New map of haplogroup T

The Desert Fox said:
Thanks Adamo. I am still waiting to hear back from 2 of the administrators on the Wiki site about the missing sources for some of their data, but I have managed to make some progress on some of them myself.
1. Scandinavian data - Karlsson et al (2006) Eur.J.Hum.Genet. 14, 963-970.
We have: GOTLAND (2/40 = 5%), UPPSALA (1/55 = 2%), BLEKINGE (1/41 = 2%), VASTERBOTTEN (1/41 = 2%). This is based on the (reasonable) assumption that K*(xN,P) is all T & the contribution from any haplo L folks is small.
Earlier Jorgensen et al (2004) Hum. Genet. 115, 19-28 is where the Faroes and Danish data comes from: We find from their distribution map: FAROE ISLANDS (2/89 = 2%), DENMARK (3/62 = 5%). Also NORWAY (4/157 = 3%), ICELAND (2/181 = 1%), average for SWEDEN (9/110 = 8%), again based on that assumption. The results for Gotland and Sweden seem to reinforce the other data Wiki quotes for Malmo (1/29 = 3%) and Orebo (1/32 = 3%). Couldn't find the source of the Shetlands data but it does ties in with the Faroes.
2. The data showing very high levels in SOUTH GERMANY/BAVARIA looks genuine (4/17 = 24% - this extremely high level must be due to drift), from Pichler et al (2006) Human Biology, 441–464, and reinforces the data for Alsace (4/80 = 5%) and other data quoted in the region. I've not yet been able to find the source of Wiki's northern German data based on BERLIN (4/103 = 4%) or the HOLLAND (1/18 = 6%) and FLEMISH data (1/42 = 2% and 2/119 = 2%) but hope to hear from the moderators about that. I've been shown data from a Kurdistan led study showing significant levels of L299 in northern Europe (including Holland, Denmark and Lithuania) but that has not been published yet. And according to the Geno2 report I was given for L299 it describes significant levels also in Holland and England. So in all, the distribution map shown by Wiki seems reasonable. Our own subclade in England (based on the distributions of the surnames of folks we know who belong to our group) seem to follow an East to north west cline. In short, I think the Wiki map is OK, at least from a North European perspective.
Whatever, I think the otherwise excellent map on this page should be revised to take into proper account us Northerners.
To me, it seems from the evidence so far that the T's came into Europe via Anatolia, and one group headed through Greece and onto Germany and northwards to Scandinavia and Eastern Britain and northern isles, another group headed through Italy, Southern France (the proportions there seem overestimated) and Iberia. A further group headed from SW Asia northwards through the Crimea. Speculative at the moment but we await the full findings from Geno 2 with interest.
Of course I maybe just another old Northern European having a grumble!
Click to expand...

The Desert Fox said:
Thanks Adamo. I am still waiting to hear back from 2 of the administrators on the Wiki site about the missing sources for some of their data, but I have managed to make some progress on some of them myself.
1. Scandinavian data - Karlsson et al (2006) Eur.J.Hum.Genet. 14, 963-970.
We have: GOTLAND (2/40 = 5%), UPPSALA (1/55 = 2%), BLEKINGE (1/41 = 2%), VASTERBOTTEN (1/41 = 2%). This is based on the (reasonable) assumption that K*(xN,P) is all T & the contribution from any haplo L folks is small.
Click to expand...

When T was formed from K2 in 2008 the data above was recalculated and the following was the result - note I will use T-L299 for T1a and T-L131 for T1b

Gotland and Blekinge was 100% T1b low diversity
Vasterbotten was joined with Jutland and was 100% T1b
Uppsala unsure , but I have Uusimaa as 100% T1a

Earlier Jorgensen et al (2004) Hum. Genet. 115, 19-28 is where the Faroes and Danish data comes from: We find from their distribution map: FAROE ISLANDS (2/89 = 2%), DENMARK (3/62 = 5%). Also NORWAY (4/157 = 3%), ICELAND (2/181 = 1%), average for SWEDEN (9/110 = 8%), again based on that assumption. The results for Gotland and Sweden seem to reinforce the other data Wiki quotes for Malmo (1/29 = 3%) and Orebo (1/32 = 3%). Couldn't find the source of the Shetlands data but it does ties in with the Faroes.
Click to expand...

Shetland is 100% T1b
Faroe is in a 2006 report about vikings.....I can get it...........person by the name of Jamieson
Norway, 2 I know are T1b
Baltic Prussia ..........50% for both T1a and T1b

2. The data showing very high levels in SOUTH GERMANY/BAVARIA looks genuine (4/17 = 24% - this extremely high level must be due to drift), from Pichler et al (2006) Human Biology, 441–464, and reinforces the data for Alsace (4/80 = 5%) and other data quoted in the region. I've not yet been able to find the source of Wiki's northern German data based on BERLIN (4/103 = 4%) or the HOLLAND (1/18 = 6%) and FLEMISH data (1/42 = 2% and 2/119 = 2%) but hope to hear from the moderators about that. I've been shown data from a Kurdistan led study showing significant levels of L299 in northern Europe (including Holland, Denmark and Lithuania) but that has not been published yet. And according to the Geno2 report I was given for L299 it describes significant levels also in Holland and England. So in all, the distribution map shown by Wiki seems reasonable. Our own subclade in England (based on the distributions of the surnames of folks we know who belong to our group) seem to follow an East to north west cline. In short, I think the Wiki map is OK, at least from a North European perspective.
Click to expand...

Benelux is 50% each for T1a and T1b
Central Germany...( must be Berlin ) 71% T1a and 29% T1b.....high diversity
Czech, south Tyrol and slovenia is 100% T1a
Trento, friuli and veneto ( and Ladin areas) is 50% each for T1a and T1b

Whatever, I think the otherwise excellent map on this page should be revised to take into proper account us Northerners.
To me, it seems from the evidence so far that the T's came into Europe via Anatolia, and one group headed through Greece and onto Germany and northwards to Scandinavia and Eastern Britain and northern isles, another group headed through Italy, Southern France (the proportions there seem overestimated) and Iberia. A further group headed from SW Asia northwards through the Crimea. Speculative at the moment but we await the full findings from Geno 2 with interest.
Of course I maybe just another old Northern European having a grumble!
Click to expand...

agree, with the added 2 routes..........Bulgaria and Romania through the Danube and
to Estonia as part of the paper for the Baltic jump zone


EDIT - Read from page 35 ..........you can calculate what they are using a ypredictor ( for faroe and shetland and iceland)
http://www.davidkfaux.org/CentralAsiaRootsofScandinavia-Y-DNAEvidence.pdf
 
Yes I agree that Northern Europe and Europe in General seems to have a lot of T1b; the oldest forms of T1b thus far have been detected in turkey; most Bakhtiaris, Kuwaitis, and half of Turkish and Saudi Arabian samples are T1b.
 
I mean that he little percentage of T there is is predominantly T1b.
 
Whereas T1a has a more Mediterranean spread and all across the Middle East of course; virtually all Armenian, Chechen, lurs, Lebanese, Syrian, Egyptian and many other areas are mostly T1a's. Saudi Arabia, turkey and western parts of Iran are split fifty-fifty between T1b and T1a; the Bakhtiaris are predominantly T1b whereas the Lurs are 100% T1a.
 
map of T marker...only 67 and above markers noted..............seems like this site ignore the lesser tested ones



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
 
The Desert Fox said:
Thanks Adamo. I am still waiting to hear back from 2 of the administrators on the Wiki site about the missing sources for some of their data, but I have managed to make some progress on some of them myself.
1. Scandinavian data - Karlsson et al (2006) Eur.J.Hum.Genet. 14, 963-970.
We have: GOTLAND (2/40 = 5%), UPPSALA (1/55 = 2%), BLEKINGE (1/41 = 2%), VASTERBOTTEN (1/41 = 2%). This is based on the (reasonable) assumption that K*(xN,P) is all T & the contribution from any haplo L folks is small.
Earlier Jorgensen et al (2004) Hum. Genet. 115, 19-28 is where the Faroes and Danish data comes from: We find from their distribution map: FAROE ISLANDS (2/89 = 2%), DENMARK (3/62 = 5%). Also NORWAY (4/157 = 3%), ICELAND (2/181 = 1%), average for SWEDEN (9/110 = 8%), again based on that assumption. The results for Gotland and Sweden seem to reinforce the other data Wiki quotes for Malmo (1/29 = 3%) and Orebo (1/32 = 3%). Couldn't find the source of the Shetlands data but it does ties in with the Faroes.
2. The data showing very high levels in SOUTH GERMANY/BAVARIA looks genuine (4/17 = 24% - this extremely high level must be due to drift), from Pichler et al (2006) Human Biology, 441–464, and reinforces the data for Alsace (4/80 = 5%) and other data quoted in the region. I've not yet been able to find the source of Wiki's northern German data based on BERLIN (4/103 = 4%) or the HOLLAND (1/18 = 6%) and FLEMISH data (1/42 = 2% and 2/119 = 2%) but hope to hear from the moderators about that. I've been shown data from a Kurdistan led study showing significant levels of L299 in northern Europe (including Holland, Denmark and Lithuania) but that has not been published yet. And according to the Geno2 report I was given for L299 it describes significant levels also in Holland and England. So in all, the distribution map shown by Wiki seems reasonable. Our own subclade in England (based on the distributions of the surnames of folks we know who belong to our group) seem to follow an East to north west cline. In short, I think the Wiki map is OK, at least from a North European perspective.
Whatever, I think the otherwise excellent map on this page should be revised to take into proper account us Northerners.
To me, it seems from the evidence so far that the T's came into Europe via Anatolia, and one group headed through Greece and onto Germany and northwards to Scandinavia and Eastern Britain and northern isles, another group headed through Italy, Southern France (the proportions there seem overestimated) and Iberia. A further group headed from SW Asia northwards through the Crimea. Speculative at the moment but we await the full findings from Geno 2 with interest.
Of course I maybe just another old Northern European having a grumble!
Click to expand...

@MACIANO
you need to upgrade your T map to reflect the above data
 
So what do you read from this map Maciamo? In the Middle East I see and abundance of Turkish and Saudi ArabiansArabians
 
Sile said:
MACIANO
you need to upgrade your T map to reflect the above data
Click to expand...
MACIAMO - indeed it does need updating. We can then sit more proudly alongside our brothers from the South
 
The Desert Fox said:
MACIAMO - indeed it does need updating. We can then sit more proudly alongside our brothers from the South
Click to expand...

The old version from a few months ago had a much higher level of T in northern Europe. But after comibing all studies for every country, I noticed that the "hotspots" in some regions were simply due to sampling bias or the fact that people assumed that hg K in older studies was necessarily T, something that was disproved by newer studies. Overall there isn't a single North European country where T exceeds 1%, except Estonia, but I am confident that this is also a sampling bias and that later studies will also lower that percentage.

Over the years I have realised that the rarer a haplogroup is, the more important it is to have a large sample size to avoid sampling bias. For haplogroup T it is hard to trust data for any country if there is less than 1000 samples. Local peaks in tiny samples under 100 are not representative and indeed very misleading, which is why they should be ignored.

Studies published before 2010 (or some even after that) did not specifically test for T, but only for K, which may also includes L, N or actual K*. Therefore data from such studies should be taken with a pinch of salt and percentages of T always revised downward compared to K.
 
Sile said:
map of T marker...only 67 and above markers noted..............seems like this site ignore the lesser tested ones

Click to expand...

Maps of commercial samples are useless to know the actual frequency in each country and region because:

1) People in richer countries buy more commercial tests. This map makes it look like T is more common in the United Emirates and Saudi Arabia than in Iraq and Egypt, which is completely false.
2) Genetic genealogy is not equally popular between rich countries (e.g. far more popular in Britain than France). Based on this map it would appear that T is vastly more common in Britain, the Netherlands and Germany than in France, Spain and northern Italy, which is nonsense.
3) Commercial samples include a lot of colonial data of people who may not know for sure where their patrilinal ancestors came from (and even if they do, the chances of non-paternity event from someone with completely different roots would falsify the results).
4) A lot of commercial samples from Central and Eastern Europe are from Ashkenazi Jews and are not representative of the non-Jewish population of these countries. This is quite obvious on this map.
 
The massive maciamo with the appropriate comments
 
Maciamo said:
Maps of commercial samples are useless to know the actual frequency in each country and region because:

1) People in richer countries buy more commercial tests. This map makes it look like T is more common in the United Emirates and Saudi Arabia than in Iraq and Egypt, which is completely false.
2) Genetic genealogy is not equally popular between rich countries (e.g. far more popular in Britain than France). Based on this map it would appear that T is vastly more common in Britain, the Netherlands and Germany than in France, Spain and northern Italy, which is nonsense.
3) Commercial samples include a lot of colonial data of people who may not know for sure where their patrilinal ancestors came from (and even if they do, the chances of non-paternity event from someone with completely different roots would falsify the results).
4) A lot of commercial samples from Central and Eastern Europe are from Ashkenazi Jews and are not representative of the non-Jewish population of these countries. This is quite obvious on this map.
Click to expand...

Just to clarify and not alter your arguement, the map contains only 67 markers and above and only gathered from FTDNA and 1000genomes ( if thats how you spell it)

My aim is to find out who brought the T into europe , we can guess the south being Phoenician, but the north?

And T will diminish in percentage even though the numbers will increase for T as more people do DNA test ............that's a fact
 
Good comments although t is found in 8-10% of omanis and emirians and is certainly present in saudis as well. Can someone please try to decipher the snp values i posted; ZERO matches on ftdna.
 
@Desert Fox

You are after British T marked people, then go to internet....Ftdna T project..........then map....use scroll bar until you get to Gamma-2-C predicted L131+. it will show you 39 out of 43 in europe to be in britain...plus another 20 in the northern USA

Only issue is that you are not L131


Are they Picts ? or Gaels...........I would laugh if they are
 
I have found one individual on genographic project with T-M272+ from the Caucasus of Avar origin; the Avars are said to have resided anciently in the Khorasan region of Iran near the afghan border, this would make sense.
 
Recently saw a map showing 0% T in northern Lebanon and 5% in the south (both these regions had 20% J1.) 1% T in northern Syria and 8% in the south (the north has about 27% J1 whereas the south oddly showed only 12%.) Eastern Turkey had 6% T and Israel had 7% (both regions had about 10% J1). Yemen had 4% T and 35% J1. Western Iran on the Iraqi border has 13% T and 11% J1. East central Iraq has 11% T and 16% J1 whereas west central Iraq has 14% T and 16% J1. Northeastern Iraq had 6% T whereas northwestern Iraq had a whopping 19% T and 22% J1.. THe extreme north of Iraq on the Turkish border shows 15% T and 21% J1.
 
The Levantine regions (Lebanon, Syria, Israel,) show about 1-8% T (we know Jordanians have 21% nationally) and Yemenites have 4% (although UAE and Oman have 10%.) eastern turkey has 6%, but western Iran has 13% and central Iraq has 10-15%. Northern Iraq has 5-20% depending on the particular region.
 
this is the map; T frequencies are underlined and j1 frequencies are in parentheses securedownload.jpg

These are frequencies for "minority groups" whatever that means, and I'm hoping this map is about y-DNA lol, which I think it is
 
Judging from the underlined values in this map, T is certainly more frequent towards Iran/Iraq than the levant, Arabian or Anatolian peninsulas, any thoughts ?
 
adamo said:
this is the map; T frequencies are underlined and j1 frequencies are in parenthesesView attachment 6132

These are frequencies for "minority groups" whatever that means, and I'm hoping this map is about y-DNA lol, which I think it is
Click to expand...

the map is about 2 years old and comes from the Armenia forum and it has to do with a link between . locations and there association with the northern Caucasus. It was plotted by someone......maybe Humanist or a colleague, i cannot remember
 
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