N1C spread by trade routes service social class leitzleute, letigalli, lyda, litva

Norvila said:
Silk road, Tarim basin "By studying the variation of SLC24A5 sequences among a diverse set of individuals, we show that the light skin associated allele in South Asians is identical by descent to that found in Europeans."
https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1003912
Litv- placenames
View attachment 10585
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Tarim basin mummies are R1a.
South Asia = India and Iran. For South Asia and Europe unifying is R1a.


How is that even relevant to topic? N1c spread by trade routes...
 
Thank you for being opponent
Rurikid project has about 20% of members with R1a. Radiwillow magnates are both N and R1a.
Upper part of Dneper has concentration of Baltic antonyms also highest % of R1a.
Novgorod controlled areas has also concentration of Baltic antonyms and highest % of N.
Hetero-genetic social class on trade routes always expands faster than mono-genetics tribes in the northern woods. So N expansion trace via highest % communities is less likely.
That was my statement of the post.

R1a-Z280, R1a-M458, N, I2a considered Balto-Slavic as per post had unusual expansion on the trade routes in E.Germany. Also Tarim basin people on the the trade routes has mixture of R1a and N.
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“It doesn’t matter whether a man is a better hunter, owns more land, or more livestock—men with high social status had more children compared to men with low status.” says Adrian Jaeggi, an anthropologist at Emory University who focuses on primate and human behavioral ecology. https://www.futurity.org/men-status-reproduction-1258742-2/
Let's model cooperation - I2a has skills and access to the trade markets, N - access to the resources in form of furs, R1a - in form of agriculture skills or products and trade routes.
Participants makes trade, share profit and gets higher soc.status in the communities they live or visiting therefore better reproductive possibilities.
 
Another example with Genghis Khan?
“Lots of men have lots of sons, by chance. But what normally doesn’t happen is the sons have a high probability of having lots of sons themselves. You have to have a reinforcing effect,” says Jobling. Establishment of such successful lineages often depends on social systems that allow powerful men to father children with multitudes of women.
Three lineages dating to more recent times were all linked to nomadic groups in northeast China and Mongolia. These included the lineages linked to Genghis Khan and Giocangga, plus a third line dating to around ad 850.
All three lineages seem to have expanded westwards, possibly along the Silk Road trade route.
Jobling says that these civilizations could have fostered dominant male lineages after the sons of a fecund founder decamped to satellite outposts, where they, in turn, fathered powerful descendants.
https://www.nature.com/news/genghis-khan-s-genetic-legacy-has-competition-1.16767
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/g...ect-descendants-of-genghis-khan/#.XClNgVOxU0M
 
Direct paralel.
How many descendants had litva decamped Novgorod outposts in the North from 1175 «Литва встала на Корелу»? http://karel.su/230-litva-vstala-na-korelu.html
Narimantas or Narymunt (baptized Gleb, born in 1277 or just before 1300 (according to Wasilewski 1992) – 2 February 1348) was the second eldest son of Gediminas, Grand Duke of Lithuania. During various periods of his life, he ruled Pinsk and Polatsk. In 1333 he was invited by Novgorod's nobles to rule and protect territories in the north, Ladoga, Oreshek and Korela.[1] He continued the tradition of Lithuanian mercenary service north of Novgorod on the Swedish border that lasted until Novgorod's fall to Moscow in 1477.[2]
prisoner. The Muscovite ruler, Ivan Kalita, ransomed him from Tatars, keeping him as hostage in Moscow for a few years.
Narimantas travelled to Jani Beg, Khan of the Golden Horde, asking for support against Algirdas. Though he failed to solicit support, he is rumoured to have married a Tatar princess.[3] (possibly as second wife.)
His documented descendants include Princes Kurakin, Galitzine, Khovansky, Korecki.[1]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narimantas
 
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Y6075 in Central Europe is most likely associated with Early Slavic migrations. We're talking about 1500-2000 BP. You know, the Great Migration period. It is well known that they spread from Dnieper Southwards. It could come from Bogaczewo culture, which was influenced by the Przeworsk culture (a Germanic/Slavic hybrid). In any case, it's got nothing to do with Lithuania, Lithuanians or any dynasties since Y6075 originated 2700 BP.
 
Are you OK? Do you have some mental health issues? What trade routes existed 8,000 years ago in post-glacial Northern Europe?
 
Thank you, I'm O.K.
Have you noticed time period you can adjust on the right side?
 
It appears mongols also were highly involve in trade routes.
"... there was a treaty signed around 1221(between the Venetian and Mongol empires). It’s not clear to me how much is known about the treaty proper, but the sense I have of it is that it was a commercial agreement. In return for exclusive trading rights around the Black Sea, Venice would make payments to the Mongol empire. It has been suggested that the Mongols gained intelligence about what was going on in Europe, and most usefully about the chaotic political situation in Russia, but that sounds like an incidental side-effect of ongoing contact between Venice and the Mongols, not specific terms of the treaty. Either way, the Mongols held up their end, maintaining good trading relations with the Venetians while sacking ports used by Venice’s rivals."
 
Norvila said:
https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/ graphs match spread of N locations with the trade routes and connect with the Silk road locations.
Click to expand...

The vast majority of the lines of "N expansion" from East Asia pass much to the north of the Silk Road, via Kazakhstan, Russia and Mongolia. That's not a strong correlation at all. The Silk Road's final destination was in the East Mediterranean, where Europeans fought many battles to have access to the "oriental trade". Very few arrows go through Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan, via Iran, into the East Mediterranan. The vast majority of the "movements" of N seem to be much more northerly, from China right to North-Central Asia and South Siberia and then spreading and diversifying on all directions in Eastern Europe. I think you're seeing what you want to see in the map.

Anyway, the Silk Road is waaaaaay too recent to have been responsible for the spread of N in Europe. N1c (not N, N1c proper) was already found in the northeasternmost part of Europe (Bolshoi Oleny Ostrov) in DNA from ~3500 years ago, and it must've been present elsewhere in or near Eastern Europe even earlier.
 
Silk road has existed in Roman times and most likely before https://www.britannica.com/topic/Silk-Road-trade-route

Alexander campaign went via Lydia (where there are same number of N carriers today as in Finland) to India (where N has 60% of brahmans) https://www.bible-history.com/maps/alexander_campaigns.html

I haven't noticed N between finds of Большой Олений остров
Mitochondrial haplogroups C*, C5, U5a, U5a1, U4a1, Z1a, D* and T* were identified in fossil remains of the population. According to scientists, the greatest genetic similarity with samples from the Island was shown by modern Siberian populations, mainly in the Yenisei River basin. Presumably, the population of the Island arrived to the Kola Peninsula 3,500 years ago from Central Siberia, https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1003296

It's more likely N spread from South to North via Siberia rivers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_River_Routes#/media/File:Siberiariverroutemap.png


 
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Ygorcs said:
The vast majority of the lines of "N expansion" from East Asia pass much to the north of the Silk Road, via Kazakhstan, Russia and Mongolia. That's not a strong correlation at all. The Silk Road's final destination was in the East Mediterranean, where Europeans fought many battles to have access to the "oriental trade". Very few arrows go through Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan, via Iran, into the East Mediterranan. The vast majority of the "movements" of N seem to be much more northerly, from China right to North-Central Asia and South Siberia and then spreading and diversifying on all directions in Eastern Europe. I think you're seeing what you want to see in the map.

Anyway, the Silk Road is waaaaaay too recent to have been responsible for the spread of N in Europe. N1c (not N, N1c proper) was already found in the northeasternmost part of Europe (Bolshoi Oleny Ostrov) in DNA from ~3500 years ago, and it must've been present elsewhere in or near Eastern Europe even earlier.
Click to expand...
I admire your enthusiasm, but the guy's clearly a nutter. Reading him is like going to a psych ward.
 
Novgorod fur traders expansion north
"It is interesting to remember that Novgorod had started to expand towards the
north in the 13th century. Novgorod that had during the 12th-13th centuries become
an important center for fur trade expanded northwards and built a network of
strongholds along the Northern Russian rivers. Novgorodians had probably reached
the White Sea in the 12th century and settled first by the estuaries of the rivers Dvina
and Onega. From these locations they went on trading and trapping expeditions to
the Kola Peninsula and gradually established certain rights on the southwestern
coast of the peninsula."
"3 Juni 1326, Diplomatarium Norvegicum 1874, 101–102. It is, however, generally considered that
the treaty maintained the border at Malangen. Rafn 1852, 449, 481; Vilkuna 1980, 649."
View attachment 10624
 
Migration north.
The ancestors of Yakuts were Kurykans who migrated from Yenisey river to Lake Baikal and were subject to a certain Mongolian admixture prior to migration [8][9][10] in the 7th century. The Yakuts originally lived around Olkhon and the region of Lake Baikal. Beginning in the 13th century they migrated to the basins of the Middle Lena, the Aldan and Vilyuy rivers under the pressure of the rising Mongols.
The Kurykans (Russian: Курыканы) were a Siberian tribe that inhabited the Lake Baikal area near the Mongol border in the 6th century[1] Early Kurykans migrated from Yenisey river.[2]

Kurykans were largely displaced from their ancestor territories in the 6th c. AD. According to the inscription of the Bilge Kagan, Uch-Kurykans (Union of Three Kurykan tribes, Guligan of the Chinese chronicles) sent their ambassadors to the Bumyn Kagan funeral in 552 and/or his brother Istemi Kagan in 576. Kurykans are listed among the enemies of Ilterish Kagan (r. 682–694), father of Bilge Kagan (r. 717–734). Ilterish Kagan campaigned against Uch-Kurykans 47 times, and gave 20 battles. Kurykans were not the natives of their Western Baikal territory, their distinct burial tradition appears suddenly in the 6th c. Quite logically, they appeared in the Baikal refuge as exiles from some distant place, and equally logically they were a fraction of the larger tribe.
 
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