New map of R1b-ht35 (L23, L51, L11, Z2103)

Maciamo said:
Here is a new map showing the Proto-Indo-European R1b, as well Greek and Anatolian branches of Indo-European people, including the Hittites, Lydians, Phrygians and Armenians. The Trojans also probably belonged to this group.
Click to expand...

Is there any ancient y-dna data that confirms this?
Which population brought ht35 to Greece? Was it the Mycenaeans, Arcadians, Ionians or the Dorians? Also, what about the Pelasgians? Little is known about them, and according to historians the Pelasgian population mixed with the subsequent waves of migrants, therefore it is hard to know who they were genetically. And if the Ionians or the Dorians brought R1b to Greece, then who brought J2? (which is carried by a huge part of the population, ancient and modern as indicated by its presence in most areas associated with ancient Greek colonisation).
I am not questioning or doubting your statement, just thinking out loudly, as I have been wondering about this for some time.
 
kostop said:
Is there any ancient y-dna data that confirms this?
Which population brought ht35 to Greece? Was it the Mycenaeans, Arcadians, Ionians or the Dorians? Also, what about the Pelasgians? Little is known about them, and according to historians the Pelasgian population mixed with the subsequent waves of migrants, therefore it is hard to know who they were genetically. And if the Ionians or the Dorians brought R1b to Greece, then who brought J2? (which is carried by a huge part of the population, ancient and modern as indicated by its presence in most areas associated with ancient Greek colonisation).
I am not questioning or doubting your statement, just thinking out loudly, as I have been wondering about this for some time.
Click to expand...

Yes there are links to show. Under ten post count will not allow me to show links. If you like I can pm you. However the map should be updated especially the Eastern regions, like Mede proper where no R1b L51 has been found. It is important to make this distinction as it is a different branch altogether found also in Africa at various elevated frequencies unlike R1b Z2103. R1b Z2103 is found in: Ancient Mede proper/Ancient Assyrians /Ancient Greece proper including Lashitti plateau, and Aegean Islands / Ancient Anatolia/Armenia proper /Albania/ Bulgaria/Moldavia/Ukraine(also called Trans-Dniestr or Transdniestria region)/Komi/Ossetian, Digor/Bashkir/Northern Pakistan.
 
Silesian said:
Yes there are links to show. Under ten post count will not allow me to show links. If you like I can pm you. However the map should be updated especially the Eastern regions, like Mede proper where no R1b L51 has been found. It is important to make this distinction as it is a different branch altogether found also in Africa at various elevated frequencies unlike R1b Z2103. R1b Z2103 is found in: Ancient Mede proper/Ancient Assyrians /Ancient Greece proper including Lashitti plateau, and Aegean Islands / Ancient Anatolia/Armenia proper /Albania/ Bulgaria/Moldavia/Ukraine(also called Trans-Dniestr or Transdniestria region)/Komi/Ossetian, Digor/Bashkir/Northern Pakistan.
Click to expand...

That is very interesting. If you could pm the links it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
 
kostop said:
That is very interesting. If you could pm the links it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Click to expand...
Various studies have different size data sets. In order to see spikes you can compare multiple studies. For example.

Im not at 10 posts so it restricts me from posting links here is an example. Yes will p.m.
[TABLE="class: wikitable sortable jquery-tablesorter"]
[TR]
[TH][/TH]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Silesian said:
Various studies have different size data sets. In order to see spikes you can compare multiple studies. For example.

Im not at 10 posts so it restricts me from posting links here is an example. Yes will p.m.
[TABLE="class: wikitable sortable jquery-tablesorter"]
[TR]
[TH][/TH]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...

Thanks, much appreciated.
 
The place of Armenian in the Indo-European language family: the relationship with Greek and Indo-Iranian*
The material presented here, albeit not exhaustive, allows to preliminarily conclude that Armenian, Greek, (Phrygian) and Indo-Iranian were dialectally close to each other. Within this hypothetical dialect group, Proto-Armenian was situated between Proto-Greek (to the west) and Proto-Indo-Iranian (to the east).
Click to expand...
http://exadmin.matita.net/uploads/pagine/246390155_Martirosyan_PlaceArmen_JLR_2013_FINAL.pdf


Karabakh and Syunik--

it shows a 15% concentration of R1b1a2a in a Northern swath of Anatolia - with a peak of 25% in the middle of the swath. The studies on which the map makers drew sampled broadly in the region including Turks, Kurds, Georgians and Azeris. If you sample only Armenians, you get a concentration of 30% of R1b1a2. If you sample only Armenians from Karabakh and Syunik you get concentrations of more than 40%.
Click to expand...

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=news




 
greek&phoeniciancolonies.jpg







Areas in Anatolia where Greek colonies were also had Hittites and Phrygians.

Southwestern Anatolian languages

Anatolian_03.png



The Hittites called it the Maraššantiya. It formed the western boundary of Hatti, the core land of the Hittite empire.
Click to expand...


Turkey-kizilirmak.svg
 
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0056775

Table S6 you can get a broad sample data set of R1b L23[51] and then parse results with other studies showing elevated results among groups or in general regions.

For example you can parse data set by comparing 2 or more studies,in Arabian Peninsula showing 1.67% R1b-L23 Rib in A.P. column and compare with recent Grugni et al study, in North Western Iran.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0041252

Groups like Azeri/Gilaki/Lurs some located in same region as Armenian R1b. and Talysh in Roewer et al study.

Bakht 46 7% Indo-Iranian (IE) Luri Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh 18 44% Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh Roewer et al.
Gilak 43 23% Indo-Iranian (IE) Gilaki Roewer et al.
Mazan 46 15% Indo-Iranian (IE) Mazandarani Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh 43 19% Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh Roewer et al.
 
MACIAMO, I would like a map of percentages of Y-R1b-L51* and L-51 downtreams compared to Y-R1b-L23* and upstreams: it would be even more striking, would not it?
 
Sile said:
Too late for Colchians? or not

- seems like some type of maritime people from the Black Sea.
- The southern Italy, Peloponnese, albania fits with the Greek Corinthian settlements. Maybe carried along later with phoenicians ( but I see NO central and western North African numbers
Click to expand...

what link with Phoenicians??? look at the Lebanon %s!
 
Looks to me like L23 was spread by an R1b form of proto-Armenians or something....I'm surprised by the frequencies across Craq and Iran....can anyone tell me more about the origins of R1b-L23?
 
An italian page is collecting samples from all Italy and this subclade is founded in Reggio Calabria and Catania (and one case near Foggia). Greek heritage?
 
L11* is too old and undefined for my purposes of Genetic Genealogy BUT I have been "Name Origin" mapping with a group under P311+ CTS4528/DF100 the results have been mapped on my project site. So far the results show a young Flemish group and an older group that splits between British Isles and Germany - this study is ongoing and dynamic so may change as we gather more samples but is interesting nonetheless.

DF100 & CTS4528 & S14328 Private Genetic Genealogy Project Manager

sites.google.com/site/cts4528/
 
Hauteville said:
An italian page is collecting samples from all Italy and this subclade is founded in Reggio Calabria and Catania (and one case near Foggia). Greek heritage?
Click to expand...

I'm the case near Foggia. But there is a question: Northern Apulia wasn't colonized by greeks. The only greek colony in Apulia is Taranto, quite far from Cerignola and Andria (homeland of Montingelli, my surname). Any answers? than kyou
 
Yes i would expect this subclade more common in Taranto and the Salento (Gallipoli, Otranto, Santa Maria di Leuca was also greek colonies and in Salento there are today 10.000 greek-speaking http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoranza_linguistica_greca_d'Italia) perhaps (it's my opinion eh) your ancestor on paternal side was from Taranto or Salento. It's difficult to say but expect other opinions.
 
Hauteville said:
Yes i would expect this subclade more common in Taranto and the Salento (Gallipoli, Otranto, Santa Maria di Leuca was also greek colonies and in Salento there are today 10.000 greek-speaking perhaps (it's my opinion eh) your ancestor on paternal side was from Taranto or Salento. It's difficult to say but expect other opinions.
Click to expand...

Maybe..but in Northern Apulia greeks didn't settle...any other influences? Roman bring only R1b-U152?
 
I've noticed that L23 seems to be more common where the people from Chalkis founded colonies in Magna Grecia.
 
Hauteville said:
I've noticed that L23 seems to be more common where the people from Chalkis founded colonies in Magna Grecia.
Click to expand...

Chalkis?

(Hai facebook? così ne parliamo di là)
 
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