What samples are you using?Concerning the Central-East Asian admixture: Such admixture was surely present, even higher in Transylvania (early Szekler for example), but that its pretty widespread among Romanians speaks for a more Southern/Eastern source of the admixture imho.
If I use Dai, which is not the closest fitting reference anyway, but just for the argument and as a quick shot, you see that practically all Romanians get it. Its not that high, but its noticeable even in comparison to some of the direct neighbours, therefore it should be something real for the early ethnogenesis:
Origin of the Eastern Romance or Vlach Peoples
- Thread starter Nicu
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The standard G25 Romanian and Moldovan samples:
eurogenes.blogspot.com
As a tendency, the Romanian samples from G25 might have a bit more German and Hungarian admixture than the Moldovans. Especially sample A374 has a minor but significant Central European pull.
Getting the most out of the Global25
The first thing you need to know about the Global25 is that I update the relevant datasheets regularly, usually every few weeks, but they'r...
eurogenes.blogspot.com
As a tendency, the Romanian samples from G25 might have a bit more German and Hungarian admixture than the Moldovans. Especially sample A374 has a minor but significant Central European pull.
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Yo use dorkymon project it has more samples https://geneticaromd.github.io/adn/database.html I heard that the g25 samples are not inaccurate for Romanians especially MoldovansThe standard G25 Romanian and Moldovan samples:
Getting the most out of the Global25
The first thing you need to know about the Global25 is that I update the relevant datasheets regularly, usually every few weeks, but they'r...
I primarily use G25 and if I convert I usually do it with Eurogenes K36. Too bad no easy copy & paste is possible with that format. In any case, you see in his samples that the East Asian-Siberian-Amerindian is increased for a Central and SEE context.
Their is tool where you can convert k13 to g25 it's free too
I know, I just prefer K36 and for using it I have to type it manually, since I can't just copy & paste the block unless I play with an excel first. But I might take a closer look anyway.
Interesting that Maramures/Satu Mare has the highest German shift among the Romanians.
Idk about vlachs and cumans mixing because modern Romanians doesn't get any turkic only some north east Romanians doAlso as I was reading Capidan lately, he seems to find more old calque's and isogloses between Romanian and Albanian than between Aromanian/Meglen-Vlach and Albanian like for example the rotacism r -> n which is more prevalent in Romanian and Istro-Romanian than in the other two eastern Romance languages.
Which is quite interesting by itself and which could be showing a close relationship between Albanians and Romanians quite late and even after the split which likely took place in the 9th or 10th century.
My believe is that there was a common border between the Albanians and the Romanians somewhere in south-east Serbia.
From
Ilona Czamańska
(Adam Mickiewicz University in Poznań)
Vlachs and Slavs in the Middle Ages and Modern Era
The author here makes very good point. The Bulgarian Empire didn't exist for more than a century when these accounts were made. What was known as Bulgaria in the 11th, 12th and 13th century was the Byzantine themata of Bulgaria which was situated mainly in present North Macedonia, Eastern Serbia and Western Bulgaria:
The author just makes one mistake when assumes this province of Vlachia was somewhere in the vicinity of modern Kumanovo in North Macedonia because of the specific name related to the Cumans. What was Cumania back then was modern Valachia in South Romania. Accordingly, this province Vlachia must have been situated in the northern regions of the Byzantine themata of Bulgaria or modern Eastern Serbia and north-western Bulgaria and directly bordering Danube and modern Valachia which was of course Cumania back in the 12th century.
So the Vlachs mentioned in these accounts are most likely direct ancestors of the modern Romanians.
These would explain the close relationship between these Vlachs and the Cumans and why more often than not they were mentioned together in the historical accounts as some sort of hybrid Vlach-Cuman race as by the time Cumans disappeared, the Romanian Vlachs started massively to settle north of Danube and intermingling with these Cumans.
These process probably already started in the 11th century with the breakup of the First Bulgarian Empire.
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From
Ilona Czamańska
(Adam Mickiewicz University in Poznań)
Vlachs and Slavs in the Middle Ages and Modern Era
The author here makes very good point. The Bulgarian Empire didn't exist for more than a century when these accounts were made. What was known as Bulgaria in the 11th, 12th and 13th century was the Byzantine themata of Bulgaria which was situated mainly in present North Macedonia, Eastern Serbia and Western Bulgaria:
I read that curtea de arges Wallachia first capital was built in 1200s so in my opinion vlachs had to come before 13 centuryFrom
Ilona Czamańska
(Adam Mickiewicz University in Poznań)
Vlachs and Slavs in the Middle Ages and Modern Era
The author here makes very good point. The Bulgarian Empire didn't exist for more than a century when these accounts were made. What was known as Bulgaria in the 11th, 12th and 13th century was the Byzantine themata of Bulgaria which was situated mainly in present North Macedonia, Eastern Serbia and Western Bulgaria:
The author just makes one mistake when assumes this province of Vlachia was somewhere in the vicinity of modern Kumanovo in North Macedonia because of the specific name related to the Cumans. What was Cumania back then was modern Valachia in South Romania. Accordingly, this province Vlachia must have been situated in the northern regions of the Byzantine themata of Bulgaria or modern Eastern Serbia and north-western Bulgaria and directly bordering Danube and modern Valachia which was of course Cumania back in the 12th century.
So the Vlachs mentioned in these accounts are most likely direct ancestors of the modern Romanians.
These would explain the close relationship between these Vlachs and the Cumans and why more often than not they were mentioned together in the historical accounts as some sort of hybrid Vlach-Cuman race as by the time Cumans disappeared, the Romanian Vlachs started massively to settle north of Danube and intermingling with these Cumans.
These process probably already started in the 11th century with the breakup of the First Bulgarian Empire.
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The K13 coordinates plot OK on the PCA, but in the admixture runs they are not directly compatible with regular G25, because they rather pick up other K13 converts than G25 regulars and the same is true vice versa.
However, among themselves, these K13 coordinates seem to be comparable and they plot reasonably well (not perfect) on the PCA.
I therefore made first a custom PCA for the Romanian samples:
One can see the dense cluster for the Romanian core and those which deviate in a Southern (Moldova Gagauzia and Tighina), Slavic (Moldova Balti), Hungarian (Maramures) and German (Satu Mare) direction.
In the centre of the Romanian core is clearly Oltenia in my opinion.
The next thing I did was using Oltenia as the core group and all the main minorities and neighbours as additional references for an admixture run - of course they are not all ideal, but like I wrote before, regular G25 don't get picked up as much. With regular G25 one could use German Erlangen, Hungarian, Russian Kursk and Greek Laconia as proxies, but because of the different original formats, that doesn't work as well.
This was the result of the admixture run sorted by Oltenia-like percentages:
For some models it causes troubles to differentiate between Slavic, Hungarian and German, because Hungarian is to large degree a mix of German and Slavic, and even the Southern admixture is similar to Romanians.
Anyway, I think its a nice approach and the Oltenia sample is really a good representative for core Romanian, with many other regions showing varying degrees of admixture from the neighbours and minorities.
However, among themselves, these K13 coordinates seem to be comparable and they plot reasonably well (not perfect) on the PCA.
I therefore made first a custom PCA for the Romanian samples:
One can see the dense cluster for the Romanian core and those which deviate in a Southern (Moldova Gagauzia and Tighina), Slavic (Moldova Balti), Hungarian (Maramures) and German (Satu Mare) direction.
In the centre of the Romanian core is clearly Oltenia in my opinion.
The next thing I did was using Oltenia as the core group and all the main minorities and neighbours as additional references for an admixture run - of course they are not all ideal, but like I wrote before, regular G25 don't get picked up as much. With regular G25 one could use German Erlangen, Hungarian, Russian Kursk and Greek Laconia as proxies, but because of the different original formats, that doesn't work as well.
This was the result of the admixture run sorted by Oltenia-like percentages:
For some models it causes troubles to differentiate between Slavic, Hungarian and German, because Hungarian is to large degree a mix of German and Slavic, and even the Southern admixture is similar to Romanians.
Anyway, I think its a nice approach and the Oltenia sample is really a good representative for core Romanian, with many other regions showing varying degrees of admixture from the neighbours and minorities.
Oltenia and my opinion arges county makes sense as the core Romanian core because that were the earliest vlachs leaders were mentionedThe K13 coordinates plot OK on the PCA, but in the admixture runs they are not directly compatible with regular G25, because they rather pick up other K13 converts than G25 regulars and the same is true vice versa.
However, among themselves, these K13 coordinates seem to be comparable and they plot reasonably well (not perfect) on the PCA.
I therefore made first a custom PCA for the Romanian samples:
One can see the dense cluster for the Romanian core and those which deviate in a Southern (Moldova Gagauzia and Tighina), Slavic (Moldova Balti), Hungarian (Maramures) and German (Satu Mare) direction.
In the centre of the Romanian core is clearly Oltenia in my opinion.
The next thing I did was using Oltenia as the core group and all the main minorities and neighbours as additional references for an admixture run - of course they are not all ideal, but like I wrote before, regular G25 don't get picked up as much. With regular G25 one could use German Erlangen, Hungarian, Russian Kursk and Greek Laconia as proxies, but because of the different original formats, that doesn't work as well.
This was the result of the admixture run sorted by Oltenia-like percentages:
For some models it causes troubles to differentiate between Slavic, Hungarian and German, because Hungarian is to large degree a mix of German and Slavic, and even the Southern admixture is similar to Romanians.
Anyway, I think its a nice approach and the Oltenia sample is really a good representative for core Romanian, with many other regions showing varying degrees of admixture from the neighbours and minorities.
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You should be Bucharest there. It be cool where they plot on this pcaAnother (standard) PCA (Europe1):
Note the pretty tight cluster close to Oltenia and the outliers at the fringes.
Bucharest is between the two Oltenia samples I used, while Teleorman is a bit more Southern:
Nicu
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Oh of course. I never meant to imply otherwise. I tried to choose my words carefully to convey that while it is closer to Romanian than Aromanian *is*, it is not closer to Romanian than it is to Aromanian. Maybe some people do misinterpret that, yes.
But it is interesting that what eventually became standard (northern/"Daco") Romanian may have had a longer time alongside proto-Albanian than Aromanian did? Even though now Aromanian has drawn closer to it in some ways (at least the variant there in Albania), like in Moscopole or Voskopojë.
Right, although I suppose it indicated the political dominance and leadership the Cumans had in the area, rather than really implying they were some truly hybrid racial group like something you would find in Central Asia, as they didn't make a lot of impact on them genetically or were just a smaller group among a larger native population. I don't think the area north of the Danube when the Vlachs arrived were pure Cumans from the steppes by any account, just that the people there were referred to in chronicles as Cumans due to the current elites' culture and language (but again, why are there so very few words from non-Turkish Turkic in Romanian then?). But northern Bulgaria was known as Vlachia; I thought it was a joint sort of union or cooperation between the Vlachs and Bulgarians there? And Peter and Asen of the Second Bulgarian Empire being possibly of Vlach or partial descent.
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Yeah I think so too. My background is from Oltenia (my dad's fam from Caracal and Craiova) and my mom's mostly from Turnu Severin, although she also has some Aromanian from Greek Macedonia that moved to Romania in the late 19th cent.
Here's an Oltenian folk dance
And a folk costume from the region
But I guess all these Balkan dances have a common theme
The Calusari is one famous acrobatic dance that is often done in the Oltenia (and other Romanian regions), and apparently the dance has also spread to Bulgaria and North Macedonia
But you get Vlach vibes in different regions all over the country. Parts of Ardeal even have similar fiddle sounds with the strange Balkan time signatures that you also find in southern Vlach music from what I heard. Like some from the Tara Motilor area here
Nicu
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The bagpipe and flute is also found in different Vlach and Romanian music, attesting to the importance of sheep in these cultures (using the stomachs as the bags)
Romanian bagpipe (cimpoi, or sometimes gaida regionally)
Here are some Vlachs from northern Serbia (but these are very closely connected to southwestern Romania itself, in the Banat and Oltenia regions. It's uncertain whether they moved from there to Serbia in like the 17th-18th century of if they always existed there in parallel and maintained a similar dialect.
I also have seen some folk songs in Megleno and Aromanian that have similar patterns, lyrics, and themes to ones in Romania, although they have different influences and kind of go in a different direction sometimes. It's interesting. I think some of that was due to later cross-influences of transhumant shepherds who moved north and south. I'd have to find some good specific examples.
By the way here is a page on the Common or Proto Romanian language, although it still needs work
en.wikipedia.org
Here are some Vlachs from northern Serbia (but these are very closely connected to southwestern Romania itself, in the Banat and Oltenia regions. It's uncertain whether they moved from there to Serbia in like the 17th-18th century of if they always existed there in parallel and maintained a similar dialect.
I also have seen some folk songs in Megleno and Aromanian that have similar patterns, lyrics, and themes to ones in Romania, although they have different influences and kind of go in a different direction sometimes. It's interesting. I think some of that was due to later cross-influences of transhumant shepherds who moved north and south. I'd have to find some good specific examples.
By the way here is a page on the Common or Proto Romanian language, although it still needs work
Common Romanian - Wikipedia
Vlachs from Serbia are pretty close to Romanians from oltenia and banat genetic wise
MandM
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If onley more Romanians and The "Vlach" in The balkans took more dna test that som we could see what subclade of haplogroups they have, that would help tremendously.
On myheritage I know that manay Aromanias get Romania at least middle to high on genetic group confidence level