 

[ElHorsto]

Actually north-africa (and the once green Sahara) is more likely than the near-east to have been the refuge of the Atlantic_med component. This would explain why Atlantic_med but no North_european can be found today in Northwest-Africa and why Atlantic_med is stronger in west europe than in east europe and also the genetic proximity to the North-european component.

Later, also neolithic farmers could have fled from the desertification of the Sahara to the north, maybe even the Bell-Beakers.

 

[Knovas]

But still in Africa there are little barriers to stop gene flow from Sub-Saharan Africa. If at some point a group of Caucasoids remained in the south, hence avoiding cold climate, it is very unlikely they never mated with Africans. Long time required...just see the Berbers as a Pre-Arab ethnic group: they are 20% African aprox.

The Med genes are surely very very old in North Africa though.

 

[Fire Haired]

Actually north-africa (and the once green Sahara) is more likely than the near-east to have been the refuge of the Atlantic_med component. This would explain why Atlantic_med but no North_european can be found today in Northwest-Africa and why Atlantic_med is stronger in west europe than in east europe and also the genetic proximity to the North-european component.

Later, also neolithic farmers could have fled from the desertification of the Sahara to the north, maybe even the Bell-Beakers.

i think the first caucasin settlers of north africa had some globe13 austomnal DNA med because they have no west asian which means they never really nter married with mid eastern people but they have about 30-40% med and al;so people around Arabia and isreal that is where the rgoup soutwest asian orignated north africans also have alot of southwest Asian so the group that settled north Africa probably came from arabia and since southwest asian and med are brothers i bet the med group originated in arabia

i still dont think meditreaen was in europe till the Mesolithic age it had to come from non european inter marraieg all f europe was already settled by people with 100% north european then they inter married with people who had med

and actulley all the austomnal DNA tests i have looked at north africans usulley have a big amount of european blood in globe13 austomnal DNA they have about 6% north european in another test it said they had over 20% but in all the tests they had no west asian about 15,000 ybp people from spain migrated to north africa and about 25-35% of north africans have mtDNA H1,H3,V, and U5b all of these are europeans they estimate that they arrived in north Africa from spain over 10,000ybp

and 12,000 year old bones in north Africa two had specifically European mtDNA V this group actuality originate in Spain 15,000ybp and is associated with the Iberian refuge they also migrated acroos most of europe here is a link that explains ithttp://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28819-Iberian-DNA-from-20-000-4-340-years-ago-exactly-like-modern-Europeans

most of the remains had mtDNA H and from 3 mtDNA samples in spain from 15,000ybp two of three had mtDNA H one had H6 and from 9 mtDNA samples in mesloithci portugal from 9,500ybp 5 had mtDNA H one 2 had H1b there is also a 20,000 year old bone in spain that had for sure mtDNA RO which is teh grandmother of H mtDNA RO is very old about 50,000 it is almost only found in arabia today and no mtDNA haplogroups ine urope ar edirect decendants so mtDNA Ro probably never migrated to Europe the possiblity is it had RO's daughter HV or its granddaughter H also a 28,000 year old bone in south tip of italy had H so mtDNA H did not arrive in europe during teh neloithic anothe reason is the mtDNA H subclades that take up aout 40% of European mtDNA are H1,H2,H3,H6,H8,H11 these all orignated in europe and are very veyr rare in the mid east this means they did not arriuve there from teh mid east and the mtDNA H is Europe is not all the same subclades if it came form teh same migration ukraine which has H6,H2,H8 would have the same subclades as spain who has H1 and H3 but they dont so mtDNA H was not spread in the Neolithic age

 

[ElHorsto]

i think the first caucasin settlers of north africa had some globe13 austomnal DNA med because they have no west asian which means they never really nter married with mid eastern people but they have about 30-40% med and al;so people around Arabia and isreal that is where the rgoup soutwest asian orignated north africans also have alot of southwest Asian so the group that settled north Africa probably came from arabia and since southwest asian and med are brothers i bet the med group originated in arabia

This is also my reasoning more-or-less.

i still dont think meditreaen was in europe till the Mesolithic age it had to come from non european inter marraieg all f europe was already settled by people with 100% north european then they inter married with people who had med
and actulley all the austomnal DNA tests i have looked at north africans usulley have a big amount of european blood in globe13 austomnal DNA they have about 6% north european in another test it said they had over 20% but in all the tests they had no west asian about 15,000 ybp people from spain migrated to north africa and about 25-35% of north africans have mtDNA H1,H3,V, and U5b all of these are europeans they estimate that they arrived in north Africa from spain over 10,000ybp

and 12,000 year old bones in north Africa two had specifically European mtDNA V this group actuality originate in Spain 15,000ybp and is associated with the Iberian refuge they also migrated acroos most of europe here is a link that explains ithttp://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28819-Iberian-DNA-from-20-000-4-340-years-ago-exactly-like-modern-Europeans

most of the remains had mtDNA H and from 3 mtDNA samples in spain from 15,000ybp two of three had mtDNA H one had H6 and from 9 mtDNA samples in mesloithci portugal from 9,500ybp 5 had mtDNA H one 2 had H1b there is also a 20,000 year old bone in spain that had for sure mtDNA RO which is teh grandmother of H mtDNA RO is very old about 50,000 it is almost only found in arabia today and no mtDNA haplogroups ine urope ar edirect decendants so mtDNA Ro probably never migrated to Europe the possiblity is it had RO's daughter HV or its granddaughter H also a 28,000 year old bone in south tip of italy had H so mtDNA H did not arrive in europe during teh neloithic anothe reason is the mtDNA H subclades that take up aout 40% of European mtDNA are H1,H2,H3,H6,H8,H11 these all orignated in europe and are very veyr rare in the mid east this means they did not arriuve there from teh mid east and the mtDNA H is Europe is not all the same subclades if it came form teh same migration ukraine which has H6,H2,H8 would have the same subclades as spain who has H1 and H3 but they dont so mtDNA H was not spread in the Neolithic age

Med component is mysterious. Globe13 seems to confirm K12b pretty well with a strong SW-european/NW-african to NE-european cline. It peaks in Europe (Sardinia), yet being distributed strongly along the Atlantic coast deep into the north and deep into the near-east (Druze). Samples from Neolithic farmers who are supposed to be of near-eastern origin are strikingly mediterranean. It could be that there was a second minor paleolithic population in Iberia or Italy which could not be isolated by any admixture analysis because it is either too mixed with pure North-Europeans (like Saami/Ajv52/Ajv70) and on the other end too mixed with neolithic farmers. In K12b a difference between La Brana sample and the Gotland hunter-gatherers becomes visible which could indicate such an additional unidentified element in the La Brana sample. The old iberian mtDNA HGs you mention could support his.

 

[kamani]

The Mediteranean component was E1b1b and J2 neolithic farmer men from Levant/Anatolia who mixed with the local European population. There is nothing mysterious about it. Because of it today all Southern Europe has about 10-30%(depending on region) near-eastern genes. Today you're looked down in Western Europe if you're Near Eastern, but that's all propaganda, most human development has come from the Near East; things such as agriculture, writing, math etc.

 

[Wilhelm]

and what do u mean by med is the most remote component in west eurasia i know that is is not centered anywhere it is pretty much equally spread out in europe, mid east, and north Africa it is most popular in europe

Med component is the most West-Eurasian one, since it forms a peak in the typical triangle-shape of world PCA plots, between East-Eurasia, West-Eurasia, and Sub-Sharan Africa.

and if med was a austomnal group that came to europe in paloithci or even mesloithci time sthen why dont finnish and sami have any med their ancestors have probably lived in scandnvai fro about 10,000 years and since sami have 50% mtDNA V which orignatated in spain and 50% mtDNA U5b their subclade originated in Spain sami and finnish migrated to Scandinavia from spain in the Mesolithic age over 10,000ybp but they have no med austomnal DNA

Yes, but remember there is also mtDNA H in mesolithic iberia, so it is definately related with autosomal mediterranean. Take in account that the autosomal components shared between Europe and north-africa is only the Med component, and it's not casuality that also north-africans have a lot of mtDNA H...so there is definately a connection between mtDNA H and the autosomal Med component, and it's at least from the Mesolithic.

 

[Knovas]

There's substantial Med component even in Scandinavia taking globe13 as reference (more than 25%), where we also find a lot of MtDNA H. So the connection seems pretty clear to me as Wilhelm says.

And by the way, one must believe in miracles to think this component emerged in the Near East or North Africa where there are virtually no barriers. Very difficult, not to say impossible, to be that well preserved as the PCA experiment and the Fst distances show.

 

[Knovas]

The Mediteranean component was E1b1b and J2 neolithic farmer men from Levant/Anatolia who mixed with the local European population. There is nothing mysterious about it.

Really? then you know a lot more than all the academic community. To start with, no J2 findings corresponding to the Neolithic period in Europe, nor even the Bronze Age. E1b1b is the joker: fits everywhere. We'll see what happens if some Mesolithic E1b1b shows up lol

 

[ElHorsto]

And by the way, one must believe in miracles to think this component emerged in the Near East or North Africa where there are virtually no barriers. Very difficult, not to say impossible, to be that well preserved as the PCA experiment and the Fst distances show.

If even the North-European component came from the Near East (ultimately out-of-africa) then the Med. component could as well at least. It is the question when it happened. North-European is closer to the West-Asian component like the Atlantic_med is closer to the South-West-Asian, as also Fire Headed said.
I also find it actually amazing how low the Sub-Saharan influence in North Africa is still today.
For instance the Arabian penisula as possible med. source/refuge is enough isolated by the Red Sea and Persian Gulf and the shortest path from there to Iberia would be North Africa (besides euro-mediterranean).

 

[kamani]

Really? then you know a lot more than all the academic community. To start with, no J2 findings corresponding to the Neolithic period in Europe, nor even the Bronze Age. E1b1b is the joker: fits everywhere. We'll see what happens if some Mesolithic E1b1b shows up lol

You speak in the name of the academic community about this, but you seem to be uninformed. Two significant studies were Semino 2000 and Rosser 2000, which identified haplogroups J2 and E1b1b (formerly E3b) as the putative genetic signatures of migrating Neolithic farmers from Anatolia.

 

[Knovas]

If even the North-European component came from the Near East (ultimately out-of-africa) then the Med. component could as well at least. It is the question when it happened. North-European is closer to the West-Asian component like the Atlantic_med is closer to the South-West-Asian, as also Fire Headed said.
I also find it actually amazing how low the Sub-Saharan influence in North Africa is still today.
For instance the Arabian penisula as possible med. source/refuge is enough isolated by the Red Sea and Persian Gulf and the shortest path from there to Iberia would be North Africa (besides euro-mediterranean).

It doesn't matter Mediterranean is closer to Southwest Asian. What basically show the Fst distances and the PCA plot, is that Southwest Asian is Mediterranean + something else added. Med still falls at the top of the West Eurasian peak, meaning that it's the less admixed cluster.

And I don't think the red sea was a problem, first because people could easily cross from Northeast Africa, and second because its water is extremly calm compared to the Mediterranean sea. While the Persian Gulf on the other hand it's useless in that sense, since it's not that far to go on foot from the Gedrosia Area to the Near East...nomadic lifestyle definetely achieves the goal generation after generation, and I highly doubt it took that long to reach the Peninsula.

 

[Knovas]

You speak in the name of the academic community about this, but you seem to be uninformed. Two significant studies were Semino 2000 and Rosser 2000, which identified haplogroups J2 and E1b1b (formerly E3b) as the putative genetic signatures of migrating Neolithic farmers from Anatolia.

I am enough informed to not trust Wikipedia and its year 2000 references, which are extremely outdated. The only fact is that no Neolithic J2 was found at present, and that E1b1b could still be older. What we know is that E1b1b was present, at least, since the Neolithic. It doesn't mean it couldn't have been in Europe before.

Concerning J2, we'll continue the discussion when something comes out.

 

[Yetos]

Really? then you know a lot more than all the academic community. To start with, no J2 findings corresponding to the Neolithic period in Europe, nor even the Bronze Age. E1b1b is the joker: fits everywhere. We'll see what happens if some Mesolithic E1b1b shows up lol

and that is the problem in Balkans,

cause the most closer genetical and geographical ancient E found is 4000 years old in Konya, no neolithic J2 found, but we find R1a aged 5500 BC!!!!!

so Vinca culture was only G2 people? plus I1? or R1a coexisted?

BALKANS HAVE NO MESOLITHIC, ONLY EPIPALEOLITHIC.

meaning that Neolithic populations were autodeveloped mostly than migrated,

 

[Fire Haired]

and that is the problem in Balkans,

cause the most closer genetical and geographical ancient E found is 4000 years old in Konya, no neolithic J2 found, but we find R1a aged 5500 BC!!!!!

so Vinca culture was only G2 people? plus I1? or R1a coexisted?

BALKANS HAVE NO MESOLITHIC, ONLY EPIPALEOLITHIC.

meaning that Neolithic populations were autodeveloped mostly than migrated,

are u saying they really have a 4,000 year old Y DNA sample i the balknes ad a Y DA R1a sample from 5,500bc i would love to see where u are finding these results

 

[Tabaccus Maximus]

Spell check please. The errors distract from your message.

Strange that a guy who apparently reads so much can't construct a sentence?? I've commented on this guy before and it should be noted that the apparent typos are not typical keyboard errors. Either someone is disguising their identity or someone is ********. Sorry, that's the beer talking.

 

[nordicwarrior]

In F.H.'s defense, he has shown great improvement in his more recent communications-- he now uses paragraph breaks which is incredibly helpful in figuring out his points. The guy obviously has some critical thinking skills that many of us lack, maybe he's wired differently. Definitely somewhat of a mystery though.

 

[nordicwarrior]

I realize Tabaccus that there's a chance you might be referring to myself (I have mentioned some literary works here on Eupedia.) If that's the case, no worries because even if I'm lucky enough to construct and post an understandable sentence every now and again... there's no use in trying to deny that I'm am an absolute ********.